Week One Discussion of Bereft [ Edited ]

[dhaupt]

Well I don't know how it happened but it's already April 23rd

But that means that we get to start the conversation on Bereft and don't forget Chris will be with us through out the read as well.

I know some of you have already finished the book and by the end of this week I'll post a spoiler friendly thread for you.

Also please just use these questions as a guide and don't hesitate to bring up anything you want to talk about.

Well let's get started

Week one
Bereft

First thoughts

1. In the first part of the novel we get a pretty good look at the Quinn of today and as he reminisces the Quinn of before as well

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

5. Do you know more about this time because of it

6. Quinn visits his mother without his father’s knowledge who is suffering and near death from the flu that is ravaging the whole world

Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

7. How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

8. What are your feelings about Mary

What do you think of the novel so far

[thewanderingjew]

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

[thewanderingjew]

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

I thought the author dealt with the subject very well. Even today, the threat of a flu epidemic puts fear in the hearts of men. Most of us surely remember how frightening the recent threats of the Asian flu, the bird flu, the swine flu and any other possibility of epidemic might be.

The unknown origin of a disease is terrifying because you can't fight a phantom. The helplessness of the victim when there is no medicine to treat them was handled especially well. Superstition often ruled when all else failed, but fear was the largest component of the epidemic, I thought. Victims suffered alone as loved ones would abandon each other. Only someone who had suffered so much, like Quinn, or medical professionals who felt a higher calling, were able to really deal with the disease. and face it squarely.

How fortunate we are today to have modern science which often can forestall or treat these unknown illnesses. However, isn't there still a fear in the scientific world that some new disease will arise and bring about another epidemic?

[thewanderingjew]

I wonder if the author meant for his book to explore the danger of secrets and the misunderstandings that can arise from keeping them?

We frequently come to false conclusions, because we don't know the whole truth. The book made me think about whether or not we have a true obligation to keep a secret if we know that harboring it can cause more pain and problems then the telling of it, which could solve many more. I thought about the practice of confession and the many secrets a man of G-d learns which he cannot repeaet, the lawyer protecting a client and the doctor a patient. What is morally correct? Do we allow many to suffer because of the secret of one lost soul? It is a conundrum, I  think.

[thewanderingjew]

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn?

I was shocked that he would murder his much loved sister and wondered if there had been a rush to judgment, but then he ran away and didn't return which made him so suspect. Their relationship had been thought of as too close, so it made me wonder if he wasn't quite altogether.

[thewanderingjew]

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

[writerfire]

Week one
Bereft

First thoughts

1. In the first part of the novel we get a pretty good look at the Quinn of today and as he reminisces the Quinn of before as well

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

      A bit bitter and unable to let go off things . 

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

No,  I think well.  I understood it.

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

   Yeah.  I thought the flash backs added to the effect.

6. Quinn visits his mother without his father’s knowledge who is suffering and near death from the flu that is ravaging the whole world

7. Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

I though it was good for him to try.

8. How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

Sad,  but adds to the story.

[dhaupt]

---

thewanderingjew wrote:

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

---

TWJ You simply AMAZE me and I'm so glad that you're with us.

I never put the red button with that at all, but I wondered why the author made it stand out so much.

and now you've given me an ah ha moment

[dhaupt]

---

writerfire wrote:

Week one
Bereft

First thoughts

1. In the first part of the novel we get a pretty good look at the Quinn of today and as he reminisces the Quinn of before as well

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

      A bit bitter and unable to let go off things . 

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

No,  I think well.  I understood it.

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

   Yeah.  I thought the flash backs added to the effect.

6. Quinn visits his mother without his father’s knowledge who is suffering and near death from the flu that is ravaging the whole world

7. Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

I though it was good for him to try.

8. How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

Sad,  but adds to the story.

---

Thanks Holly

I know that you're doing this from memory as you don't have the novel any longer and you're doing great

[writerfire]

I trying!  Hahaha a weee bit harder than I thought having read a few books between now and then!

[Ryan_G]

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

I've already finished the book (I can't help myself) so I'm trying to remember my first impression of him.  I think my first reaction was how strong he must be in order to go home, to a place he knows he is not wanted.  I'm not sure I would be able to go home again knowing that people thought I was capable of doing such a thing.  I think it's that strength of will or perhaps the ability to face the past that  I foun to be the most compelling.

