Friendship and Popularity

[Zia01]

I defintely agree we are wired different to an extent. I don't think Rob is a bad guy but he's a hormonal teenager. His thoughts don't go much past himself at this stage. It's about his friends, sports, sex, etc. Mind you I agree with Wrighty, not all guys are like this by any means but I think Rob cerainly falls into this category.

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Wrighty wrote:

This is a very interesting question and I've thought about this myself. When I was a kid my friends and I could never figure out boys and were always wondering why they hadn't called, etc. I am now the mom of three wonderful boys ages 21,19 and almost 17 and I see things from their perspective now. Girls can be so complicated and emotional (I sure was!) and most boys just don't think about that stuff. My boys are active in sports, have jobs and plenty of friends. They've all had girlfriends but have never responded well to the hoops they were sometimes expected to jump through. I get that now. Girls are more emotional and boys are more physical. I'm speaking in general of course but after seeing both sides (my own youth and my sons') there is such a difference! We really are wired differently.

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kpatton wrote:

As I read posts, I am glad to see that we have readers who appear to still be in high school.  I am so glad for your perspective as we read.  Sometimes as we have gotten older and look back we have years of a lens that we filter those experiences through.  If there are any males out there, I would love to know your take on Rob.  I'm not saying I like his character, but I am wondering if he is as heartless as most of the people posting think.  I only raised daughters, but through friends I get the sense that boys are a little more immature in the whole arena of relationships.  Any thoughts?

Kathy

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[Wrighty]

You make excellent points and I had some of the same thoughts. That would be a good thing to ask the author. Did she intentionally overdramatized? It may also just be the viewpoint of Sam and her friends. That was their perception of high school and it changes as the book goes on.

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gte510i wrote:

I think that the portrayal of social strata at thomas jefferson is a bit off-kilter.   Perhaps the author was being extreme to get her point across, but I think it makes for a weaker book.  First and formost, any school that functions as thomas jefferson does would have its administrators fired, tuite d'suite. Everything that they allow, just breeds marginalization and a lack of academic focus of people within the school.  'cupids' wearing leotards?  the short skirts that sam got away with?  No principal in their right mind would allow that.

Not a single popular person at Thomas Jefferson is protrayed as kind or having a soul, really.  Hardly realistic.  As with any group, you get a mixed bag.  cupid day?  thats a swell idea.  The administrators should know that its a tool of the powerfull to bludgeon the self-worth of the weak.  even allowing for a long standing tradition, this school just isn't right. 

Granted, as we read the story, we learn more and more that the meaness of the it-girls masks insecurities and it is often a means of fitting in.  While I recognized plenty of people from high school (or more likely middle school), the school just seemed phony.  Like some tv exec depiction of high school as raucus and debaucherous in order to drive ratings because its 'shocking'.

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[BrittanyE]

Those who are perceived as popular are the ones who present a front of confidence, even superiority. Throughout the story we can see the motivation for this comes from an underlying insecurity. The truth is what middle school or high school student doesn’t have some amount of insecurity? Even the best of us have at some point desired anything else than to have laughing eyes on us, desired someone else to be the center of the ridicule. Whether we actively turn on someone else, or stand by silently and watch, we still don’t want to turn that negative attention back on us. So it seems like all it takes to be popular is just to claim superiority over someone with a lot of confidence, and then no one questions or challenges it. If you aren’t in the “in” crowd, you don’t want to cross them; they can make your life miserable. So you do everything you can to please them and agree with them, thus solidifying their status.

As for Rob, let’s not bash the guy too much. He’s not an amazing sweet wonderful boyfriend, he’s just a high school boy. He’s only so deep, which is not much, and what he’s looking for in a relationship reflects that. There is obviously more depth to Sam. She may not show it to everyone in an effort to be popular, but we can tell she thinks and cares more than she might want to. They want different things out of their relationship. Sam describes her infatuation with him, how she was enamored with the idea of him. When he seemed out of her reach he was obviously something wonderfully special. Once with him she wants so much to believe that he’s still special. She seems to realize though that there is no actual superiority about him. He isn’t smarter or sweeter or more interesting than anyone else. She wants depth, someone who really cares about her, who will sort through and struggle through life with her, not just a fun buddy. Rob really just wants someone to have fun with.

