Week two Discussion of Claude & Camille [ Edited ]

[dhaupt]

Claude & Camille
Week Two

1- Claude and Camille start their life together and is loved by all his friends and loves them all in return, but love can’t buy groceries( and where do we find them but in a place that may be familiar to some of you back in Pigalle)
Are you surprised how little these artists had financially

2- Camille gives Claude a son Jean
Are the couple happy about this turn of events

3- Claude and Camille go to his mentor’s cottage in Le Havre for Claude to paint, even though he wins second prize in the competition is doesn’t result in sales and both Camille and Claude are sinking into their own form of depression
Do you think if Claude had confided in Camille about what he was feeling that she would have left Jean cold, wet and hungry or did the two not have anything binding on each other

4- Frédéric’s family goes back on their pledge to sponsor the artists showing which leaves most of the artists destitute
Are you surprised that they didn’t blame Frédéric for it but empathized and only were concerned why he left in such a rush

5- With no money and feeling useless Claude looses his passion and goes home to take over the shop as his father is ill with cancer, he also forbids Camille of any of his friends to come see him
Do you think he would have found his passion again without Boudin’s help

6- Claude and Camille marry and as Claude goes to seek out Frédéric when he disappears from the reception he finds out that it was Frédéric who was Camille’s first lover
Did that surprise you

6a-Did that answer the question of why he bought the painting of the picnickers

7- As this week’s part ends Claude and Camille leave for England on hearing that France had declared war on Prussia, Claude’s first thought is to send Camille to England alone but then he decides to not join the army and go with her
Why do you think he didn’t join

And Stephanie this is for you
Why did Victoire have to go like that 

Here are some paintings of this period

La Pie
The Magpie
Claude MONET 1869
Musée d'Orsay, Paris

Infantry Guards Wandering Along the River

1870

Train in the Countryside

1870

Jean Monet in his cradle

1867

Jean Monet Sleeping

1868

[StephanieCowell]

FROM THE AUTHOR FOR DEBBIE:

Oh dear, well I was writing the scene and Victoire just ran away from Camille. I think perhaps it was a symbol of all she was losing.

ANOTHER QUESTION TO THE READER:

I have thought a lot about Claude's father not wanting to help him any more, particularly when it is no longer just Claude he is helping to support but Claude's wife and his child. We can look back and say, "Oh but he should have helped more! I mean this was Claude Monet!"  What do any of you think from both points of view, the parent and the gifted grown son?

[aprilh]

I knew these artists struggled financially, but not to the extent that this novel showed. I was surprised at how many times Claude and Camille had to move because the rent came due and they could not afford to pay it. In fact, I lost track of how many times in this section alone that they were forced to move. This group of artists were very inspiring, proving how determined they were to make a name for themselves, no matter what the cost.

Camille is overjoyed at finding out she is pregnant, but Claude tries to tell her she is mistaken. When he finally does realize she is in fact pregnant, he leaves for Le Havre to ask his father and aunt for money to help. I think most of his denial about the baby came from the fear of not knowing how he would financially support Camille and himself, let alone a baby.

Claude and Camille were not very good at communicating with one another. Every time there became an issue with money, Claude felt the need to hide it from Camille, but eventually she found out, which just created more problems between them. The more Claude worried about money the less he slept and the more withdrawn he became. She was desperate for him to pay attention to her, to talk with her, but his refusal upset her. In an effort to try to get Claude to open up to her, Camille tells him about a time when she was sixteen and ran away with an actor. He questions her if that was who she was writing to when they first met, but then says he's not in the mood to hear it. She says it took courage to tell him her secret and he leaves the cottage. I think if Claude would have talked with Camille about what was bothering him, she wouldn't have felt so shut out and she wouldn't have left Jean alone that night.

This was a tight group of friends that truly cared for one another and only wanted what was best for each other. They would have given any of their friends everything they had if they thought it would help so it wasn't surprising to me that they never blamed Frederic, but were only concerned for him.

