About Before I Fall and Lauren Oliver [ Edited ]

[thewanderingjew]

aw shucks, are you calling me tenderheartedness....? if you are, thank you.

i agree, you can't really predict whether or not someone will take their life. the girl voted most likely to succeed in my hs class, committed suicide. it is a hard thing to understand but being mean is even harder. why are their "mean" girls or rather what makes them mean? did you even find a common thread? was it drugs, emotional distress, genetics or all of the above?

perhaps our esp or second sense dulls in many cases because we are afraid of overreacting. i know there are times when i ask myself, should i say something or keep quiet? often i keep quiet when i see something which attracts my antennae, but most of the time, i figure if i err, i will err on the side of caution and jump right in to ask if everything is okay.

any thoughts on how these things can be better anticipated and prevented? any suggestions on how to deal with mean girls? in my grandchild's private school, they have many meetings about this kind of bullying and ostracism and yet, the parents of the mean girls seem to be the ones in the dark about their own daughters or they are in denial.

i wonder why some kids let this behavior roll off them while others are so sensitive it changes their life.

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Vermontcozy wrote:

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Tenderheartedness wrote:

I was shocked to read about this real life story which is too close to the book's theme, for comfort.

Many parents and young adults need to become more aware of the dangers of bullying. It is hard to believe that the parents are unaware of their children's behavior and if they are, they need to get a grip on them. Perhaps unsupervised cell phones and computers are not such great tools for teenagers if they are going to use them as weapons against those less powerful and more vulnerable. Perhaps we need to bring back civics education to our high schools. Perhaps we need to stop being so politically correct and start being more proactive by setting limits and boundaries for young adults with expectations of more mature behavior.

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Vtc wrote; Having  worked with and counseled teens at a private school,geared towards alcohol,drug abuse and a host of other problems,many times it was difficult on the outside to pinpoint who  would and some did take their own lives.Being secretive,not opening up is part of those very difficult years that face teens.Coping skills are not there .Whether its genetic,or other wise,its very difficult for them to cope in a world that has so much coming at them.Loving,aware parents cannot predict,when all of the above is happening,unless the signs are there..Vtc  Susan

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[thewanderingjew]

Did you know the family involved or any of the girls accused of bullying? i can't even imagine the pain a parent feels when a child commits suicide and i imagine the parents of the girls who instigated it must feel awful, as well, although their pain pales in comparison.

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DSaff wrote:

This very sad story took place not too far from where we live. All because she was dating a Senior. My hope is that this book will have a message for young people about treating everyone as they would wish to be treated.

[Lisa1971]

This books pretty good!! I cant wait to dive in!!

[Vermontcozy]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

aw shucks, are you calling me tenderheartedness....? if you are, thank you.

i agree, you can't really predict whether or not someone will take their life. the girl voted most likely to succeed in my hs class, committed suicide. it is a hard thing to understand but being mean is even harder. why are their "mean" girls or rather what makes them mean? did you even find a common thread? was it drugs, emotional distress, genetics or all of the above?

perhaps our esp or second sense dulls in many cases because we are afraid of overreacting. i know there are times when i ask myself, should i say something or keep quiet? often i keep quiet when i see something which attracts my antennae, but most of the time, i figure if i err, i will err on the side of caution and jump right in to ask if everything is okay.

any thoughts on how these things can be better anticipated and prevented? any suggestions on how to deal with mean girls? in my grandchild's private school, they have many meetings about this kind of bullying and ostracism and yet, the parents of the mean girls seem to be the ones in the dark about their own daughters or they are in denial.

i wonder why some kids let this behavior roll off them while others are so sensitive it changes their life.

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Vermontcozy wrote:

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Tenderheartedness wrote:

I was shocked to read about this real life story which is too close to the book's theme, for comfort.

Many parents and young adults need to become more aware of the dangers of bullying. It is hard to believe that the parents are unaware of their children's behavior and if they are, they need to get a grip on them. Perhaps unsupervised cell phones and computers are not such great tools for teenagers if they are going to use them as weapons against those less powerful and more vulnerable. Perhaps we need to bring back civics education to our high schools. Perhaps we need to stop being so politically correct and start being more proactive by setting limits and boundaries for young adults with expectations of more mature behavior.