[FortunaLuna]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson? 

You always have to act a certain way-be a certain type of person. You have to wear the right clothes, eat in the right place, have the right friends.  It's all about acceptance, as the number of roses on cupid day seem to indicate

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

I can't recognize myself in any of the descriptions, but the characters' personalities are so prevalent in every day life. I see them all the time at my high school.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

Sam's feelings for Rob were formed when she was young and immature. She continues to like her image of him when she was in the 6th grade. In truth Rob is conceited, selfish, and annoying! He's popular because he's the stereotypical jock.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

I don't think Sam does at the beginning, but she grows and by the end she definitely does!

[ALN]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson? It's wearing the right clothes, hanging with the right person, and it seems to be based on how many roses you get. Sam talked about how girls would scrounge for ones that were dropped just so it appeared they had more friends.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school? I don't see myself as being like any of Sam's friends or the other characters. I so see people I know being a lot like Sam's friends.

How would you describe each one of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other? I would describe each of them as being mean, and that Juliet's description suited them to begin with. I think that Lindsey can be bossy, and she doesn't like change. Elody is funny, but not as confrontational. I like that Ally knows how to cook. I think they care about each other, just not about other people's feelings. They don't think about how what they do or say can hurt someone else.

Is Rob as Wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular?How does Sam describe her feelings for him? Rob is so not as wonderful as Sam likes to believe. He just cares for himself, and wants one thing from her. It didn't seem like he really listened to Sam when she talked to him. Rob's popular because he's a jock and good looking. He dresses like everyone else, and does what everyone else does. Sam describes her feelings for Rob through things that happened earlier. Her descriptions of him make him seem perfect, but he's not like that at all.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about? In the beginning, she didn't. Later on she learns that she doesn't want to be remembered as what Juliet and others see her as. She wants to show people she wasn't just that; they're was more to her.

[Annette94]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

I think it's how mean you are, the grade you're in, the friends you have, how pretty you are and how many roses you get on Cupid day.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the toehr kids in her highschool?

I think I relate most Brianna, maybe. She's the outgoing one that doesn't get picked on.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

No, I hate Rob. Rob thinks he's all that, when in reality, he's a slime ball. He's popular because he's on the lacrosse team and because he's hot.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

I think she does see the difference, because when she dies, she mentioned that She doesn't want to be remembered, she wants to be missed. So, she sees that what she does and how she acts, makes people not care whether she's dead or alive. Unless they are Lindsay, Ally, Elody, and Kent. Rob is too into himself to care.

[bookrooted]

I agree Rob is just about your average high school boy in some sense. Sam had a middle school crush & did believe he was something special, and when she was with him she kept telling herself that maybe he will change and start to care, but as someone said she wanted depth and to be personally liked, not just fun.

I'm only in middle school, and yeah theres the insecure girls and the crazy hormonal boys, but i don't think that there's anybody like Sam and her friends, that mean and derogatory. In that sense, though some do make the wrong decisions, having sex at young ages, doing drugs, etc. I don't think Lauren exaggerated those qualities of teens now.

[kpatton]

Thank you all for your thoughts.  It just felt like the posts were being overly judgemental and negative about Rob.  Granted I have only read the first two chapters (have to get reading for next week), but he didn't seem so bad to me.

Kathy

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Zia01 wrote:

I defintely agree we are wired different to an extent. I don't think Rob is a bad guy but he's a hormonal teenager. His thoughts don't go much past himself at this stage. It's about his friends, sports, sex, etc. Mind you I agree with Wrighty, not all guys are like this by any means but I think Rob cerainly falls into this category.

