Re:Chungamunga Girls

[Peppermill]

Charming, sweet, and fairytale wonderous as the wedding was, I have said elsewhere that I am not certain how I would have felt if I had had an 11-12 year old daughter who was a Chungamunga girl and she came home and told me a story like the one about the wedding.  I think I would have had some reservations about the conduct of the adults in which I had placed her care, although I probably would not have made a big deal about it, especially since the event would have been already over. 

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Sunltcloud wrote:

Sunltcloud wrote:

I am intrigued by the magic thinking that is used to help the Chungamunga girls deal with their illnesses. I love the way they are shown the beauty of nature and how they are educated in rituals of varying cultures.

But one thing puzzles me. On page 89 Wally says, talking about girls in general: "We sexuality them, vamp them up, then scorn them if they actually misbehave sexually. You know all that line of thinking, I'm sure." And then about the Chungamunga girls: "Sometimes our motto is that we reclaim their girlhood. They put on plays and skits, they make up songs and invent rituals to add to the existing rituals. They skip rope and do hand-clapping games. They tell stories, but not about boys and kissing and all that. They make their own culture, where the girls are strong and heroic."

All this means to me that sexuality is downplayed in favor of "girlhood." Then why a wedding? Aren't these girls old enough to understand what a wedding means? I am not asking this out of prudishness; I only wonder why a ritual that binds male and female together (an adult man and adult woman in this case) is chosen as highlight when all other aspects of Chungamunga society seem to be non-sexual. Men aren't supposed to spend the night at the camp, but one man is allowed to take one of their favorite teachers away in the dark..

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Vtc  Wrote  .Good Point..But to me its irrelevant .Many different ages,one never knows what "Girls" at that age are thinking,or what they know about sex .It  was "A Wedding" A Ritual,that is bonding Mary and Cobb for eternity. Into the woods together,does not constitute sex,just disappearing into the woods,like a Fairytale.Rules are made to be broken....Especially in this setting and circumstances...Vtc

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Yes, that's how I decided to look at it too..... a ritual..... a fairy tale. I guess I am often too analytical when it comes to writing; it comes from having a longtime teacher who points out details that are set up against the whole picture and asks how they fit into it.

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[thewanderingjew]

Here is my two cents on this:

Regarding the wedding, what girl doesn't dream that her prince will come? The beauty of the Chumgamunga experience was that it let the girls be who they were. It let them dream, play and work together. They were trusted, given independence and allowed to bond with each other, unconditionally.
I think everything in the lives of these girls is symbolic. The Chungamunga girl experience seems to intertwine reality with fantasy and the wedding was a pure fantasy. Maybe it wasn't so much about the fact that they might not ever get married but more about the fact that they might not see Mary married or that Mary, might not live to see her own marriage.
The girls were, of necessity, very mature and thoughtful. Their ideas about life were finite whereas most people don't think about their own mortality until they get a wake-up call. For these girls, the end game was part of their life. They had to squeeze a lot of living into a short time...just in case...so they grew up faster, dealt with things sooner, and perhaps lived more vicariously.
I have a feeling that their parents wouldn't have objected to Mary going off with her boyfriend. She went to a different island. It wasn't in their face, so to speak. Yes it left a lot for them to imagine, but isn't that really all many of these girls would ever have, something to imagine?
I think the parents were probably more worried about their safety on this trip but knew they had to allow the girls to have this experience of fellowship, education, independence and adventure that  it provided. They knew that one day, all the protection they could provide would be useless. I think, perhaps they looked at all of life's experiences with a different eye, perhaps a more open eye.
Mary was a visitor who came to teach them and add to their experience. They all treated each other with respect. I think that, especially today, (and in the recent past), girls are so much more aware of what is going on outside of their own living rooms that they would have been more surprised if Mary didn't go off with him. She was, after all, a grown-up, 30 years old. She was a Chungamunga girl who was possibly living on borrowed time too. They all needed to reach for the brass ring and live life to the fullest.
Maybe, in hindsight, that is good advice for all of us.

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Peppermill wrote:

Charming, sweet, and fairytale wonderous as the wedding was, I have said elsewhere that I am not certain how I would have felt if I had had an 11-12 year old daughter who was a Chungamunga girl and she came home and told me a story like the one about the wedding.  I think I would have had some reservations about the conduct of the adults in which I had placed her care, although I probably would not have made a big deal about it, especially since the event would have been already over. 