After cutting his wrist with a razor, Claude went back to Le Havre, leaving without telling anyone, except for a note to Camille. He tried to get his passion for painting back alone by trying to paint the seascape, but couldn't bring his charcoal to the canvas. After that experience, I felt that he had completely given up trying to get his love for painting back. I think without Boudin challenging him, Claude would not have tried painting again or at least not for a long time. It became a full circle that Boudin was the man who first taught Claude how to paint and was then the same man who helped him recapture his passion.

I was shocked when I read that Frederic was Camille's first lover. Or maybe floored is more like it. I did not see that coming. Frederic thought he would break off his engagement and find Camille to be with her, but Claude had found her in the mean time. In that moment many pieces to the puzzle of what was bothering Frederic recently started to fall into place. It explained why he had bought Claude's painting of the picnickers with the "four" Camilles and why he had become so unhappy. Frederic became jealous that Claude was with Camille and when they got married Frederic couldn't keep his feelings hidden anymore.

A part of me felt that the reason Claude went with Camille to England was because he didn't feel he could trust her. After finding out that she never told him about being with Frederic I think he was afraid to leave her. I think he considered joining the army because of the guilt he felt at having hit Frederic and never patching things up between them.

[aprilh]

---

StephanieCowell wrote:

FROM THE AUTHOR FOR DEBBIE:

Oh dear, well I was writing the scene and Victoire just ran away from Camille. I think perhaps it was a symbol of all she was losing.

ANOTHER QUESTION TO THE READER:

I have thought a lot about Claude's father not wanting to help him any more, particularly when it is no longer just Claude he is helping to support but Claude's wife and his child. We can look back and say, "Oh but he should have helped more! I mean this was Claude Monet!"  What do any of you think from both points of view, the parent and the gifted grown son?

---

Stephanie, great question. I found myself torn on this subject while reading. At times I would find myself furious with Claude's father for not helping his son out financially if he had the means to do so. I wanted him to believe in his son's gift for painting and help him achieve his dream. I did soften toward him when he offered to support Claude for two years after his aunt bought him out of the army. In his own way, I felt that was his father's way of showing Claude he not only had his financial support, but his emotional support too.

After Camille became pregnant with Jean though, I became frustrated with Claude for not finding a way to support himself and his new family. I didn't want him to give up his painting, but I felt that he needed to grow up a little a become more responsible for his family's financial situation. I felt he could have found a job on the side and still have time to paint. Camille was very understanding with Claude encouraging him to paint and insisting he didn't need a job, but even she had a breaking point where she told him he needed to find work. I was disappointed in Claude when he got the job with Auguste painting the walls in the restaurant and then quits because he didn't want to listen to what the owner wanted. I felt that he put no effort in trying to keep that job even though his family desperately needed the money. 

[dhaupt]

April, I never thought about it this way

A part of me felt that the reason Claude went with Camille to England was because he didn't feel he could trust her. After finding out that she never told him about being with Frederic I think he was afraid to leave her. I think he considered joining the army because of the guilt he felt at having hit Frederic and never patching things up between them.

as usual I get to view the story from yet another angle.

[StephanieCowell]

FROM THE AUTHOR:

I think Claude was a man who couldn't compromise! He ended up being very successful but it took him a long time. Book clubs are very interested in discussing why he did or did not take a job. By the way, April, his frequency of moving and poverty in real life were greater than I portrayed! Once he got thrown out of an inn in the middle of the night stark naked! Oh and Renoir really did paint cafe walls to earn money but they have all disappeared.

[dhaupt]

---

StephanieCowell wrote:

FROM THE AUTHOR:

I think Claude was a man who couldn't compromise! He ended up being very successful but it took him a long time. Book clubs are very interested in discussing why he did or did not take a job. By the way, April, his frequency of moving and poverty in real life were greater than I portrayed! Once he got thrown out of an inn in the middle of the night stark naked! Oh and Renoir really did paint cafe walls to earn money but they have all disappeared.

---

Thank you Stephanie for bringing even more reality to our discussion. 

it's funny you mention the poverty, my daughter and I had a long discussion on our way to Easter celebration at my sister's on Saturday and we were comparing mindsets between painters and composers which many also lived in poverty.

She who of course is a student of the arts told me that all eras follow a certain rhythm it starts with literarture then art and finally followed by music. Do you agree with this Stephanie.

