Friendship and Popularity

[mgarrison]

I am beginning to hate Rob...  He sounds like one of those guys that acts sweet just to get what he wants which is SEX and that is all he cares about.  He doesn't seem to really care about Sam at all, and probably would have thrown her to the curb after he got what he wanted.  I have known so many guys like that and it never seems to really change!

[mgarrison]

I agree that it seems that each and every one of Sam's friends has a skeleton in her closet that she tries to hide by being hateful and cruel to everyone around them.  I see it all the time, the girls are so lost that they feel they need to hurt others in order to make themselves look better.  It's sad that a person's self-esteem can be that low that they would do the things they do to people like Juliet...  I am hoping that Sam's ordeal will turn everyone's life around and that the book will end on a happier note than how it began... 

[sarah_in_ca]

At Thomas Jefferson, people are popular when they can break the rules and not get in trouble, skip class anytime, not do the homework, cheat on tests, and flaunt themselves.  Popular girls are mean to everyone else, insulting them, laughing at them, spreading stories about them, and making others cower.  When you're popular at Jefferson you can do and say what you want BECAUSE you're popular.

Yes, I see myself in Sam because I tried for years to be a member of what I thought was THE group.  It was so important to me at the time, but very frustrating, because others just walked through the open door.

[Caitlynxx]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

 Who they're friends with. Which in a sense is  how High school is but not really. High schools more about what you do.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

 Not really, I get along with every one in my school. I'm a "floater" I can go from group to group without issue. So I guess in a sense I'm popular.

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

Sam's friends are all pretty cut and dry. Like duplicates. Sam cares and she shows that frequently. I'm not sure All Lindsey and Elody care much more about Sam than they care about her virginity.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

 No Rob's kind of a Jerk. He seems to be all about himself and his image,which is what makes him popular. Sam's feelings seem very forced like because he's hot  she wants him SORTA. Because he makes her look good.

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

I dont really think so. In a sense she might but she doesnt display it very much. She thinks Linds Ally and Elody care but deep down I dont see much of theyre care for her.

[SweetLadyJess]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

I think that gossip can either create you destroy you. Gossip that makes you seem higher above the others will make you popular. If there is gossip that makes you seem like a freak, or make you stand out in a wrong way then you are destined for a position in the lowest of rankings in Thomas Jefferson.

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

I feel a slight twinge towards being more like Kent. I wear what I like, I'm interested in the things I like, with no care or approval from those around me. I was ridiculed a lot for it when I was in high school, but that didn't stop me from finding people that had the same interests as me. I wasn't talked that much about. I wasn't really a topic to gossip about, but it still hurt to be me in high school.

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

In the end, no he is not as grand as anyone in the school thinks he is. Sam finally sees through him. She doesn't even see a good love future for him. He might be that hopeless. The fact that she is handsome, on the lacrosse team and going out with Sam, one of the popular girls, is what makes him to popular. As the book develops, Sam starts questioning her judgment of him. Her heart might have fluttered when she thought about him when they weren't going out yet, but she kept questioning what she ever saw in him as the day kept repeating.

[thewanderingjew]

I think it is interesting that each generation has experienced "mean" girls in different ways. In my generation, it wasn't drugs or sex, it was twirlers or cheerleaders who were the popular girls who had the power to make you feel really small because of rejection. There were rumors, but mostly, being left out and not being chosen for teams was the way one felt ostracism. It didn't feel earth shattering. There was always another group to fit into if you tried hard enough. We found our own "community" in which we felt safe.

In my daughter's generation, tales of drugs, reckless driving, sex or cutting class became more of a problem and there were lots of meetings of concerned parents, most of whom thought their own kids were angels. "Mean" kids thought nothing of lying about other kids to get them into trouble because of personal vendettas about trivial things. I remember the rumors, some of which were started by someone's best friend, insinuating that their "best" friend had engaged in bad behavior because they didn't want to feel they misbehaved alone. Sometimes they accused the "good" girl of engaging in sex when she hadn't, because not to have had sex with the rest of them meant she was lording it over them, Sometimes they wanted to get back at the "smart" kid, the "goody two shoes" just because the innocent victim hadn't participated in the "mean" behavior. The "mean" kids didn't want them to feel smug because they stayed out of it.  "With friends like that, they didn't need enemies".