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Sunltcloud wrote:

Sunltcloud wrote:

I am intrigued by the magic thinking that is used to help the Chungamunga girls deal with their illnesses. I love the way they are shown the beauty of nature and how they are educated in rituals of varying cultures.

But one thing puzzles me. On page 89 Wally says, talking about girls in general: "We sexuality them, vamp them up, then scorn them if they actually misbehave sexually. You know all that line of thinking, I'm sure." And then about the Chungamunga girls: "Sometimes our motto is that we reclaim their girlhood. They put on plays and skits, they make up songs and invent rituals to add to the existing rituals. They skip rope and do hand-clapping games. They tell stories, but not about boys and kissing and all that. They make their own culture, where the girls are strong and heroic."

All this means to me that sexuality is downplayed in favor of "girlhood." Then why a wedding? Aren't these girls old enough to understand what a wedding means? I am not asking this out of prudishness; I only wonder why a ritual that binds male and female together (an adult man and adult woman in this case) is chosen as highlight when all other aspects of Chungamunga society seem to be non-sexual. Men aren't supposed to spend the night at the camp, but one man is allowed to take one of their favorite teachers away in the dark..

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Vtc  Wrote  .Good Point..But to me its irrelevant .Many different ages,one never knows what "Girls" at that age are thinking,or what they know about sex .It  was "A Wedding" A Ritual,that is bonding Mary and Cobb for eternity. Into the woods together,does not constitute sex,just disappearing into the woods,like a Fairytale.Rules are made to be broken....Especially in this setting and circumstances...Vtc

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Yes, that's how I decided to look at it too..... a ritual..... a fairy tale. I guess I am often too analytical when it comes to writing; it comes from having a longtime teacher who points out details that are set up against the whole picture and asks how they fit into it.

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[EiLvReedn]

I don't know if I'd call it a romance to be a Chungamunga girl they all have terrible fates awaiting them yet at the same time they have a place to belong and a place that is special just for them.

The invitation sounded like a great surprise and what a wonderful way to make something seem so magical and precious for just the one invited. If Mary had a younger or possibly older Sister as I did I'd say they would be jealous even though you have to be sick to be invited. 

Re: Myrtle the book explains how her Mother the minister talks about pure souls and good souls. She has a great background and support to help cope and seemingly accept her condition. With the girls so happy together and enjoying the camping experience it's easy to see why Cobb could forget the fact that the girls are sick and most likely won't have a career or occupation. While Mary does have a career she is still like Myrtle in knowing her life will end all to soon and they are making the most of what time they have.

As I said it is hard to realize that the girls are sick from how they act. They sound like ordinary adolescent girls and yet they seem wiser and older too possibly because they are ill and have been counseled by people like Mary and Wally.

I kept thinking that Wally would unveil some illness as well but then I also thought there has to be one strong person who will survive longer than the rest to carry on the traditions and the club itself. Wally is wise and yet fun. I think we all could use someone like her in our lives.

[troubleactingn…]

I think that the Chungamunga girls create some of the most beautiful and powerful moments in the book. I suppose that in some way shows my personal attachment to the rituals and traditions of my camp and my all-girls boarding school. I think that it is a significant and important challenge to help girls be girls in adolescence, especially in a world where "sexting" is a word. It seems that the Chungamunga program does a beautiful job of that with a group of girls living in a situation that obviously makes them old before their time.

I had no problem at all with the wedding in the woods, and I think that the situation there was fitting for the circumstances and the goals of the program. I don't know about everyone else here, but I certainly had fantasies of meeting and marrying my prince long before I thought about the sexual implications of marriage. As somehow who is currently planning a wedding, I think and hope that the symbolism of even our fairly traditional event will not center on our sexuality. Of course that is important and implied, but it is not the focus. I don't think even the most jaded look at a bride in a fairy tale wedding and think, "She's going to get laid" and the fairytale nature of the woodland wedding seems more of an extension of the magic of Chungamunga for these girls: it was really a rather chaste and magical event. What happens on the water is eternal and magical in a significant way, and it is even more of a fairytale, love at first sight, joining of souls and celebrating futures than anything else. Really, to be able to participate in a "wedding" is important to a group of young women who know that they might not live long enough to have one in their future.