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

I knew a little of it, but never really read that much about it.  I think the author uses it, brilliantly, to set a backdrop of a society that feels as if it's on the brink of anihilation.  Nobody really understands what is going on so there is this miasma that just sort of floats above the heads of all the characters.  It sets the entire tone of the book.

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think he does and I was fascinated by the way the PTSD mirrored Quinn's reaction to what happened to his sister.  The first time, he runs away from the trauma and I found it intersting that it takes another trauma to encourage him to face the first one.

5. Do you know more about this time because of it

I can't say as I do, because I felt the book (rightly so) focuses more on Quinn and those that surround him as opposed to the entire country or time period.

7. Did Quinn’s visits with his mother enlighten you more

I think it saddened me more than anything else.  It made me wonder what Quinn would have been able to accomplish if he had stayed.  I wonder if his mother would have been the champion he would have needed in order to face the truth.

8. How do you feel about the author giving her the flu

It was needed to give Quinn a vechile to understand that after he accomplished what needed to be done, the future may not be all that he was hoping for.  

9. What are your feelings about Mary

I'm pretty indiffernt to her to tell you the truth.  I don't think I really ever felt much for her either way.

[Mountain_Muse]

TWJ had done such a great job of starting the conversation on several of the questions, that I want to continue on the same threads.  I may then go back to several of the other questions.

Muse

thewanderingjew wrote:

4. The author spends a lot of time reliving Quinn’s war experiences not only by remembering but by the effects we now know as post traumatic stress syndrome
Did he do a good job of this

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. It brought to mind the suffering of our own soldiers today, in so many fields of battle, and gave me a broader understanding of how they might be capable of doing some horrible things as a result of their trauma. It made me want to forgive them even more, for any transgressions we might learn about, because they have truly suffered for all of us. We make them killing machines and then object when the lines blur for them, after so much hardship. I don't think they need trials and punishment, I think they need to be rehabilitated back into society so they can learn to accept our norms again, not the norms of the battlefield. My heart broke for Quinn as it breaks for the under appreciated men and women in our own armed forces.

---

I agree with TWJ that Chris did a wonderful job of helping us to see and feel the effects of PTSD through the eyes of Quinn.  But I think Quinn's PTSD did not start with WWI, it started with the death of his sister.  There can be no more tramatic event in one's life than the violent death of a loved one.  

Based on the memories that Quinn shared with us about his relationship with Mary and also with the third party observations of his relationship with Mary, they were very, very close.  Some even referred to them as being unnaturally close.  (We'll address this later).  

I think Quinn's flight at her death was a "fight or flight" reaction and he was in a total state of shock when his Dad came upon the scene.  With out going into my suppositions (later question), I think this was the start of his PTSD.  I feel that this is supported by the statement he made about the scene when he was on-board ship and through his medal out to sea.  The medal for bravery had no meaning for him because he did not do anything out of bravery..."He cared not a jot for his own safety:  that was not the same as bravery".  He also talks about how withdrawn and remote he was to the others in his platoon from the beginning of the war, so much so that they gave him the nickname "Meek".    These are all symptoms of PTSD.  What most people don't realize is that PTSD is not limited to "postal or violent" behavior, a person with PTSD can also go to zero and totally withdrawl from the world.

I hope Fred has more to say about this one :-)

Muse

[optic_i]

Week one
Bereft

First thoughts

1. In the first part of the novel we get a pretty good look at the Quinn of today and as he reminisces the Quinn of before as well

I thought Quinn was kind and adored his little sister. He would follow her lead in all the games and adventures they had together.

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn

I had a sense that Quinn needed to be with his sister, He was shy and she was outgoing. Together they complimented each other, they were soul mates.;

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this

How well does the author tell us about it

I thought the author did a great deal to show what the influenza epidemic was like in 1919 in Australia. It reminded me of a time travel book I recently read. A time traveler goes into the very distant future and the only surviving humans live in Australia. Time travelers are not permitted to enter the country because centuries ago another time traveler from the past infected the population with influenza and the human race almost vanished. I also agree with TWJ that the fear and isolation of a plague-like epidemic would have been terrible, and not many people would have stayed to help those infected.