In my grandchild's generation, "mean" girls seem to start in grade school, at a much younger age...4th and 5th grade, actually. These girls are the "superrich" "superentitled" who feel a bit self righteous about passing judgment and making fun of the clothing and hairstyles of those kids they want to ridicule, those kids who can't afford their labels or their riding lessons. They whisper about them, in plain sight, hoping their cruelty will be noticed. They send fake text messages, even to the parents of the kids they dislike and they have no fear. Parent-guidance counselor meetings don't seem to affect the behavior overall.

I shudder to think about the ramifications of such behavior in the long term if it keeps starts earlier and earlier. Already we hear of bizarre shootings by young children and beatings without remorse or intervention. 

Does anyone have any theories as to why this behavior persists and seems to be involving younger and younger children?

[Zeal]

I am surprised by the amount of responses that are quick to state that the girls really care about each other but are just as quick to pronounce Rob as a jerk.  Sam's friends think they care about each other, but I think that if one member of the group "strayed" say was to become sympathetic to Juliet or like Kent, etc.  the others would be very quick to "drop" the offensive member without another thought.  They would not want to tarnish their own popularity.  Rob's popularity is the same as Sam's except for the gender difference.

[blue2280]

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Zeal wrote:

I am surprised by the amount of responses that are quick to state that the girls really care about each other but are just as quick to pronounce Rob as a jerk.  Sam's friends think they care about each other, but I think that if one member of the group "strayed" say was to become sympathetic to Juliet or like Kent, etc.  the others would be very quick to "drop" the offensive member without another thought.  They would not want to tarnish their own popularity.  Rob's popularity is the same as Sam's except for the gender difference.

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Yes, I agree with this...I even wrote somnething similar in another post stating about Sam :

That deep down, she really isn't the "popular" girl she thinks she is. That she realizes that there are more important things than being popular and that it really is special to find people who genuinely care about you. I have not yet decided, if taken out of the high school environment, if Sam, Lindsey, Ally and Elody would still be friends, but I do think that if taken out of this environment, Sam and Kent would be friends, if not more.

To me it is something similar to be in a sorority of sorts. You have to prove yourself worthy in order to "belong". I don't at all think that these girls are "true" friends and I would go out on a limb that once these girls go to college, or their seperate ways after high school, they will each move on.

[gte510i]

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Zeal wrote:

I am surprised by the amount of responses that are quick to state that the girls really care about each other but are just as quick to pronounce Rob as a jerk.  Sam's friends think they care about each other, but I think that if one member of the group "strayed" say was to become sympathetic to Juliet or like Kent, etc.  the others would be very quick to "drop" the offensive member without another thought.  They would not want to tarnish their own popularity.  Rob's popularity is the same as Sam's except for the gender difference.

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 Isn't that exactly what happened?

On day three, Sam began to critisize Lindsey.  Which is one of the taboos on her clique.  The result, Sam was kicked out of the car, and left without lunch companions.

[Zeal]

I thought this board dealt with Chapters 1 and 2 only.???

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gte510i wrote:

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Zeal wrote:

I am surprised by the amount of responses that are quick to state that the girls really care about each other but are just as quick to pronounce Rob as a jerk.  Sam's friends think they care about each other, but I think that if one member of the group "strayed" say was to become sympathetic to Juliet or like Kent, etc.  the others would be very quick to "drop" the offensive member without another thought.  They would not want to tarnish their own popularity.  Rob's popularity is the same as Sam's except for the gender difference.

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 Isn't that exactly what happened?

On day three, Sam began to critisize Lindsey.  Which is one of the taboos on her clique.  The result, Sam was kicked out of the car, and left without lunch companions.

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[Bluediamond]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?

I think popularity is based on what group of individuals you hang out with and also it seems that it's something that transfers from one year to another. There also is a certain level of popularity that is given just because a person has a senior status. 

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?

The school I attended was pretty small so it's easy to classify people into different unique personalities and characteristics. I think all of the types of people that Sam describe did exist in my school, and I can say that I did see myself in a few of the descriptions that Sam identified, but I don't think I was too extreme in any 'character' I portrayed. As a cheerleader and sports team member I was popular, but it wasn't important for me to BE popular so I never emphasized it. 

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?

I think each of Sam's friends are trying to find out what makes them stand out among the rest of the group. They want something unique and special about themselves to show they add value to the group and have a justified reason for being a part of it. 

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?

I don't think Rob is as wonderful as Sam thinks he is. I believe Sam doesn't want to see the truth about Rob as it's more important for her to have a boyfriend and have someone that can show her attention and push her further into popularity. 

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?

As far as I have read, I don't think Sam sees a difference between being popular and being cared for. To me it appears that Sam thinks of them as being one in the same and being popular means you are cared for by those around you and who want to be like you. 