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Vtc wrote; Having  worked with and counseled teens at a private school,geared towards alcohol,drug abuse and a host of other problems,many times it was difficult on the outside to pinpoint who  would and some did take their own lives.Being secretive,not opening up is part of those very difficult years that face teens.Coping skills are not there .Whether its genetic,or other wise,its very difficult for them to cope in a world that has so much coming at them.Loving,aware parents cannot predict,when all of the above is happening,unless the signs are there..Vtc  Susan

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 Vtcozy wrote..Well I must admit,that when I spell checked my post,it must've picked up and did not recognize" the wandering jew" as a formal saying,so not being wide awake,I must've clicked replace,putting that aside,you are as we know 'One of a Kind".,with a tender heart...Aw....Best  Susan

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I

[DSaff]

No, I didn't know the family but have friends who do. It is a tough situation that seems to take place way too often!

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thewanderingjew wrote:

Did you know the family involved or any of the girls accused of bullying? i can't even imagine the pain a parent feels when a child commits suicide and i imagine the parents of the girls who instigated it must feel awful, as well, although their pain pales in comparison.

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DSaff wrote:

This very sad story took place not too far from where we live. All because she was dating a Senior. My hope is that this book will have a message for young people about treating everyone as they would wish to be treated.

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[mwallslawson]

I don't think that being a "mean girl" has anything to do with those ideas mentioned... I think Lauren hit the nail on the head in Before I Fall.  Meanness has more to do with hiding your own weaknesses, and being a group of mean girls together gives you power; you can create a shell where no one knows your own secrets.  It's a defense mechanism, and mob mentality begins to take over.  

I try so much to watch diligently in my own classroom, but it's hard!  Even if they aren't doing it in my room, I know nothing about how they interact outside that class.  A few years ago, in fact, I was caught in the middle of some of that with my sophomores.  One brought up another who had rolled her eyes in class, and I said that it was par (I wasn't a particularly well-liked teacher, as I'm much harder than most at the school).  Because I started mid-year, I knew nothing of an apparent history between the two girls, and the one who had mentioned the other turned the story around as if I was purposely talking badly about the other.  I'm not sure what she said exactly, but it was just terrible!  Luckily, things were very quickly rectified, and it didn't take me long to learn that they were BOTH actually bullies, just with their own factions.  And now that I've taught longer, I see this pattern a lot, too.  It really bothers me.

One (oddly) good thing that has come out of reading this book.... when I finished reading it, I swore that if I ever saw a kid I was mean to in 3rd grade again, I'd apologize (and hope he had no idea what I was talking about, too, because I'm quite certain it's the meanest thing I've ever said).  The very next day he popped up on my Facebook!  It was too weird of a coincidence, so I bit the bullet and wrote him a note.  He was very gracious and funny ("If you're in AA, you've just completed your 8th step!)  It was a real relief to know that I hadn't scarred him or something.  I feel lighter now - I'd thought of something awful I said to him for over twenty years.  

[suzebomb54]

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mwallslawson wrote:

One (oddly) good thing that has come out of reading this book.... when I finished reading it, I swore that if I ever saw a kid I was mean to in 3rd grade again, I'd apologize (and hope he had no idea what I was talking about, too, because I'm quite certain it's the meanest thing I've ever said).  The very next day he popped up on my Facebook!  It was too weird of a coincidence, so I bit the bullet and wrote him a note.  He was very gracious and funny ("If you're in AA, you've just completed your 8th step!)  It was a real relief to know that I hadn't scarred him or something.  I feel lighter now - I'd thought of something awful I said to him for over twenty years.  

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What a brave, brave thing you did. I am not sure that I could do what you did. But think of what a better place this world would be if we all took the time and compassion to reconnect with someone we did wrong and apologize to them.

And you can be pretty certain that your person probably thought about what you just did and maybe passed that feeling along to someone in his past. What a way to 'pay it forward' so to speak.

And the lighter feeling you feel is you finally forgiving yourself.

[jb70]

I didn't realize it was a real life story.

[jb70]

Nevermind, I misread the post by twj.  I clicked on the link to the story that was being refered to.  Maybe I need more cafeine or something.  It is sad that this is such a real problem today.  I dread my kids getting old enough even for middle school because I hated it so much.

