Eternal on the Water: Chapters 9-10, Indonesia

[Rachel-K]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters. How does the story change?

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation? Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death?

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

What impression do you have of the mother and son at the end of chapter ten, when they come to see Mary off, and offer her their gratitude?

[sifu-hotman]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

She already knows what it's like from when her husband had the illness, she had a lot of time to process it (not to mention she's a nurse and sees this sort of thing every day) so she was sensible, and realistic in her hopes and expectation of the future. 

She put a nicer spin to the whole "you better treat my daughter well or else" when she told him that it's okay if he wanted out of this because of what he now knew about Mary, cause what she was saying wasn't for Cobb but to save her daughter from getting her heart broken.

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters. How does the story change?

Well, When they left the river I hoped that now they'd go back to their normal lives and their relationship dynamics would change; that they would start facing mundane day to day challenges that would either make them or break them. Either way make their relationship a little bit more interesting to read. but it was all pretty much the same on the island as it was on the river, and I was a bit disappointed. They were easy going and still sticking to their "I'm in love" story, which I know no one would say no to if it was to happen to them in real life, but it's just not completely realistic, and I was still having as hard of a time as before connecting to them.   

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation? Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death?

I wasn't disturbed, he was keeping his promise, but I was very surprised that after his talk with Mary's mother there was no more mention of his discovery. It was like he either forgot about it, or didn't care. I at least expected some inner torment over the whole issue.

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

Is he that guy who came to see Freddy just before Mary and Cobb left? (hope I'm not wrong here)

Well, I really wasn't thinking of that when reading that bit, but I'd have to say that he still remained as I always pictured him. To my knowledge most school lives are like that, so there wasn't any change.

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I didn't think of the boy saving business in that way. She was just doing what anyone would have done, it didn't change my opinion of her.

(And she wasn't mistaken for a doctor, they knew she wasn't one, they wanted help, any kind of help and she was there to help).

What impression do you have of the mother and son at the end of chapter ten, when they come to see Mary off, and offer her their gratitude?

Actually, my first thought when i read them coming was of course. Cause isn't it always like that in most movies and books, just before the educated american/ Englishman leaves a foreign country the people he helped all come to him to celebrate him and his clever modern ways. 

[CathyB]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

I liked Mary's mother. She has known of Mary's illness since she was a child and has obviously

come to terms with it. She loves her daughter very much and just wants her to be happy while

she can.

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters. How does the story change?

I liked the change of scenery. I prefer books set in different locales (namely countries other than the US). Did the story change much? No, not really. It was still the idyllic little love story. I liked Freddy ... I found him to be a very interesting character. I liked him and his turtles more than Mary and the crows/bears.

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation? Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death?

I am not disturbed by Cobb not talking about the revelation. I agree with Mary's mother. Mary knows and has known since she was a child. Giving her scientific mind, any amount of thought would dictate that in order for her to become a Chungamung girl, she had to be sick.Until I am faced with the situation of a loved one's sickness and death, I could not say whether or not it would be easy ... it would just be speculation; however, some things are easier to talk about/face than others.

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

Not really. It was just surface details.

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I found this scene to be a bit contrived ... so far we have dying girl meets boy ... instantly, deeply in love ... idyllic surroundings ... sick boy on island ... only person who can save him is dying girl ...

The scene did not change my feelings toward Mary.

What impression do you have of the mother and son at the end of chapter ten, when they come to see Mary off, and offer her their gratitude?

This is what I thought would happen ... it did not leave a big impression.

[CathyB]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

I liked Mary's mother. She has known of Mary's illness since she was a child and has obviously

come to terms with it. She loves her daughter very much and just wants her to be happy while

she can.

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters. How does the story change?

I liked the change of scenery. I prefer books set in different locales (namely countries other than the US). Did the story change much? No, not really. It was still the idyllic little love story. I liked Freddy ... I found him to be a very interesting character. I liked him and his turtles more than Mary and the crows/bears.

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation? Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death?

I am not disturbed by Cobb not talking about the revelation. I agree with Mary's mother. Mary knows and has known since she was a child. Giving her scientific mind, any amount of thought would dictate that in order for her to become a Chungamung girl, she had to be sick.Until I am faced with the situation of a loved one's sickness and death, I could not say whether or not it would be easy ... it would just be speculation; however, some things are easier to talk about/face than others.

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

Not really. It was just surface details.

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I found this scene to be a bit contrived ... so far we have dying girl meets boy ... instantly, deeply in love ... idyllic surroundings ... sick boy on island ... only person who can save him is dying girl ...

The scene did not change my feelings toward Mary.

What impression do you have of the mother and son at the end of chapter ten, when they come to see Mary off, and offer her their gratitude?