[Sunltcloud]

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troubleactingnormal wrote:

I think that the Chungamunga girls create some of the most beautiful and powerful moments in the book. I suppose that in some way shows my personal attachment to the rituals and traditions of my camp and my all-girls boarding school. I think that it is a significant and important challenge to help girls be girls in adolescence, especially in a world where "sexting" is a word. It seems that the Chungamunga program does a beautiful job of that with a group of girls living in a situation that obviously makes them old before their time.

I had no problem at all with the wedding in the woods, and I think that the situation there was fitting for the circumstances and the goals of the program. I don't know about everyone else here, but I certainly had fantasies of meeting and marrying my prince long before I thought about the sexual implications of marriage. As somehow who is currently planning a wedding, I think and hope that the symbolism of even our fairly traditional event will not center on our sexuality. Of course that is important and implied, but it is not the focus. I don't think even the most jaded look at a bride in a fairy tale wedding and think, "She's going to get laid" and the fairytale nature of the woodland wedding seems more of an extension of the magic of Chungamunga for these girls: it was really a rather chaste and magical event. What happens on the water is eternal and magical in a significant way, and it is even more of a fairytale, love at first sight, joining of souls and celebrating futures than anything else. Really, to be able to participate in a "wedding" is important to a group of young women who know that they might not live long enough to have one in their future.

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I didn't have a problem with the wedding either, believe me; I only questioned the follow-through on an established theme by the author. It was stated that the girls were making "their own culture, where the girls are strong and heroic." I would have maybe expected a crowning of Mary as princess of corvids, or a ritual in which they would have prepared her for a "maiden voyage" on the river, or maybe they would have strewn flower petals along a path that would have led her away into the woods to find her prince. I was just surprised that the "prince" was actually present in the ritual.

[GreenFairyLV]

What is your impression of the romance of being a "Chungamunga Girl?"

It's magical.

How is the singular and mysterious nature of the invitation contrasted with the diagnosis each of the girls has received?

They feel extremely special and lucky for once.

When Cobb asks Myrtle if she'd like to be a minister, she answers, "I won't live long enough to be anything. Today I am whatever I will be." What is your impression of the level of understanding that these girls have about their own conditions? How do you think Mary's attitude about the possibility of her condition is similar to or different than Myrtles?

They have had to grow up so fast and deal with the fact they are going to die so they can start living. 

What is your understanding of what they mean when the girls say "I am eternal on this water?"

On the water they are special, alive and illness does not dominate their life.  They are at peace on the river and will forever be remembered.

What do you make of Wally?

Love her. Love the fact that she puts on a persona for the girls to remember.

[maxcat]

I know this has been probably said but it came to me just thinking about the book. The river is endless and will always be there, has been there for eons of time. There are probably very few changes if any in the way the river flows. The rapids were probably there and the boulders creating the rapids shaped them. The Chungamunga foundation will always be there by the river whether there are new girls or not.... eternal on the river. That is how it was explained to Cobb.

[Leeza14]

And to add to maxcat's thoughts, I'll bet there is comfort for the girls, knowing the river IS a constant -- since they will all be facing some major changes with their individual illnesses, having that constant in their lives, if only in their memories, is a comfort and a place they can always return to in their minds.

[Peppermill]

I wonder where the name Chungamunga Girls came from.

Pakistan has a Chungamunga Jungle, apparently.  Is there also a music group or type by that name?  (I can so easily show my ignorance here.)

I got to wondering what real groups like Chungamunga exist.  I found these in a rather quick search:

A List of Camps for Special Needs Children  -- there seem to be resources in virtually every state.

Pine Tree Camp
Offers Maine children and adults with disabilities an extraordinary summer camp experience. The 280 - acre camp is located on North Pond in Rome, Maine. The facility is fully adapted to meet the special needs of campers. The barrier-free setting and commitment of our staff allow campers to fully participate in activities that normally aren't available to them including swimming, fishing, boating, outdoor games, kayaking, arts and crafts and even camping in a tent under the stars.

I even wondered if this latter might be one that Monninger knows.

[Sunrunner36]

Well I haven't gotten that far and am looking forward to seeing what is so special about the Chungamunga girls that they are luck for the person whom runs across them.  It wasn't suprising that Mary and Cobb got together.  Just from the way it is described you know and I like that.  Yes, Wally is a bear; I just don't know to what extent he is still a bear.  I am able to read and get into the book and at the same time able to put it down for extended periods without feeling like I am missing something.