I often wonder what we as parents would be willing to give up to support what may seem like foolish endevours of our children, how many geniuses have not been supported or did compromise and so how many greats have we lost.

I'm glad he didn't compromise, although in my very "practical" mindset I don't know if I would have or could have supported him if he had been my child.

scary to think that way isn't it. 

[StephanieCowell]

FROM THE AUTHOR:

Debbie, I am not sure what your daughter means by the rhythm of art. Can you explain?

I think so many people in the world (not just the arts!) do not have enough support to help them really get going, Heaven knows what brilliant people live in third world countries and what they could give to the world if they had the chance!

One of the reasons I was so passionately interested in writing this book was because most of my friends have struggled in the arts and had a very difficult time keeping a normal life  (love, family) and still doing what was in their heart. There are certainly far greater struggles in the world, but this is one I have known closely.

I also think that any woman (or man) who has a partner so devoted to their work will suffer a little. The work becomes sort of the "other woman."

[ReadingPatti]

Claude & Camille
Week Two

1- Claude and Camille start their life together and is loved by all his friends and loves them all in return, but love can’t buy groceries( and where do we find them but in a place that may be familiar to some of you back in Pigalle)
Are you surprised how little these artists had financially, No, because at that time the impressionists were new to the art world. I am not sure that the critics or public knew what to make of them.

2- Camille gives Claude a son Jean
Are the couple happy about this turn of events=Yes, and no. I think they were both worried about how they would take care of him.

3- Claude and Camille go to his mentor’s cottage in Le Havre for Claude to paint, even though he wins second prize in the competition is doesn’t result in sales and both Camille and Claude are sinking into their own form of depression
Do you think if Claude had confided in Camille about what he was feeling that she would have left Jean cold, wet and hungry or did the two not have anything binding on each other

 No, I think he needed to tell her. But she loved him so much that she finally came back.

4- Frédéric’s family goes back on their pledge to sponsor the artists showing which leaves most of the artists destitute
Are you surprised that they didn’t blame Frédéric for it but empathized and only were concerned why he left in such a rush-Yes, they were counting on them. Frederic's leaving was a surprise to me. If he really believed in the artists he should have done more to help them not just leave without saying anything.

5- With no money and feeling useless Claude looses his passion and goes home to take over the shop as his father is ill with cancer, he also forbids Camille of any of his friends to come see him
Do you think he would have found his passion again without Boudin’s help-Yes, Claude was meant to paint. If you have that kind of passion you can't just give it up. It will eventually eat you up if you don't do what you are meant to do.

6- Claude and Camille marry and as Claude goes to seek out Frédéric when he disappears from the reception he finds out that it was Frédéric who was Camille’s first lover
Did that surprise you-No, Claude had to know that Camille had a lover before they meet.

6a-Did that answer the question of why he bought the painting of the picnickers-I think he really like it and wanted some of Claude's and some to help them since his family did not sponsor the artists.

7- As this week’s part ends Claude and Camille leave for England on hearing that France had declared war on Prussia, Claude’s first thought is to send Camille to England alone but then he decides to not join the army and go with her
Why do you think he didn’t join-Ithink that Claude felt that he could not kill people. He also loved her and their son so much.

[dhaupt]

---

StephanieCowell wrote:

FROM THE AUTHOR:

Debbie, I am not sure what your daughter means by the rhythm of art. Can you explain?

I think so many people in the world (not just the arts!) do not have enough support to help them really get going, Heaven knows what brilliant people live in third world countries and what they could give to the world if they had the chance!

One of the reasons I was so passionately interested in writing this book was because most of my friends have struggled in the arts and had a very difficult time keeping a normal life  (love, family) and still doing what was in their heart. There are certainly far greater struggles in the world, but this is one I have known closely.

I also think that any woman (or man) who has a partner so devoted to their work will suffer a little. The work becomes sort of the "other woman."

---

Stephanie maybe I'm doing a bad job of explaining it, let me try again. She told me that in ever era Renaissance, Victorian, Romantic, Modern ect.. it follows a certain path lead by first literature, then painting and finally music. I hope that is clearer.