This is what I thought would happen ... it did not leave a big impression.

[pattycakeMN]

Mary's Mother is very  matter-of-fact on the surface, but may be hurting in the inside knowing that her daughter has Huntington disease.  It must be tragic to lose one's husband to the disease and then know that her daughter will die early from it.  I think she fell in love with Cobb as Mary did, and wants Mary and Cobb to have as much time together as they can.

The love story did not change significantly - not sure if we need all the kissing and nudeness !!  It was nice to read about Indonesia - I really like reading about the history of a country in books.

Again, please........just happening to run into someone who went to the same school that Cobb teaches in Indonesia.  I know that happens in real life, but the incidences of coincidences in this book are getting a little unrealistic.

I think Mary did a great job of telling them over and over that she was not a doctor, and does all she can to save the boy.  She asked for oxygen, other doctors, etc while doing what she could.

It was wonderful that the Mother & son came to see Mary & Cobb off - what a lasting memory of Indonesia !!

[Popper19]

 Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation?

I was not disturbed at all by Cobb not talking to Mary.  He was following her wishes and at this point I think he feels that Mary knows deep down that she has the disease so he's just going along for the ride with her.

 Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

The scenes regarding the sick boy were my least favorite of the book so far.  Cathy mentioned that she felt it was a bit contrived.  I agree.  I also felt that the outsiders (Freddy, Mary and Cobb) were pretentious during the situation. Although I appreciate Mary's moxy for stepping in and I don't feel that she posed as a doctor or was mistaken for a docotr, I feel she somewhat overstepped her bounds in taking ownership of the situation.  At one point Mary says to Freddy something along the lines of "it's up to you, it's your island."  The "it's your island" part really got under my skin.  It's not his island!  Yes, he's done a lot of good there, but he's needed to infilitrate a local (Lamb's) life and live with her in order to stay there and do his work.  I feel his work is important, but I would have liked to see a little more respect paid to the local island dwellers and more light shed on the controversy  of his being there and distrupting the local economy.  Don't get me wrong I love the fact that he's saving the turtles, but I would have liked a more realistic view of the situation. 

[sifu-hotman]

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Popper19 wrote:

  Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

The scenes regarding the sick boy were my least favorite of the book so far.  Cathy mentioned that she felt it was a bit contrived.  I agree.  I also felt that the outsiders (Freddy, Mary and Cobb) were pretentious during the situation. Although I appreciate Mary's moxy for stepping in and I don't feel that she posed as a doctor or was mistaken for a docotr, I feel she somewhat overstepped her bounds in taking ownership of the situation.  At one point Mary says to Freddy something along the lines of "it's up to you, it's your island."  The "it's your island" part really got under my skin.  It's not his island!  Yes, he's done a lot of good there, but he's needed to infilitrate a local (Lamb's) life and live with her in order to stay there and do his work.  I feel his work is important, but I would have liked to see a little more respect paid to the local island dwellers and more light shed on the controversy  of his being there and distrupting the local economy.  Don't get me wrong I love the fact that he's saving the turtles, but I would have liked a more realistic view of the situation. 

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Completely agree with you.

[pen21]

This section of the book made the characters more believable for me.

I really liked the book after reading the first section, but wasn't sure if this love at first site would be believable and carry through in the novel. Mary and Cobb became people for me. Freddy showed the characteristics of Mary and her family. I loved the Freddy character.

pen21

[DSaff]

I really like Mary's mother. She is down-to-earth, honest, and loves her children. Her attitude toward Mary's illness reflects the respect she has for Mary. Mary wants to live life on her terms, not a diseases'. Her mother appreciates that and is supporting her the best way she can. That is love.

Cobb reflects the same sentiment that Mary's mother does. He loves her unconditionally and will do as she asks. (I hope he continues this into the end of the book.) I would have thought less of him if he had forced Mary to "know" the truth. I also think that each person has to accept a life-threatening disease on their terms. Talking or not talking would definitely depend upon them.

The landscape does change drastically, but again shows a place I would love to visit. The island life is simpler, easier. The normal "beating drums" we march to daily are missing. Yes, there are things to do, but nothing that seems to inhibit a relaxed attitude toward life. I don't see any of the desire for "things" that fills so many lives. It is people who matter her. Love and concern for all life matters here.

It was interesting to read that the people mistook Mary's PhD for an MD, but that goes along with the lifestyle. I was impressed with the way the boy was saved. The community really pulled together for him. The gift they gave Mary was really neat. It was a big thing for them to find the clothing and special gift for her. Her "story."

[dhaupt]

Mary's mother Joan is the pragmatist in the novel. She's down to earth and a realist and it shows in how she deals with Mary's illness as we find out when Cobb talks to her after arriving in Indonesia and she already knows that Mary has the illness. She faces whatever she's given and lives through it.