[Vermontcozy]

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Peppermill wrote:

I wonder where the name Chungamunga Girls came from.

Pakistan has a Chungamunga Jungle, apparently.  Is there also a music group or type by that name?  (I can so easily show my ignorance here.)

I got to wondering what real groups like Chungamunga exist.  I found these in a rather quick search:

A List of Camps for Special Needs Children  -- there seem to be resources in virtually every state.

Pine Tree Camp
Offers Maine children and adults with disabilities an extraordinary summer camp experience. The 280 - acre camp is located on North Pond in Rome, Maine. The facility is fully adapted to meet the special needs of campers. The barrier-free setting and commitment of our staff allow campers to fully participate in activities that normally aren't available to them including swimming, fishing, boating, outdoor games, kayaking, arts and crafts and even camping in a tent under the stars.

I even wondered if this latter might be one that Monninger knows.

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That would be quite interesting if in fact Joseph does have a connection to the camp that you mentioned.I was thinking (,that can be can be dangerous Peppermill).,about many questions,to ask ,I am only reading up to Chapter 10,just finished 9..Careful not to read any spoilers or post any..Vtc

[Deltadawn]

I agree completely! Well said!

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Leeza14 wrote:

What is your understanding of what they mean when the girls say "I am eternal on this water?"

I agree with a lot of what's been said.  They know they are a part of something very, very special (the Chungamungas), and that will never leave them.  It is forming who they will be for however long they have in this life.  Likewise, they will never spiritually leave the river.  They'll forever be tied to the almost mystical experience of their time there, and they will always be a part of that river (all figuratively and one, certainly, literally). 

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[Deltadawn]

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Rachel-K wrote:

What is your impression of the romance of being a "Chungamunga Girl?"  

As others have stated, being a Chungamunga girl is very special- mystical and magical.

How is the singular and mysterious nature of the invitation contrasted with the diagnosis each of the girls has received?  

The mysterious and magical nature of the invitation is the complete opposite of a diagnosis - which is stark, clinical, and ultimately, in their cases, very bad news.The invitation, on the other hand, brings a magical element, anticipation and planning, excitement and a wonderful experience to look forward to.

When Cobb asks Myrtle if she'd like to be a minister, she answers, "I won't live long enough to be anything. Today I am whatever I will be." What is your impression of the level of understanding that these girls have about their own conditions? How do you think Mary's attitude about the possibility of her condition is similar to or different than Myrtles?

 The girls understand that their conditions will shorten their lives and they value the life and time they have- as we see with Myrtle most specifically. Being a Chungamunga girl helps them to appreciate their value and live their lives to the fullest.

Mary seems to have accepted the fact of her condition on one hand (in that she does live her life to the fullest) however she doesn't know for sure whether the disease will present itself. Myrtle lives every day to the fullest because she knows she will not have long to do so. Mary does so because of the possibility. She doesn't want to know for sure because she is afraid definite knowledge - either way - may limit her ability to continue to live as she does.

What do you make of Wally? I love Wally! And yes, she probably was a bear! haha

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[nicole21WA]

It's interesting how wrong first impressions can be.  When people were telling Cobb about the Chungamunga Girls, I really thought they were going to be a group of very rich, spoiled girls.  I think I thought that because of the reference to them always having plenty of food.  I didn't think they would be much of a factor for Cobb's story.  I was quite a surprised to find out that all of them will die young.  The fact that girls with such serious illnesses are camping with three college students, Wally, and Mary disturbs me.  It simply doesn't seem safe.  Maybe the parents agree to it because they know their children won't have much chance for excitement and adventure, but maybe they could have their fun someplace a little closer to a hospital.

I wonder why Mary was selected.  My understanding is that all the girls have terminal illnesses, not just the potential to have one.  It makes me wonder if Mary's mother had her tested for Huntington's without telling her.  And if alums are keeping the camp going, do some have really great insurance plans that eliminate the insane medical costs that must go along with their illnesses?  Because otherwise how are they providing funding?  When I try to be logical about the Chungamunga Girls, I get a bit frustrated.

[Tara_Golby]

This mantra of the chungamunga girls, "I am eternal on this water," is so simple yet poetic.  Even though they may not be living on this earth for too long, their spirit will be alive on the allagash.  They will not be forgotten by the people who love them or whose lives they have affected.