I also agree with you about people devoted to their art suffering, it's hard to make a living from your passion unless you happen to be in the minute minority who make it to the big time. My daughter is also a good example, she doesn't make a living of singing, she has to implement it and it tears my heart out sometimes.

[dhaupt]

---

ReadingPatti wrote:

Claude & Camille
Week Two

1- Claude and Camille start their life together and is loved by all his friends and loves them all in return, but love can’t buy groceries( and where do we find them but in a place that may be familiar to some of you back in Pigalle)
Are you surprised how little these artists had financially, No, because at that time the impressionists were new to the art world. I am not sure that the critics or public knew what to make of them.

2- Camille gives Claude a son Jean
Are the couple happy about this turn of events=Yes, and no. I think they were both worried about how they would take care of him.

3- Claude and Camille go to his mentor’s cottage in Le Havre for Claude to paint, even though he wins second prize in the competition is doesn’t result in sales and both Camille and Claude are sinking into their own form of depression
Do you think if Claude had confided in Camille about what he was feeling that she would have left Jean cold, wet and hungry or did the two not have anything binding on each other

 No, I think he needed to tell her. But she loved him so much that she finally came back.

4- Frédéric’s family goes back on their pledge to sponsor the artists showing which leaves most of the artists destitute
Are you surprised that they didn’t blame Frédéric for it but empathized and only were concerned why he left in such a rush-Yes, they were counting on them. Frederic's leaving was a surprise to me. If he really believed in the artists he should have done more to help them not just leave without saying anything.

5- With no money and feeling useless Claude looses his passion and goes home to take over the shop as his father is ill with cancer, he also forbids Camille of any of his friends to come see him
Do you think he would have found his passion again without Boudin’s help-Yes, Claude was meant to paint. If you have that kind of passion you can't just give it up. It will eventually eat you up if you don't do what you are meant to do.

6- Claude and Camille marry and as Claude goes to seek out Frédéric when he disappears from the reception he finds out that it was Frédéric who was Camille’s first lover
Did that surprise you-No, Claude had to know that Camille had a lover before they meet.

6a-Did that answer the question of why he bought the painting of the picnickers-I think he really like it and wanted some of Claude's and some to help them since his family did not sponsor the artists.

7- As this week’s part ends Claude and Camille leave for England on hearing that France had declared war on Prussia, Claude’s first thought is to send Camille to England alone but then he decides to not join the army and go with her
Why do you think he didn’t join-Ithink that Claude felt that he could not kill people. He also loved her and their son so much.

---

Thanks Patti, great answers

[StephanieCowell]

FROM THE AUTHOR:

Patti, I think Frédéric was in such pain and confusion when his father found out about his bisexuality that he just ran away, I think he felt he had betrayed everyone. His enlisting to fight was also an impulse out of conflict and pain. Characters often surprise the author, taking on a depth I never expected. I intended to paint F as the stable character, but in the end he was the least stable, the most emotional and tending to act out of panic and idealism. And you know....I never saw this before now! (P.S. In early versions of the novel, Frédéric was the main character!)

Debbie, I think of all the arts, classical music and classical dance are the most difficult to sustain. Both these require so much financial investment and also require huge amounts of practice a day (maybe 3-5 hours for a professional-level musician). But wherever they sing or play, their fortunate audiences are thrilled and do not forget them! Some of the most beautiful voices today are found in churches, tiny concerts and small opera companies.

[whiteginger]

I'm late!  I'm late!  My computer died Tuesday morning--right in the middle of taxes!  Up and running now and taxes are safely e-filed.  Here are my thoughts on part II.  (after I read other responses, I'm sure I'll have other thoughts, too)

Claude & Camille
Week Two

I was not at all surprised by the poor, rough life Claude and Camille led.  As I said before, I have this stereotypical image of “starving artist living in tiny, poorly lit, grimy grotto” and their lifestyle conformed quite nicely to that.  I WAS surprised by Claude’s reaction to Camille’s pregnancy.  (Not knowing the real history, for a moment I thought for sure Camille was going to have an abortion with horrible consequences, ultimately linked with her mysterious death.)  Camille’s belief in the tea leaf readings,  Claude’s belief that Camille wanted a child to compete with her sister who was also pregnant, and Claude’s remembrances of Camille’s being good with children were nice additions to Camille’s character.  I was, again, surprised when Claude asks his father for money that he does not say he “loves” Camille.  He mentions, instead, that his father had a mistress and says this is “a temporary thing” – I assume he meant the gift of money for the coming child.   