[asmith519]

it seems like the popular kids are the ones w/$, the pretty ones and also the ones who are able to hide their secrets from the rest of the world.  they have something in their past that they don't want anyone to know about them, like they wet the bed, or they used to be a dork...

i guess i can see that i am not always as thoughtful of other peoples' feelings and their best qualities as i should be. 

lindsay is the ring leader and the one everyone want to be.  she has a cool car, she's beautiful and pretends to not care about anything, other than herself.  she also has the most to hide and makes enemies of those who know the real lindsay.

elody is the rebel.  she is the most experienced, sexually, and makes sure everyone knows it.  she is no angel, but somewhere she has some decent qualities about her. 

ally is kind of the most normal one.  she seems to be the one who actually has a bit of a conscience.  she has the biggest house and the least present parents.  they party at her house and cook a lot.  she seems the most domestic and caring of the group. 

they do show that they care for each other, but in rather superficial ways.  as in helping each other cut class, smoking, drinking and covering up secrets.

as the story progresses, sam begins to open her eyes to what rob really is.  she sees that he's not all that great, not all that smart, and really doesn't care all that much for her.  he doesn't really seem to know the real sam and what she wants and needs from another human being.  he is athletic and i guess that's what makes him popular.  he shows up at all the right parties and gets drunk and that makes him cool?

the difference between being popular and being cared about is slowly reavealed throughout the story.  sam begins to realize that her popluar friends don't really care about her or other people (that aren't cool, that is).  she begins to see the true value in being cared about, by people that aren't necessarily cool.  she begins to care about other people and look out for their needs above her own.  she becomes less selfish and tries to right the wrongs she has committed.

[CharlieG31]

"the difference between being popular and being cared about is slowly reavealed throughout the story.  sam begins to realize that her popluar friends don't really care about her or other people (that aren't cool, that is).  she begins to see the true value in being cared about, by people that aren't necessarily cool.  she begins to care about other people and look out for their needs above her own.  she becomes less selfish and tries to right the wrongs she has committed."

 I believe that through chapters 1-3 Sam tries to do good not because she tries to change but because she is trying to save herself from dead, I believe that chapter 4 is when the transformation truly begins but before that she tries to change the situations for personal gain not because she actually cares about people.

[gmfuhlman]

I have the same opinion that you do about Sam, she is coming to realize that her so called friends don't care anything about her. She wanted to change because she realize that being popular isn't what she wanted to do or be apart of any more. But I feel that everything in life there is a reason why things happen the way that they do. I feel that in chapter 4 also is when she tries to make changes in her situation is when she started to care about people.

It is great to be reading with people who have the same feeling and thoughts that you do about the characters in this story.

[kpatton]

I think this might be a good question to pose to the author.  If the parents and the teachers were strict and watching everything in this story, the author wouldn't have had as much ability to have Sam experience situations that she learns from.  I do know that when my oldest daughter was a senior (she is a beautiful, responsible adult now) she was signing my signature to get her out of school, staying at friends (whose parents I knew and trusted) and then all were going to parties.  Even with concientious parents and involved parents, kids are able to find ways around the rules.   Kathy

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blue2280 wrote:

You missed my point. I am not talking about fantasy in terms that kids won't subjecate other kids to ridicule or look down/ snub them for "what they wear". Can you be any more shallow though for that? I have never understood it. My point is that there is a serious lack of adult supervision in this book that, especially in the school system, would never be tolerated. This whole book makes it seem like these students run the school. They can do what they want, wear what they want, show up when they want, leave when they want. I find this very unrealistic, but that is just my opinion.

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[kpatton]

LastWord,  I am glad that you are still seeing Rob as a fairly average teenage boy.  I was beginning to think I was the only one.  Please however be careful about talking about the end of the book.  I'm only through chapter 4.  Kathy

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LastWord wrote:

I agree with those who said that Rob isn't evil, just a typical teenage boy: a bit self-centered and ruled by his hormones. 

A lot of YA readers complain that many books have these dreamy, completely unrealistic teen guy characters. They are all like something out of a personals ad: good-looking, sensitive, love to take walks in the rain and drink cocoa in front of the fire, kind to animals and the elderly...  LOL -- where were the guys like that at my h.s.?

I like the fact that the author was realistic in her portrayal of Rob. One thing I look forward to discussing is the way Sam treats Rob toward the end of the book. That really disappointed me, because I thought there was an opportunity for her to speak her mind and be assertive.