[brainlair]

Dont we all wish to be "eternal on this water"?  To be remembered, hopefully with fondness and love.  I love their motto and that this group allows them to have FUN before it's too late.  To let them know they are importt and their lives are important.  Them seeing what Mary has accomplished also gives them a sense of hope...

[SandyS]

Although we don't know the particulars of the girls medical conditions I imagine the conditions affect their daily lives.  Doctor appointments, medical procedures, family protectiveness - all cause these girls to long for a more normal life.

The Chungamunga Girls allow a few weeks where the medical conditions are not the focus of life.  Each girl can try new things, break some rules, be a little risky.  These things are important for any girl, but especially for a girl with special needs.

SandyS

[SandyS]

Thanks so much for the lyrics.  My husband sings this dirge and I always wondered where it came from.

SandyS

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I found this translation of the lyrics:

LAMENT OF RORY MOR

Give me my pipes, I’ll home them carry

In these sad halls, I dare not tarry;

My pipes hand o’er, my heart is sore

For Rory Mor, my Rory Mor.

Fetch me my pipes—my heart is breaking,

For Rory Mor his rest is taking;

He wakes no more, and to its core

My heart is sore for Rory Mor.

Hand me my pipes—I’m sad and weary,

These halls are silent, dark and eerie;

The pipe no more cheers as of yore—

The race is o’er, brave Rory Mor!

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[BaseballMomma]

 I love the romance of being a Chungamunga girl. I can only imagine having a life-threatening illness at such a young age, not knowing how long you have to live. Then somebody invites you, in a completely  unique way, to come and be a part of an almost secret society for month with other girls who are sick too. These girls get to be with others that they know are also sick, but they don't speak of it. They get to be normal together. I love the idea of that type of sisterhood.

When Mary described how the girls are each invited, it told me how serious and what an honor it is to be a Chungamunga girl. These people want to give them an experience from beginning to end, and it showed me how much it meant to the owners or donors that these girls are each made to feel special individually first before they have such a special experience with a group of girls.

I believe the girls all know the seriousness of their conditions, and it's shown with how serious they take the experience. Wally talks about how they usually resist at first because they have to leave all technology behind, but it seems as though the girls then really throw themselves into the experience. They realize they are given this opportunity for a reason, and so they're going to do this because it's a once in a lifetime experience. The perfect example of this is the wedding. They wanted to plan a wedding for Mary and Cobb and took it so seriously because I'm sure many of them realize they will not get to plan their own weddings. This was their chance to have that experience, which I think both Mary and Cobb knew.

I think both Mary and Myrtle have similar outlooks because they both believe in living life to the fullest everyday. They don't know what tomorrow will have in store for them, so they're taking it one day at a time. Mary explains this to Cobb, and Myrtle tells to him also.

My understanding of "eternal on the water" is that these girls become Chungamunga girls, and no matter what happens once they leave the Allagash river, they will always be Chungamunga girls. And the Chungamunga girls always return to the river, therefore they are "eternal on the water".

I think it's apparent all the girls are sick because Mary tells Cobb they are. The girls are ordinary in that they act like normal pre-teen girls do. When Cobb comes to the camp they surround him to meet him, and later the girls bombard both him and Mary with questions. Typical of pre-teens I think.

I really enjoy Wally. My favorite thing about her is that she dresses herself into a character to make it more of an experience for the girls. For me, that in itself told me so much about her.

[dhaupt]

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troubleactingnormal wrote:

I had no problem at all with the wedding in the woods, and I think that the situation there was fitting for the circumstances and the goals of the program. I don't know about everyone else here, but I certainly had fantasies of meeting and marrying my prince long before I thought about the sexual implications of marriage. As somehow who is currently planning a wedding, I think and hope that the symbolism of even our fairly traditional event will not center on our sexuality. Of course that is important and implied, but it is not the focus. I don't think even the most jaded look at a bride in a fairy tale wedding and think, "She's going to get laid" and the fairytale nature of the woodland wedding seems more of an extension of the magic of Chungamunga for these girls: it was really a rather chaste and magical event. What happens on the water is eternal and magical in a significant way, and it is even more of a fairytale, love at first sight, joining of souls and celebrating futures than anything else. Really, to be able to participate in a "wedding" is important to a group of young women who know that they might not live long enough to have one in their future.

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I too thought the wedding by the girls was magical and very fitting to what they represented themselves to be. And never once did the thought of sexuality come to mind when the wedding was performed.