Week two discussion of A Deeper Darkness

[dhaupt]

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Catherine111 wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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True Catherine, but you have to remember that it's been two years since the flood, she's been in a daze for all that time and now she looses someone else that used to be special to her. We'll discuss this more after the read is over and we'll see if you still feel the same way.

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I'm sorry. I'll stop driving you, myself, and everyone else crazy!  I'm sure Sam (and J.T.) will convert me in the end. 

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Don't stop that's why this board is so much fun, we love to disagree and love to talk about disagreeing, and love to drive each other

keep at it

[Mountain_Muse]

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Catherine111 wrote:

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dhaupt wrote:

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True Catherine, but you have to remember that it's been two years since the flood, she's been in a daze for all that time and now she looses someone else that used to be special to her. We'll discuss this more after the read is over and we'll see if you still feel the same way.

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I'm sorry. I'll stop driving you, myself, and everyone else crazy!  I'm sure Sam (and J.T.) will convert me in the end. 

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Catherine,

I'm with Deb.  Don't stop expressing your opinion.  That's part of the fun here.  We all see things differently and read books through our life's experiences.  It is the proof of a good Author that broad interpretations can come out and be defended.  This is mild compared to some discussions we've had.  

As to my two cents, death does interesting things to people. (those left behind).  We all never know how we will react until we have been thrust into that position.  We never know what coping mechanisms will come forth and that we will grasp and hang on to for dear life to carry us through the morass of grief, fear, and on-slaught of emotion that comes with the after-shock the tragic death of a dear one(s).  Sam backed up behind her clinical, analytical mind and tucked her grief into a box that could be pushed back by compulsively performing a ritual of her job that she did on a daily basis.  The cleansing of her hands in the work setting allowed her to remove all remanants of the last autopsy (brush and interaction with death) and proceed to the next job, carrying none of the taint of the last tragedy with her to the next case.  It was easy to transfer the analogy of that procedure to what her mind and soul were trying to handle with the loss of her family.  Every time she went through the ritual she knew she needed to move on.  She needed to leave the past and go forward....

Now enters the biggest "thing" she has ever left behind in her life, other than her family and she has to deal with this emotional dynamite situation.  All the old emotions, the old memories, the old guilts, everything have come rushing back at her...she is all out of defense systems agaisnt it all....but stays the course, because she must for his mom and his family....just like with her family, guilt keeps her moving forward...if it wasn't for that, she'd tuck tail and run for the woods.  

Right?  Wrong?  I feel her pain.  This is the way I read and lived the story with Sam .. much identified with the reality of going through such a tragedy with my son in his loss and watching him grapple with the demons of "what if" for a full year before finally being able to move on with his life.   Each of us identify with someone different in the story and can "see" the story through their eyes more clearly than through the others.  Who is yours?

Muse

[whiteginger]

Catherine, I love discussion!  And there is no discussion without differences of opinion.  BTW--I thought  I  was driving everyone else crazy.  Whew!  Glad to know I had that wrong!  

Although I really like Sam overall, I certainly don't like her every moment; but her complexity--the fact that she has moments when I don't like her (talking about settling for her safe husband/life in Nashville, thinking Fletcher is coming on to her as if she is irresistible )--makes me REALLY like her as a character.  How's that for circular reasoning?  Catherine, you said it best early in our discussion:

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Catherine wrote:  . . . Whatever difficulty I have with Sam, there is no doubting she is a very realistic character.  . . . Donovan.  From everything we’ve seen of him (the first chapter was really descriptive), along with the memories of the three women who loved him, I think he was really a decent guy.  I want to know just what or who he was protecting when he died. . . . 

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And like April, I agree with you about Donovan.  So, for me, Sam is this realistic, complex character who seems to be liked by everyone who meets her (even Susan grudgingly seems to like her or at least realizes she is trying to help)  and who was loved by Donovan, a character I instinctively really liked.  I can also respect the fact that Sam continues to do her job well even though her personal losses/problems have caused her to hate that job.

I am intrigued by Sam.  She doesn't let anyone get too close to her, and unfortunately, I think that includes readers. (That's certainly how I felt at the beginning of the novel!) But then again, that makes me want to know her even more.  I'm not sure she is the "best friend" type, but to me at least, she certainly is fascinating.

It will be interesting to see how much she has opened herself to other characters (and to readers) by the end of the novel.  

[Catherine111]

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

 

Each of us identify with someone different in the story and can "see" the story through their eyes more clearly than through the others.  Who is yours?

Muse

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I don’t really see the novel through anyone’s eyes.  If I had to choose a character, maybe it would be Fletcher, because when I read a mystery, I am trying to figure out what clues left by the author are vital to the outcome and what clues are not really clues at all.  I find Sam’s distractions a distraction for me, it makes it hard for me to focus on getting the business of solving the crime done.  I’m not sure if that is a device used my J.T., to bring the reader into the chaos that is Sam’s world, but that is certainly working on me.