---

[whiteginger]

Oh dear!  Don't shoot me.  I wrote my thoughts in Word this morning and now that I've scrolled down through the other responses to post (copy) my thought, I realize I have written a novel.    Sorry, I guess I do tend to be long-winded.

The rhythm of Womersley’s language, the images and similes—it’s beautiful.  The reading would go really quickly, if I didn’t so often stop to enjoy the echoes of some particular phrase.  At first, afraid that frequent stops would fragment the story line, I tried to tell myself not to reread.  But now, at the end of Part I, I know that all those pauses didn’t hinder my understanding of the story at all; rather, they added to my enjoyment.

 I love the complex layers of Quinn's character.

Meek—His army unit nicknamed him Meek which had much more significance for me than the mere fact that he seemed shy to them.  I immediately associated innocence and thought of the Beatitudes: “Blessed are the meek” . . . Later the lost lamb comes directly to him and he finds a moment of peace (the lamb symbolism was the only literary element I found a bit much at this point—will it reoccurs later?)

Cynical/Hardened by experience—He throws his medal for bravery overboard and seems rather stoic about memories of men who have leapt to their deaths over the rail of the ship . . . After taking his flu mask off on the train and being told that his appearance frightens the children, he “seized by the devil” says they should be frightened (I wondered if he meant frightened of him, that he is an accused murderer; or if he meant frightened of the horrors of life, like the horrors of war scared into his face or perhaps even the horrors of being inexplicably being raped and murdered as Sarah had been) . . . He threatens to kill Edward Fitch’s mother if Fitch says anything about seeing Quinn.  (He does immediately regret having to make that threat.)

Obsessed/Driven/Haunted—obsessed and driven by the feeling that he has been spared to find Sarah’s real murderer. . . haunted by the horrors of war he has witnessed. 

Although Quinn says that he cares nothing for his own life and does not fear death, he is very careful not to be caught by his father or uncle, either of whom would kill him.  I know he is driven to live until he finds justice for Sarah, but I think a part of him just because he’s human wants to live also:  he “succumbed to the gravitational pull of history, of family, of love, and crept to his mother’s bedside.”  Wow.

 Bereft is all-the-more real because of all the little, carefully-selected details about the time period.  I knew nothing about the flu epidemic of 1919 (sorry, that was a bit before my time) but the yellow quarantine flag, the people wearing flu masks on the train and in towns, the women coming on bicycles to deliver food, and the father’s talking to Mary through the window to avoid contact created the reality of that epidemic in my mind.  Quinn’s nightmare about the gas attack and his delusion of the bloody, detached hand at the end of Part I are also vivid realities in my mind.  (Realities in my mind?  Hmmm.)  Quinn, himself, realizes the emotional extremes other soldiers have experienced, but he does not seem conscious of his past traumas being the cause of his weeping, hypersensitivity, etc.

I am intrigued by the portrait of Quinn’s father.  Although the father has unjustly accused Quinn of rape and murder, the father has not been portrayed as a complete villain.  I love how the father’s fascination with all things new and exotic is contrasted with his ethnic biases.  In the flashback of the father recording the children’s heights, Quinn seems to remember these as happy times; his father and mother were laughing, playful.  Quinn recalls specific details of the father’s interactions with his two siblings, but no details of his father’s interactions with him.  Quinn’s mother says that the father is changed since Sarah’s death, that the uncle has been of great help.  What about this uncle?  He is suspect to me.

What do you think of the novel so far?  Isn’t it obvious?  I love it!

[whiteginger]

---

dhaupt wrote:

---

thewanderingjew wrote:

The red button on Sarah's dress intrigued me. Historically, the color red and red amulets have been used to ward off evil.  It is mentioned in the Bible in conjunction with Esau and Jacob, Perez and Zerah, also with Rahab. There are many other instances. Did anyone else notice this and wonder?

---

TWJ You simply AMAZE me and I'm so glad that you're with us.

I never put the red button with that at all, but I wondered why the author made it stand out so much.

and now you've given me an ah ha moment

---

I noted the red button and thought it was just a colorful (no pun intended) detail.  I didn't realize the biblical symbolism.  Hmm does that also explain the red coat on the little girl in Shindler's List? 

[Mountain_Muse]

Great answers, TWR!  Might I add more?