[jb70]

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mwallslawson wrote:

I don't think that being a "mean girl" has anything to do with those ideas mentioned... I think Lauren hit the nail on the head in Before I Fall.  Meanness has more to do with hiding your own weaknesses, and being a group of mean girls together gives you power; you can create a shell where no one knows your own secrets.  It's a defense mechanism, and mob mentality begins to take over.  

I try so much to watch diligently in my own classroom, but it's hard!  Even if they aren't doing it in my room, I know nothing about how they interact outside that class.  A few years ago, in fact, I was caught in the middle of some of that with my sophomores.  One brought up another who had rolled her eyes in class, and I said that it was par (I wasn't a particularly well-liked teacher, as I'm much harder than most at the school).  Because I started mid-year, I knew nothing of an apparent history between the two girls, and the one who had mentioned the other turned the story around as if I was purposely talking badly about the other.  I'm not sure what she said exactly, but it was just terrible!  Luckily, things were very quickly rectified, and it didn't take me long to learn that they were BOTH actually bullies, just with their own factions.  And now that I've taught longer, I see this pattern a lot, too.  It really bothers me.

One (oddly) good thing that has come out of reading this book.... when I finished reading it, I swore that if I ever saw a kid I was mean to in 3rd grade again, I'd apologize (and hope he had no idea what I was talking about, too, because I'm quite certain it's the meanest thing I've ever said).  The very next day he popped up on my Facebook!  It was too weird of a coincidence, so I bit the bullet and wrote him a note.  He was very gracious and funny ("If you're in AA, you've just completed your 8th step!)  It was a real relief to know that I hadn't scarred him or something.  I feel lighter now - I'd thought of something awful I said to him for over twenty years.  

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I  know there were studies that came out on both sides of the coin for bullying, some say that children or people bully because they are trying to hide their own insecurities and then more studies that came out that some people are just built that way, it is not some lingering sense of doubt in themselves, they are just wired to be dominate and have a high tendancy to bully.  It actually said that the key to ending the bullying cycle is to change the behavior or the victim, not the bully.  Change the reaction to the bullying and the cycle can be changed but you are unlikely to be able to change the bully because they have no motivation to be different.

[GadgetgirlKS]

I remember bullying a girl that used to be in our group of friends, but did something (of course don't know what now) and we were so mean to her. I am happy to say thanks to facebook we are all connected again. Yet, she was unable to come back to our high school reunion and some of the girls at the reunion said mean things about her (glad she wasn't there to hear it). I didn't join in....but it scares me that being mean doesn't go away when we grow up. We are such a judgmental society, and not all of us can take that unnecessary judgment.

I am glad this book touches on so many important subjects.

[pen21]

I liked how you related this to a real experience in your life. Good comment to bring to the group.

pen21

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GadgetgirlKS wrote:

I remember bullying a girl that used to be in our group of friends, but did something (of course don't know what now) and we were so mean to her. I am happy to say thanks to facebook we are all connected again. Yet, she was unable to come back to our high school reunion and some of the girls at the reunion said mean things about her (glad she wasn't there to hear it). I didn't join in....but it scares me that being mean doesn't go away when we grow up. We are such a judgmental society, and not all of us can take that unnecessary judgment.

I am glad this book touches on so many important subjects.

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[Vermontcozy]

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pen21 wrote:

I liked how you related this to a real experience in your life. Good comment to bring to the group.

pen21

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GadgetgirlKS wrote:

I remember bullying a girl that used to be in our group of friends, but did something (of course don't know what now) and we were so mean to her. I am happy to say thanks to facebook we are all connected again. Yet, she was unable to come back to our high school reunion and some of the girls at the reunion said mean things about her (glad she wasn't there to hear it). I didn't join in....but it scares me that being mean doesn't go away when we grow up. We are such a judgmental society, and not all of us can take that unnecessary judgment.

I am glad this book touches on so many important subjects.

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 vtcozy wrote  Thank you for sharing such a personal experience with us.It takes BIF for me to another level..Being concious of how fragile people are..After Chapter 5 ,I read on,putting it down for a bit,crying,and then was able to get out of my denial stage..It was then for me easier to accept...Please join us at 10am est in the Community here to say goodbye to Lauren..Check the Comm Rm for details..Thanks..Vtc  Susan

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