I’ve been thinking about Sam a lot, which is a credit to J.T. Ellison, because it shows the depth of this character.  I’ve come to conclude that it is a personal thing for me and hits a bit close to home.  Last year my mother-in-law died unexpectedly.  My husband’s family is more than dysfunctional.  The death of his mother brought out some truly ugly behaviors from different family members that are hard to forgive and even harder to forget.  At one point I had to say, “Look, he lost his mother too.”  Grief can be all-consuming and oftentimes we shut out people or lash out at people who can actually help us in the healing process.  So I understand that grief manifests itself in many ways and we cannot control the emotions and actions of others.  Sam is trying to cope and I understand that.  Truly, I don’t dislike her.  I find her frustrating, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.  She sure is taking up a lot of space in my thought process during this book discussion!

[dhaupt]

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Catherine111 wrote:

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Mountain_Muse wrote:

 

Each of us identify with someone different in the story and can "see" the story through their eyes more clearly than through the others.  Who is yours?

Muse

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I don’t really see the novel through anyone’s eyes.  If I had to choose a character, maybe it would be Fletcher, because when I read a mystery, I am trying to figure out what clues left by the author are vital to the outcome and what clues are not really clues at all.  I find Sam’s distractions a distraction for me, it makes it hard for me to focus on getting the business of solving the crime done.  I’m not sure if that is a device used my J.T., to bring the reader into the chaos that is Sam’s world, but that is certainly working on me.

I’ve been thinking about Sam a lot, which is a credit to J.T. Ellison, because it shows the depth of this character.  I’ve come to conclude that it is a personal thing for me and hits a bit close to home.  Last year my mother-in-law died unexpectedly.  My husband’s family is more than dysfunctional.  The death of his mother brought out some truly ugly behaviors from different family members that are hard to forgive and even harder to forget.  At one point I had to say, “Look, he lost his mother too.”  Grief can be all-consuming and oftentimes we shut out people or lash out at people who can actually help us in the healing process.  So I understand that grief manifests itself in many ways and we cannot control the emotions and actions of others.  Sam is trying to cope and I understand that.  Truly, I don’t dislike her.  I find her frustrating, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.  She sure is taking up a lot of space in my thought process during this book discussion!

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Catherine, first I'm sorry for your loss, second isn't it true how our own life experiences reflect what and how we read.

A personal example is that I was once asked to read/review a novel which promoted a woman leaving her husband and children and "finding true love" in the arms of another man, could not read it, didn't want to.

Second it is a tribute to JT that Sam has been taking a lot of your thoughts.

I hope that the family situation will get better

and thank you again for your comments and thoughts

You fit in really well with this book club forum as we love to really dig into a novel, almost like it was real.

[elaine_hf]

A little late to the game - sorry about that! I'll try to add in my own two cents' worth, where it makes sense. But first, Catherine I really am truly sorry for your loss, and maybe more sorry for the loss of your vision of your husband's family. Death brings out the worst in some people - we went through something very similar with the loss of my husband's father. Never thought I'd see that ugly side of people, hope I won't see it again. But maybe that's not realistic. I just wanted you to know that you're not alone, and I hope that time will help heal some of those wounds.

I have one comment about this section, and maybe no one else shares this feeling. In the bar, when Sam is having her meeting with Taranto, I felt like this was a very clumsy, awkward scene. It just seemed like two bumbling amateurs trying to play detective - Sam keeps forgetting to use Taranto's code name, Taranto trying to sound like a toughie, but occasionally interjecting something like, 'Geez, you trying to get me killed?!'. Of course, they are amateurs at the sleuthing game, but I gave Sam at least a little more credit for investigative skills. And, of course Taranto DOES get killed, but I felt like they could/should have met someplace a little less obvious if the objective was to stay alive. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it seems so different in feel than the rest of this book, it really stood out to me.

I pretty much agree with most of the other comments, and my feelings for Sam have softened somewhat. Still maybe not my fave, but I understand her distancing herself from relationships. Everyone needs their own time and space to grieve, and she is at a place where maybe a nudge in the right direction will help her move on. We already see a little less hand-washing. And maybe Fletcher was just a teeny bit too intrusive, or probably shouldn't have said anything about checking on her background. You've got to figure he would, since they are working together, but he didn't have to mention it.

JT's narrative helps keep the story flowing and keeps it all tied together. I really like being able to see the story from the various characters' viewpoints, it keeps the focus more immediate. When something is happening to Susan, we see it from Susan's eyes, not a distant 3rd party.

The case? I have some ideas, but I think I'll just wait and see....