---

thewanderingjew wrote:

3. The author goes to great lengths to expose to us the flu epidemic of 1919
Did you know about this 

How well does the author tell us about it

I thought the author dealt with the subject very well. Even today, the threat of a flu epidemic puts fear in the hearts of men. Most of us surely remember how frightening the recent threats of the Asian flu, the bird flu, the swine flu and any other possibility of epidemic might be.

The unknown origin of a disease is terrifying because you can't fight a phantom. The helplessness of the victim when there is no medicine to treat them was handled especially well. Superstition often ruled when all else failed, but fear was the largest component of the epidemic, I thought. Victims suffered alone as loved ones would abandon each other. Only someone who had suffered so much, like Quinn, or medical professionals who felt a higher calling, were able to really deal with the disease. and face it squarely.

How fortunate we are today to have modern science which often can forestall or treat these unknown illnesses. However, isn't there still a fear in the scientific world that some new disease will arise and bring about another epidemic?

---

According to an article from Standford University:

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.

What struck me was that like, Vietnam, the soldier were isolated and treated as pariah.  There were no homecoming parades and victory balls.  People were afraid of them --- for good reason --  they brought back the Spanish Flu with them from Europe.  

Back then the elixers and other home remedies often made matters worse instead of helping the patient.  Instead of opening windows and allowing ventilation to help dispel the germs, as well as basic antiseptic practices; the patients (victims) were isolated in closed dark rooms with most time little or no care.  

TWJ, I noticed one other "red" reference to the supersitions.  When Quinn was riding out on the train, he saw two girls sitting together with "red" ribbons tied around their wrists to ward off the disease.  Also, many locals seemed to think that it was "Bubonic Plague" going around and did not know what "Enfluenza"  was.  Chris was so great at slipping in these little details that demonstrated the problems that arose during the Pandemic:  lack of communication of information, supersition, mis-diagnosis, lack of proper treatment and care, rural conditions of the area at the time that exasperated all of this.

Into this...Quinn was helpless.  He had some answers, but could not help because of his being wanted for murder...

[Mountain_Muse]

TWJ,

I am going to disagree with you on this.  I do not think he murdered his sister.  Just because people thought that a brother and sister were "too close" and it "wasn't natural", doesn't mean that anything was going on and that he would rape and kill her.  

In fact, I think he came upon the scene and was in a state of shock when his father came upon the same scene and Quinn (in state of shock)  ran...  he never stopped running.   Per my answers to question #2, I think Quinn illustrates classic symptoms of PTSD because of the murder of his sister.  (Did he witness it?)  Unable to deal with it and unable to deal (possibly) with who committed the murder he "checked out".

But.... the rest of what we see to date does not demonstrate his ability to kill in cold blood.

Muse

thewanderingjew wrote:

2. What are your first thoughts on Quinn?

I was shocked that he would murder his much loved sister and wondered if there had been a rush to judgment, but then he ran away and didn't return which made him so suspect. Their relationship had been thought of as too close, so it made me wonder if he wasn't quite altogether.

---

[whiteginger]

---

Mountain_Muse wrote:

TWJ had done such a great job of starting the conversation on several of the questions, that I want to continue on the same threads.  

thewanderingjew wrote:

I think the author did a phenomenal job of examining the effects of the war on Quinn. . . . .

---

I agree with TWJ. . . . 

I think Quinn's flight at her death was a "fight or flight" reaction and he was in a total state of shock when his Dad came upon the scene.  

Edie:  I thought it very interesting that Quinn tried to say something to his father and uncle, but could not be heard over the storm.  "Hearing over the noise" becomes a problem for Quinn after the war.  I don't know where I'm going with that yet.  Just a thought.

With out going into my suppositions (later question), I think this was the start of his PTSD.

Edie:  Me, too.

 I feel that this is supported by the statement he made about the scene when he was on-board ship and through his medal out to sea.  The medal for bravery had no meaning for him because he did not do anything out of bravery..."He cared not a jot for his own safety:  that was not the same as bravery".

Edie :  I 'm with you.   Quinn did not feel that he should be thought of as brave because he had fled when his little sister needed him to avenge her murder.  This was evidence of his PTSD depression.  I loved this line and this nuance on the meaning of bravery, but by the end of Part I, I do think that Quinn is beginning to care about his safety.