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Wrighty wrote:

This is a very interesting question and I've thought about this myself. When I was a kid my friends and I could never figure out boys and were always wondering why they hadn't called, etc. I am now the mom of three wonderful boys ages 21,19 and almost 17 and I see things from their perspective now. Girls can be so complicated and emotional (I sure was!) and most boys just don't think about that stuff. My boys are active in sports, have jobs and plenty of friends. They've all had girlfriends but have never responded well to the hoops they were sometimes expected to jump through. I get that now. Girls are more emotional and boys are more physical. I'm speaking in general of course but after seeing both sides (my own youth and my sons') there is such a difference! We really are wired differently.

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kpatton wrote:

As I read posts, I am glad to see that we have readers who appear to still be in high school.  I am so glad for your perspective as we read.  Sometimes as we have gotten older and look back we have years of a lens that we filter those experiences through.  If there are any males out there, I would love to know your take on Rob.  I'm not saying I like his character, but I am wondering if he is as heartless as most of the people posting think.  I only raised daughters, but through friends I get the sense that boys are a little more immature in the whole arena of relationships.  Any thoughts?

Kathy

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[ambika22]

I dont think its exaggerated either. Its true that when i was younger things were different, but the whole society has evolved and kids these days do these kind of things earlier. I've seen it clearly with my young cousins.

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bookrooted wrote:

I agree Rob is just about your average high school boy in some sense. Sam had a middle school crush & did believe he was something special, and when she was with him she kept telling herself that maybe he will change and start to care, but as someone said she wanted depth and to be personally liked, not just fun.

I'm only in middle school, and yeah theres the insecure girls and the crazy hormonal boys, but i don't think that there's anybody like Sam and her friends, that mean and derogatory. In that sense, though some do make the wrong decisions, having sex at young ages, doing drugs, etc. I don't think Lauren exaggerated those qualities of teens now.

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[blue2280]

I totally agree with this. I think that the environment portrayed in this book is extreme to the point of fantasy. It hasn't been THAT long (11 yrs) since I have been in high school and I can't imagine things have changed that much. This girl skipped so many classes I have no idea how she is learning, accomplishing, doing anything. Once again it is just another portrayal of how teenagers seem to have no awareness of the future. I would like to think that this is not the case. And besides the lack of control/ supervision of the school, even the lack of supervision with the parents I think is also extreme, At least I hope. If parents are letting their kids stay out till all hours, going gods now here, and not caring, there are huge issues here. Although this may just be reinforcing the latest trend of how parents are actually afraid/unable to discipline or control their children for one ridiculous reason or another. I don't understand at what point parents lost the ability to parent and instead try to be "friends" with their kids. There is a reason for the parent/ child relationship, and that is to provide (of course) love, but also guidance and discipline. In the end, you can't just be friends with your kids when they are steering down incredibly reckless paths of behavior. Which all these girls are.

I will say though that there was something very similar to Cupid day at my high school when I was there, although a much more tamer and "realistic" version. It was not used as a sign of popularity, nor did people get dressed up to deliver the roses. Actually, I want to say the entire thing took place in 6th (last) period, so less distracting in the end than having it go all day.

[ChrisSnyder]

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blue2280 wrote:

I totally agree with this. I think that the environment portrayed in this book is extreme to the point of fantasy. It hasn't been THAT long (11 yrs) since I have been in high school and I can't imagine things have changed that much. This girl skipped so many classes I have no idea how she is learning, accomplishing, doing anything. Once again it is just another portrayal of how teenagers seem to have no awareness of the future. I would like to think that this is not the case. And besides the lack of control/ supervision of the school, even the lack of supervision with the parents I think is also extreme, At least I hope. If parents are letting their kids stay out till all hours, going gods now here, and not caring, there are huge issues here. Although this may just be reinforcing the latest trend of how parents are actually afraid/unable to discipline or control their children for one ridiculous reason or another. I don't understand at what point parents lost the ability to parent and instead try to be "friends" with their kids. There is a reason for the parent/ child relationship, and that is to provide (of course) love, but also guidance and discipline. In the end, you can't just be friends with your kids when they are steering down incredibly reckless paths of behavior. Which all these girls are.