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[kpatton]

Very well said.  Thank you for posting your comments.  Kathy

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I think it is interesting that each generation has experienced "mean" girls in different ways. In my generation, it wasn't drugs or sex, it was twirlers or cheerleaders who were the popular girls who had the power to make you feel really small because of rejection. There were rumors, but mostly, being left out and not being chosen for teams was the way one felt ostracism. It didn't feel earth shattering. There was always another group to fit into if you tried hard enough. We found our own "community" in which we felt safe.

In my daughter's generation, tales of drugs, reckless driving, sex or cutting class became more of a problem and there were lots of meetings of concerned parents, most of whom thought their own kids were angels. "Mean" kids thought nothing of lying about other kids to get them into trouble because of personal vendettas about trivial things. I remember the rumors, some of which were started by someone's best friend, insinuating that their "best" friend had engaged in bad behavior because they didn't want to feel they misbehaved alone. Sometimes they accused the "good" girl of engaging in sex when she hadn't, because not to have had sex with the rest of them meant she was lording it over them, Sometimes they wanted to get back at the "smart" kid, the "goody two shoes" just because the innocent victim hadn't participated in the "mean" behavior. The "mean" kids didn't want them to feel smug because they stayed out of it.  "With friends like that, they didn't need enemies".

In my grandchild's generation, "mean" girls seem to start in grade school, at a much younger age...4th and 5th grade, actually. These girls are the "superrich" "superentitled" who feel a bit self righteous about passing judgment and making fun of the clothing and hairstyles of those kids they want to ridicule, those kids who can't afford their labels or their riding lessons. They whisper about them, in plain sight, hoping their cruelty will be noticed. They send fake text messages, even to the parents of the kids they dislike and they have no fear. Parent-guidance counselor meetings don't seem to affect the behavior overall.

I shudder to think about the ramifications of such behavior in the long term if it keeps starts earlier and earlier. Already we hear of bizarre shootings by young children and beatings without remorse or intervention. 

Does anyone have any theories as to why this behavior persists and seems to be involving younger and younger children?

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[laneyowenmom]

What makes people popular at Thomas Jefferson?  It seems that popularity is based on intimidation and reputation more so than anything else.  Lindsey seems to be an intimidator who has built her popularity and her friends' popularity by being cruel and spreading rumors about people that she does not like. 

Do you recognize yourself in any of Sam's descriptions of her friends or of the other kids in her high school?  I was solidly middle of the road in popularity when I was in high school.  I never was really popular, but I was never picked on either.  I pretty much floated among all the groups.  I guess I would see my friends and I like Tara and Courtney although I don't think we were as impressed by the popular crowd as they seemed to be. 

How would you describe each of Sam's friends? Do they show that they care for each other?  Lindsey was just a viper.  Elody seemed to be searching for affection and approval, and not always in the best way.  Ally seemed to be the most grounded, but she was also not going to go against the grain.  I think that they do care for one another, but I think their fear of Lindsey and losing popularity outweighs their caring for one another. 

Is Rob as wonderful as Sam thinks he is? What makes him popular? How does Sam describe her feelings for him?  Rob was the hot jock.  I don't think he deserved all the praise and admiration she gave him and I think she learned that early on.  It was a crush, not love.  I think we all have to have one of those relationships in our lifetime... the one where we think we have found Mr./Ms. Right and then once we get past the superficial attraction we realize that we don't have that much in common or that we figure out that person does not live up to what we imagined them to be. 

Does Sam see any difference between being popular and being cared about?  At first, I don't think she does.  I think she learns through the process that her friends are not as loyal to her as she though.  She realizes that the friendships she has are not that true and are built on her loyalty to Lindsey.  Her connections with her friends are fragile...more fragile than she ever thought.

[stopper19]

Rob is defiantly not as wonderful as Sam thinks he is. You can tell almost from right in the beginning of the book that Rob was just using Sam. He didn't really like her or want to get to know her and he didn't have feelings for her at all. What makes Rob so popular is that he is athletic and hot. Those are the two things that put him at the top of the social ladder in school. In the beginning of the book Sam describes her feelings for him in a way of which she was fond of him but we later on found out that the only reason that she liked Rob was because he made her more popular. In the middle of the book we learned that she really didn't like him at all. She was distracted by his popularity and athleticism that she didn't even take the time to realize that he is a jerk.

[mgmama33]

High school is the same now as it was forever ago.  Never changes.  I dated the "Rob"s and all the other bad boys that weren't as wonderful as they seemed.  So many times I just wished I could've shaken Sam and told her how fake her friends were and to start realizing who how true friends were and that the good guys really are the quiet friends in the background.