[dhaupt]

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elaine_hf wrote:

A little late to the game - sorry about that! I'll try to add in my own two cents' worth, where it makes sense. But first, Catherine I really am truly sorry for your loss, and maybe more sorry for the loss of your vision of your husband's family. Death brings out the worst in some people - we went through something very similar with the loss of my husband's father. Never thought I'd see that ugly side of people, hope I won't see it again. But maybe that's not realistic. I just wanted you to know that you're not alone, and I hope that time will help heal some of those wounds.

I have one comment about this section, and maybe no one else shares this feeling. In the bar, when Sam is having her meeting with Taranto, I felt like this was a very clumsy, awkward scene. It just seemed like two bumbling amateurs trying to play detective - Sam keeps forgetting to use Taranto's code name, Taranto trying to sound like a toughie, but occasionally interjecting something like, 'Geez, you trying to get me killed?!'. Of course, they are amateurs at the sleuthing game, but I gave Sam at least a little more credit for investigative skills. And, of course Taranto DOES get killed, but I felt like they could/should have met someplace a little less obvious if the objective was to stay alive. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, but it seems so different in feel than the rest of this book, it really stood out to me.

I pretty much agree with most of the other comments, and my feelings for Sam have softened somewhat. Still maybe not my fave, but I understand her distancing herself from relationships. Everyone needs their own time and space to grieve, and she is at a place where maybe a nudge in the right direction will help her move on. We already see a little less hand-washing. And maybe Fletcher was just a teeny bit too intrusive, or probably shouldn't have said anything about checking on her background. You've got to figure he would, since they are working together, but he didn't have to mention it.

JT's narrative helps keep the story flowing and keeps it all tied together. I really like being able to see the story from the various characters' viewpoints, it keeps the focus more immediate. When something is happening to Susan, we see it from Susan's eyes, not a distant 3rd party.

The case? I have some ideas, but I think I'll just wait and see....

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Thanks for your comments Elaine, I'm sorry I thought I posted a response earlier in the week. I think I need a vacation

[dhaupt]

Well it's the end of week two and we'll finally find out what happened to Eddie and his pals as JT gets us ready for book two.

I'll be checking in over the weekend and I'll post week three's questions early Monday am.

Also JT has been a very busy bee these past couple of weeks but things should be slowing down enough for her to catch her breath and catch up on the discussion.

[JT_Ellison]

Ah, the twists and turns. I try, Muse, I try. SO sorry the Nook ate your book. You might delete it from your device and download it again - they won't charge you - to get a clean version.

[JT_Ellison]

So true - the cops do have groupies. But Fletcher was only meant to be misinterpreted - Sam is so tetchy that ANYONE would rub her the wrong way.

[JT_Ellison]

Fingers crossed.

I have to tell you, I've never written a character from this ... shall we say defecit? ... before. I am an upbeat person in real life. I normally write characters who are upbeat. But I had a few setbacks in the past couple of years, with unremitting infertility, and those multiple losses really colored my writing. I needed to find a way to work through the pain I was feeling, and Sam's journey closely mimicked my own. I also liked the idea of changing a person completely from beginning to end of a book, something I don't do in the Taylor series.

I do hope Sam grows on you - but hey, we meet people all the time who dont' do it for us. Sometimes that's how book characters are too. But if you knew her whole story (as in back to the Taylor books) it might help. I don't know - I'm fascinated by everone's reactions to her.

[JT_Ellison]

*I am intrigued by Sam.  She doesn't let anyone get too close to her, and unfortunately, I think that includes readers. *

What a fabulous point! I'd love to hear your impression of whether she's opened herself up enough by the end. This is the first in a series, and taking ths thought and applying it forward, I do think she's a little more accessible. Interesting, intertesting, interesting. I've always seen my Taylor as the aloof one. Sam's not like that in the TJ books. Or is she, and I never noticed?????

[Mountain_Muse]

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JT_Ellison wrote:

Fingers crossed.

I have to tell you, I've never written a character from this ... shall we say defecit? ... before. I am an upbeat person in real life. I normally write characters who are upbeat. But I had a few setbacks in the past couple of years, with unremitting infertility, and those multiple losses really colored my writing. I needed to find a way to work through the pain I was feeling, and Sam's journey closely mimicked my own. I also liked the idea of changing a person completely from beginning to end of a book, something I don't do in the Taylor series.

I do hope Sam grows on you - but hey, we meet people all the time who dont' do it for us. Sometimes that's how book characters are too. But if you knew her whole story (as in back to the Taylor books) it might help. I don't know - I'm fascinated by everone's reactions to her.

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JT,

Sam grew on me from minute one!  My son lost his wife, very tragically, several years ago.  It happened while he was at work and he came home thie next morning to find her dead.  He was an EMT at the time and there she was,  there was nothing he could do.  He hit speed dial to my number (after 911) and kept just crying and screaming at me "she's gone momma, she's gone"  I couldn't get anything from him.  Finally he said "She's dead, I can't bring her back."  In his panic, he kept hanging up and rehitting the speed dial and talking to me till emergency response teams arrived (all co-workers).  As he was a State and 1500 miles away, it took us most of the day to get to him.  It took 2 years to get him back.  