I will say though that there was something very similar to Cupid day at my high school when I was there, although a much more tamer and "realistic" version. It was not used as a sign of popularity, nor did people get dressed up to deliver the roses. Actually, I want to say the entire thing took place in 6th (last) period, so less distracting in the end than having it go all day.

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Fantasy? Far from it. This behavior happens everyday and all the time. Certainly where I grew up (Briarcliff, NY), where if you didn't wear Stan Smith's and sport a CB jacket, you were a loser.

Just because this situation is foreign to you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[blue2280]

You missed my point. I am not talking about fantasy in terms that kids won't subjecate other kids to ridicule or look down/ snub them for "what they wear". Can you be any more shallow though for that? I have never understood it. My point is that there is a serious lack of adult supervision in this book that, especially in the school system, would never be tolerated. This whole book makes it seem like these students run the school. They can do what they want, wear what they want, show up when they want, leave when they want. I find this very unrealistic, but that is just my opinion.

[Bonnie_W]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

Everyone has a sense of sameness to them.  Being attractive, wearing special clothing, getting a lot of roses, etc.... All the normal things that make someone popular.     

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

 Not really, no.  Maybe times have changed or I wasn't part of a group that labeled everyone, but I've never gotten how books and movies just have labels like Eco-Geeks and Drama Queens for every group imaginable.  That's something that's always been a little unbelievable to me personally because I've never experienced that.

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

 I think Lindsay is definitely the ringleader, though you can tell that she's also a troubled girl.  She's mean, not very nice at all, but she's absolutely the top dog.  A lot about Ally seems to revolve around money and she seems to care too much about who people are outwardly.  Like Lindsay, she doesn't seem to be very nice.  Elody seems like a good friend and seems nicer than some of the other girls, though maybe a little too nice when it comes to the boys...

I think the girls do care for one another.  You can see it in how they treat each other and get along.  They seem to know secrets, quirks, etc...all the things that make up a friendship.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

 I don't think Sam likes Rob as much as she thinks she does---or feels she SHOULD.  She doesn't like how he kisses, she doesn't like some of his habits, etc.  She details a lot of things she doesn't like about him, but also mentions why everyone else likes him.  She thinks she's lucky that he chose *her* and doesn't focus so much on whether or not she has deep feelings for him.  She likes his shell and what he represents, not him as a person.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

 No, not really.  To her, they are one and the same.  If you are popular, you are loved.  If you aren't popular, people tease you and ignore you and avoid you.

[Beguile_Thy_So…]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

the same things at high schools everywhere: the right clothes, the cool friends, a new/ popular car, an attitude to do whatever it takes to stay at the top of the social hierarchy, and a lot of follower/sheep mentality.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

Not really. Not yet anyway, maybe someone else later in the book.

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

Lindsay is a total mean girl queen bee bitch, Ally is a beta follower, Elody is a pushover.

Rob is a very selfish jerk. Kent seems sweet & intelligent.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

No way, but then I think deep down she knows this and is just in denial so she can fit in. His jock status, and arrogance, which is mistaken for confidence, make him popular. Sam describes her feelings for him as less than she thought they would be from 6th grade.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

 Nope, to her being popular puts your existance on the map. To her being popular

= important to everyone.

[Beguile_Thy_So…]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

the same things at high schools everywhere: the right clothes, the cool friends, a new/ popular car, an attitude to do whatever it takes to stay at the top of the social hierarchy, and a lot of follower/sheep mentality.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

Not really. Not yet anyway, maybe someone else later in the book.

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

Lindsay is a total mean girl queen bee bitch, Ally is a beta follower, Elody is a pushover.