When Camille leaves the baby in the cottage, I thought I was finally going to learn about her mysterious emotional disturbance.  Even if Claude had told Camille that he, too, was depressed, I think Camille has her own demons and would have needed to escape at that moment.

When Claude secludes himself in Normandy and refuses to see or communicate with anyone, I was extremely glad for Boudin’s intervention.  Without Boudin, Claude would have languished and died, artistically (emotionally) and perhaps even physically.  During this period, I also worried for Camille and the baby.  Although Camille loves children and keeps the house so neat immediately after Jean is born, her emotional/mental instability that her sister has mentioned, is always in the back of my mind.

Finding that Frederic was Camille’s first lover—BIG surprise!  (Duh!  I should have suspected that when he bought the picture, but I was oblivious.)  I have really enjoyed the letters to, conversations with, and interactions between Frederic and Claude; I felt deflated that this friendship was ending and in such hurt and anger.

Why didn’t Claude join the army as Frederic had done?  He wants to keep Camille and the baby safe?  He worries that he might be killed and that Frederic will live happily-ever-after with Camille?  He feels his talent must be saved?    I guess you can tell—I haven’t figured that out.

[StephanieCowell]

FROM THE AUTHOR

I will be away for a few days without computer and will continue disussion happily when I get back. Whiteginger, in one earlier draft of the novel Camille does go for an abortion and then decides she can't. I think from information we have that she and Claude did discuss ending the pregnancy but quickly decided not to do that.(P.S. this novel changed in its drafts more than any other I have written!)

[dhaupt]

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whiteginger wrote:

I'm late!  I'm late!  My computer died Tuesday morning--right in the middle of taxes!  Up and running now and taxes are safely e-filed.  Here are my thoughts on part II.  (after I read other responses, I'm sure I'll have other thoughts, too)

Claude & Camille
Week Two

I was not at all surprised by the poor, rough life Claude and Camille led.  As I said before, I have this stereotypical image of “starving artist living in tiny, poorly lit, grimy grotto” and their lifestyle conformed quite nicely to that.  I WAS surprised by Claude’s reaction to Camille’s pregnancy.  (Not knowing the real history, for a moment I thought for sure Camille was going to have an abortion with horrible consequences, ultimately linked with her mysterious death.)  Camille’s belief in the tea leaf readings,  Claude’s belief that Camille wanted a child to compete with her sister who was also pregnant, and Claude’s remembrances of Camille’s being good with children were nice additions to Camille’s character.  I was, again, surprised when Claude asks his father for money that he does not say he “loves” Camille.  He mentions, instead, that his father had a mistress and says this is “a temporary thing” – I assume he meant the gift of money for the coming child.   

When Camille leaves the baby in the cottage, I thought I was finally going to learn about her mysterious emotional disturbance.  Even if Claude had told Camille that he, too, was depressed, I think Camille has her own demons and would have needed to escape at that moment.

When Claude secludes himself in Normandy and refuses to see or communicate with anyone, I was extremely glad for Boudin’s intervention.  Without Boudin, Claude would have languished and died, artistically (emotionally) and perhaps even physically.  During this period, I also worried for Camille and the baby.  Although Camille loves children and keeps the house so neat immediately after Jean is born, her emotional/mental instability that her sister has mentioned, is always in the back of my mind.

Finding that Frederic was Camille’s first lover—BIG surprise!  (Duh!  I should have suspected that when he bought the picture, but I was oblivious.)  I have really enjoyed the letters to, conversations with, and interactions between Frederic and Claude; I felt deflated that this friendship was ending and in such hurt and anger.

Why didn’t Claude join the army as Frederic had done?  He wants to keep Camille and the baby safe?  He worries that he might be killed and that Frederic will live happily-ever-after with Camille?  He feels his talent must be saved?    I guess you can tell—I haven’t figured that out.

---

wow, so sorry about the computer, glad your linked in again

Great thoughts whiteginger- when I first found out that Frédéric was Camille's first lover I too thought that it was something I should have seen.