 He also talks about how withdrawn and remote he was to the others in his platoon from the beginning of the war, so much so that they gave him the nickname "Meek".    These are all symptoms of PTSD.  What most people don't realize is that PTSD is not limited to "postal or violent" behavior, a person with PTSD can also go to zero and totally withdrawl from the world.

I hope Fred has more to say about this one :-)

Muse

---

[Mountain_Muse]

Ginger,

I love your "novel" :-)

I have shortened it to respond to specific thoughts, if you don't mind. 

---

whiteginger wrote:

Oh dear!  Don't shoot me.  I wrote my thoughts in Word this morning and now that I've scrolled down through the other responses to post (copy) my thought, I realize I have written a novel.    Sorry, I guess I do tend to be long-winded.

Meek—His army unit nicknamed him Meek which had much more significance for me than the mere fact that he seemed shy to them.  I immediately associated innocence and thought of the Beatitudes: “Blessed are the meek” . . . Later the lost lamb comes directly to him and he finds a moment of peace (the lamb symbolism was the only literary element I found a bit much at this point—will it reoccurs later?)

I picked up on this, too.  Meek was an unusual nickname to give someone who is reticent and quiet... those people are usually just bullied and picked on.  So there must be much more behind this name for him to have received such an honorable nickname.

 Although Quinn says that he cares nothing for his own life and does not fear death, he is very careful not to be caught by his father or uncle, either of whom would kill him.  I know he is driven to live until he finds justice for Sarah, but I think a part of him just because he’s human wants to live also:  he “succumbed to the gravitational pull of history, of family, of love, and crept to his mother’s bedside.”  Wow.

I also think he wanted his Mother to know he didn't do it.  Plus he wanted to bring retribution for Sarah so she could rest in peace.

 Bereft is all-the-more real because of all the little, carefully-selected details about the time period. 

I, too love the little details.  It is the attention to these small items that brings the book to life.  Chris isn't just giving us an overview of a story or a period.  He's letting us see it through the eyes of a real person.  We are seeing the things that Quinn "sees".  We are learning to see the things that he notices and the things are are important to him.  Did you pick up on the "why" for all these small details that he notices and sees all the time?  He says it is the new heightened sense that he has developed to compensate for his loss of hearing....but boy do we benefit from it!!  For with this new heightened sense we are seeing bits and pieces of 1919 that we otherwise might never notice.

I really liked the end of part one where he is "hearing" things.  His imagery of being almost deaf and the roaring that he hears all the time, with the heightened other senses and at the same time thinking he is really hearing things that he knows he can't.  

I am intrigued by the portrait of Quinn’s father.  Although the father has unjustly accused Quinn of rape and murder, the father has not been portrayed as a complete villain. 

I have noticed that Christ, to date has not made his characters "extreme".  He has made them human.  Just like us, we have our good points and our bad points...  But the difference between the characters of Bereft and us is about 95 years.  It was a different world then.  There were different attitudes about right/wrong, family discipline, world knowledge (no internet yet :-(  ), and in remote rural areas there were absolutes in some areas of life.  Quinn's father sounds like a wonderful man.  He sounds like a creative, loving father.  But, like Quinn, he reacted when he saw his dead daughter - a knee jerk reaction.  By Quinn's running, he was never provided the opportunity to re-assess and to hear the "rest of the story".  I really do think that if Quinn had not have run, and had been given the opportunity to talk to his father/law, etc.  His father and family would have stood behind him.  But because he ran, the nay-sayers reigned and Quinn was convicted in the court of absence and opinion.  

Muse

---

[dhaupt]

Great responses everyone

there was a lot to talk about in the book so if you want to bring something up besides what's asked please do.

I want to allude to the sanitation/preventative measures that were taken at the end of and during WWI, on page 15 this really struck me:

"At North Head quarantine station, he stood with the rest of the men to be hosed down.-----Armless, many of them:legless: boys and men spattered with burn marks and coin shaped scars.-----

Their luggage was fumigated and afterwards they were forced to inhale a solution of zinc sulfate to clear their lungs and prevent influenza from taking hold."

Almost the cure being more deadly than the disease plus the ravages of war and I think that Chris did a marvelous job bringing it to us. 

In my review i said that it often reminded me of a much longer book and this is one of the reasons, in just a few paragraphs he conveys what might take other authors a whole chapter and does it so that his audience can really take it in.