Rob is a very selfish jerk. Kent seems sweet & intelligent.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

No way, but then I think deep down she knows this and is just in denial so she can fit in. His jock status, and arrogance, which is mistaken for confidence, make him popular. Sam describes her feelings for him as less than she thought they would be from 6th grade.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

 Nope, to her being popular puts your existance on the map. To her being popular

= important to everyone.

[CharlieG31]

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

 No, not really.  To her, they are one and the same.  If you are popular, you are loved.  If you aren't popular, people tease you and ignore you and avoid you.

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My personal opinion is that Sam is conscious in a way that she is not being cared of by the way she acts and reacts to her friends comments, but she hides this need of care by choosing popularity over having real friends. She is conscious her friends do not care about her but she would rather have a social life than to risk what she has and go back to where she once used to be on the social scale.

[LastWord]

I agree with those who said that Rob isn't evil, just a typical teenage boy: a bit self-centered and ruled by his hormones. 

A lot of YA readers complain that many books have these dreamy, completely unrealistic teen guy characters. They are all like something out of a personals ad: good-looking, sensitive, love to take walks in the rain and drink cocoa in front of the fire, kind to animals and the elderly...  LOL -- where were the guys like that at my h.s.?

I like the fact that the author was realistic in her portrayal of Rob. One thing I look forward to discussing is the way Sam treats Rob toward the end of the book. That really disappointed me, because I thought there was an opportunity for her to speak her mind and be assertive.

[GreenFairyLV]

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

I don't even think Sam thinks he's wonderful to be honest with you.  She's only with him because he's popular and plays sports.  I think she had a crush on him, then got him and now is kind of stuck with him because he is one of "them."

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

A little. She did say how she liked how Rob would put his arm around her and pull her towards him when he thought someone might bump into her in a crowd. Thats being cared for I think.

[Galleysmith]

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

Rob is more of an infatuation than someone Sam loves.  She even talks about how he'd been her crush in earlier years and he didn't give her the time of day.  Heck he even treated her poorly before she became part of the in-crowd.  I definitely get the sense that if you're part of the popular crowd it is expected that you date another member of that crowd and Rob was as good as any.  He was a known entity and achieving that relationship status with him was more satisfying in that she met the goal of getting him that really being happy with having him.

[Megtall]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

Good looks, sports, having parents with money and, apparently, flowers.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

I guess I see myself as one of the people Sam and her friends pass in the hallway.  I'd be someone on the periphery, not really drawing anyone's notice.  I was never popular, and never wanted to be.  I just wanted to get out of high school alive.

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

I think all of her friends, underneath the need for being mean, could be a decent person.  I'm still in the first half of the book, so I don't know if anything changes with the girls, but they show each other they care by teasing.  Mocking each other creates a sense of shared comeraderie between them.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

It seems to me that Rob is simply a typical guy.  He likes parties and sex.  Nothing new or groundbreaking there.  He doesn't seem especially bright or compassionate.  I think it is his looks that make him popular because it is mentioned several times that girls are always staring at him.  As for Sam's feelings, it seems like she is trying to talk herself into loving him.  She always lists things that seem appealing to her about him, but she doesn't ever just say that she loves him because he's a great guy.  She says she "thinks" she loves him.  Plus, her reluctance to consumate their relationship may show that she isn't really that interested in him anymore.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

I think that she doesn't see a difference in the beginning.  She thinks that because she is popular that everyone cares about her and everything that happens to her.  But, as the book progresses, she seems to realize that the popularity can be fun, but she would rather her boyfriend and friends genuinely care about her. 

[Sheltiemama]

The usual things lead to popularity -- wealth, material possessions and physical beauty.

I was smart and shy, so I was the polar opposite of Sam and her friends. The letter from this book's editor stated that she hated Sam at the beginning of the book, and I agree.

Sam's friends are immature, but they really do care for each other. I've seen such popular girls eat their young, though.

Rob is just a typical, clueless high school jock. Not a monster, but not the best boyfriend material.

I think Sam is just starting to see the difference in being popular and being cared about.