I know and understand Sam's pain all too well.  Mike kept saying, "If only I had been at home."  Believe it or not, his healing process included going back into the same field and finishing his training to become a Paramedic.  Now, the compassion that he has for patients, victims, and their families makes him tops in his field.  

Do not feel like you were out in left fielf with Sam, you were right on.  It is a rough road.  I feel your pain and my heart is with you in your personal heartbreak.  Who better can tell a story and get a point across than someone who has walked in those shoes.  Great Job, JT.  You have sold me on Sam and on  your literary skills.  I look forward to more books about Sam and where she goes from here.  There is so much more to this story.

Muse

[dhaupt]

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JT_Ellison wrote:

Fingers crossed.

I have to tell you, I've never written a character from this ... shall we say defecit? ... before. I am an upbeat person in real life. I normally write characters who are upbeat. But I had a few setbacks in the past couple of years, with unremitting infertility, and those multiple losses really colored my writing. I needed to find a way to work through the pain I was feeling, and Sam's journey closely mimicked my own. I also liked the idea of changing a person completely from beginning to end of a book, something I don't do in the Taylor series.

I do hope Sam grows on you - but hey, we meet people all the time who dont' do it for us. Sometimes that's how book characters are too. But if you knew her whole story (as in back to the Taylor books) it might help. I don't know - I'm fascinated by everone's reactions to her.

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JT, I'm sorry for your troubles. It seems that you've used a very creative outlet to help you cope with the issues in your personal life and as a result you'e made this novel very personal to me.

I also lost someone very near and dear in a tragic accident. My dad was killed in a head on collision in 2001, I just knew that the driver was drunk/on druges what ever. It turns out that the "killer" was driving herself back from a chemo treatment. She knew she was supposed to have someone else drive her home, but her daughter was ill and she didn't want to "bother" anyone else. She was in remission, within a month of the accident she died too. I had no one to blame, I couldn't blame that poor woman she suffered enough, who was I supposed to blame. 

That was the hardest lesson I ever had to learn is that sometimes life just sucks and there is nothing we can do, but either give up ourselves or go on.

Muse honey, I'm so sorry that you and especially your son had to go through that terrible experience.

Thank you both for sharing

[Catherine111]

Gee, I feel really bad now.  I am so sorry for everyone's struggle here.  I hope no one thinks I am insensitive to J.T.'s heartache, when I criticized Sam.  I had no idea it was such a personal and cathartic experience over hurt and loss in your own life, J.T.   I am sorry.  I didn't know it was that personal.  I feel really awful.   

I'm sorry for your loss, Muse. 

I'm sorry for your loss, Deb. 

I've had my own struggles in the last five years, and maybe I'm reading the book from a jaded point of view.  I don't know now. 

[whiteginger]

After your stories, I realize how fortunate I truly am.  JT, thank you for sharing how Sam's character developed though your own sense of loss.  Muse and Deb, I'm sorry that your identification with Sam stems from painful, personal losses of your own.  

Although Sam didn't want me to get too close to her, I identified with her almost from the beginning--not because of a loss experience we shared, but because she was a woman who didn't want my sympathy, a woman who acknowledged her problems and was actively working to understand and control them.  I knew that when she finally learned to like herself again, (and there was much to like--intelligence, looks, etc.), she would let me like her, too.  In the meantime, she was, as I said, intriguing:  I did want to see what progress--on the case and in her own life--she would make. 

[dhaupt]

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Catherine111 wrote:

Gee, I feel really bad now.  I am so sorry for everyone's struggle here.  I hope no one thinks I am insensitive to J.T.'s heartache, when I criticized Sam.  I had no idea it was such a personal and cathartic experience over hurt and loss in your own life, J.T.   I am sorry.  I didn't know it was that personal.  I feel really awful.   

I'm sorry for your loss, Muse. 

I'm sorry for your loss, Deb. 

I've had my own struggles in the last five years, and maybe I'm reading the book from a jaded point of view.  I don't know now. 

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Catherine, there are no apologies necessary here, no one knew of our troubles and besides we're talking about a ficitonal character here no matter how or why she was formed the way she was.

In Fact JT just emailed me and told me how much she's enjoying the comments and has also commented about how smart the readers here are, that you all are teaching her something.

Thank you for your concern Catherine

It's also possible that you just don't like her, and there is nothing wrong with that in fact it's such a human trait, it's like the greatest person in the world everyone says so and you just want to put a dart in the middle of her forehead. And I perfectly understand it too.  Been there, done that.

Thanks for all your comments and your participation, but remember no apologies, we're all friends here.