Thanks for coming to the party, we'll take you early, late anyway we can get you

[dhaupt]

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StephanieCowell wrote:

FROM THE AUTHOR

I will be away for a few days without computer and will continue disussion happily when I get back. Whiteginger, in one earlier draft of the novel Camille does go for an abortion and then decides she can't. I think from information we have that she and Claude did discuss ending the pregnancy but quickly decided not to do that.(P.S. this novel changed in its drafts more than any other I have written!)

---

Stephanie, I hope you're going somewhere fun, we'll chat with you when you return

thank you again for being such a wonderful feature and chatting with us all this time.

[dhaupt]

Well unbelievably it's the end of Week Two and we'll finish the read and the conversation next week

I hope you are all enjoying this month's read as much as I am.

Here's another painting of Monet's beloved Water Lilies

"Nymphéas"
Claude MONET 1916
National Museum of Western Art, Tokio

[whiteginger]

More thoughts and reactions . . . 

APRIL WROTE: 

Every time there became an issue with money, Claude felt the need to hide it from Camille, but eventually she found out, which just created more problems between them. The more Claude worried about money the less he slept and the more withdrawn he became. She was desperate for him to pay attention to her, to talk with her, but his refusal upset her. . . A part of me felt that the reason Claude went with Camille to England was because he didn't feel he could trust her. 

I always felt that Camille was very aware of the money situation, but April I do think you're right that she wanted Claude to confide in her.  I very much think that Camille wanted a stable home life, a stable family and marriage.  A shame that with her own instabilities, she is drawn to other unstable, moody characters.

PATTI WROTE:  Are the couple happy about this turn of events=Yes, and no. I think they were both worried about how they would take care of him.. . . (about Boudin's role in reviving Monet's artistic passion) Claude was meant to paint. If you have that kind of passion you can't just give it up. It will eventually eat you up if you don't do what you are meant to do.

Funny, I thought of Camille as unrealistic, living in a fairytale world, at this time.  I had never thought that she, too might be worried about how she would take care of a child; but I do think that she was always aware of the money situation, so she must have had some concerns, too. . . .  Claude was awfully depressed at that time (this is after the suicide attempt), but he--and Camille--have this amazing ability to bounce back.  And he was meant to paint.

STEPHANIE WROTE:  I think Frédéric was in such pain and confusion when his father found out about his bisexuality that he just ran away, I think he felt he had betrayed everyone. His enlisting to fight was also an impulse out of conflict and pain. Characters often surprise the author, taking on a depth I never expected. I intended to paint F as the stable character, but in the end he was the least stable, the most emotional and tending to act out of panic and idealism.

His bisexuality!?!  OMG, that explains so much.  How did I miss that?  Frederic tells Claude that Claude just doesn't understand.  Well, I didn't understand either.  I still see Frederic's joining the army as "running away" although he could be said to be running from an idealistic view which he and his friends can never accomplish.  Frederic less stable than Camille? Than Claude?  I'm not there yet.  And Frederic is still my favorite character.  

[dhaupt]

STEPHANIE WROTE:  I think Frédéric was in such pain and confusion when his father found out about his bisexuality that he just ran away, I think he felt he had betrayed everyone. His enlisting to fight was also an impulse out of conflict and pain. Characters often surprise the author, taking on a depth I never expected. I intended to paint F as the stable character, but in the end he was the least stable, the most emotional and tending to act out of panic and idealism.

His bisexuality!?!  OMG, that explains so much.  How did I miss that?  Frederic tells Claude that Claude just doesn't understand.  Well, I didn't understand either.  I still see Frederic's joining the army as "running away" although he could be said to be running from an idealistic view which he and his friends can never accomplish.  Frederic less stable than Camille? Than Claude?  I'm not there yet.  And Frederic is still my favorite character.  

Ooops, a bit of spoiler here -- Oh well we're really close to the finish

[Fozzie]

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StephanieCowell wrote:

FROM THE AUTHOR:

By the way, April, his frequency of moving and poverty in real life were greater than I portrayed! Once he got thrown out of an inn in the middle of the night stark naked! 

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WOW!