The story changes in Indonesia by becoming more vacation like, Mary and Cobb leave the pressures of their "real" lives thousands of miles away, and even though they go through some pretty intense stuff here they still seem more relaxed and able to find out more about each other in a leisurely fashion.

Mary has made it quite clear to Cobb and everyone else that she does not want to know anything revolving around her "supposed" illness, so in my opinion  Cobb had no other choice but to NOT talk about it.

Mary shows us by not giving up trying to save the boy's life that if it's possible she'll do it, I don't think it relates in any way to her illness or how I feel about it. 

[HBT]

I think Mary's mother is like any other caring parent. I expected her to act the way she did in the book. She has personal experience from her husband's death of the same illness, and medical knowledge from her everyday job to give her a clear understanding of what her daughter is going to go threw. 

I am not disturbed that Cobb did not talk to Mary about what her mother told him. It made him more honorable that way. The conditions were that he did not tell her one way or the other. Personally I know it is easier not to talk about the sickness or death of a loved one. Of course it is different for each individual.

When Mary saved that little boy in Lombok I thought she was doing what anyone with knowledge and a heart would do. Of course the taping a snorkel in the boys mouth did not make any sense to me because they did not stick the tube down his wind pipe (unless I missed that part). But then the snorkel tube is too big to do that. So it seemed pointless to use the snorkel. Yes that did bother me a lot. I do not see this event as shedding any light on her own illness but I could have missed something. It does not change my feelings in anyway about her sickness.

At the end of chapter 10 when the mother and son saw Mary off, it was very emotional. Not the I need to cry emotional but there was so much respect, and a view into their traditions on the island. To see something like that in real life has to be amazing and impressive.

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[Bonnie824]

I saw Mary's mother as strong. I didn't blame anyone for not telling Mary, because I think deep down she always knew and didn't want to fully acknowledge it. The medical treatment of the little boy seemed kind of like a separate story, like the animal lore ones, and not really part of the overall storyline. Maybe symbolic but that is not my thing.

[HBT]

She was mistaken for a doctor. The locals came to her bother's house asking for the doctor. On page 175 it explains the locals heard that Mary was a doctor and did not make the distinction between a doctor and a Ph.D.

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sifu-hotman wrote:

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I didn't think of the boy saving business in that way. She was just doing what anyone would have done, it didn't change my opinion of her.

(And she wasn't mistaken for a doctor, they knew she wasn't one, they wanted help, any kind of help and she was there to help).

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[Joseph-Monning…]

Interesting criticism.  I see what you're saying.  I'm an old Peace Corps volunteer, so I understand the idea of westerners coming in and taking over a culture.  I didn't really think that's what was happening in this instance....she had some medical knowledge and they came to find her because they were desperate.  Her mention of "your island" to Freddy only meant that this is where you live.  But, okay, I see what you're saying.  It could be read that way, I suppose.  

Believe me, though, in three years living in a hut in West Africa, I had a million conversations about aid work.  I also worked near the Dogon Plateau in Maili.  The conclusion many PC vols came up with was that development -- if you want to call it that -- was going to happen no matter what.  The role of the PC vol and other agencies was to make it as gentle as possible.  Mary was talking to her brother, that's all, and was aware of his position on the island.  Freddy, if you remember, made sure to enlist the help of local fishermen and the "island fathers" in preserving the reefs...just like a good Peace Corps Volunteer would!

[sifu-hotman]

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HBT wrote:

She was mistaken for a doctor. The locals came to her bother's house asking for the doctor. On page 175 it explains the locals heard that Mary was a doctor and did not make the distinction between a doctor and a Ph.D.

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sifu-hotman wrote:

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I didn't think of the boy saving business in that way. She was just doing what anyone would have done, it didn't change my opinion of her.

(And she wasn't mistaken for a doctor, they knew she wasn't one, they wanted help, any kind of help and she was there to help).

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 oh ,right. My bad. I Forgot about that part. 

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[HBT]

I agree with some of what you said. The locals should have had more credit. However in the situation where help was not available and the locals did not now what to do, someone needed to take charge. They all looked at Mary for the help so it is only natural that she take charge. It was explained that Freddy owns the land with Lamb because outsiders have to have an Indonesian partner. It is also explained that she lives in her own home away from him. 

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Popper19 wrote:

 Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

The scenes regarding the sick boy were my least favorite of the book so far.  Cathy mentioned that she felt it was a bit contrived.  I agree.  I also felt that the outsiders (Freddy, Mary and Cobb) were pretentious during the situation. Although I appreciate Mary's moxy for stepping in and I don't feel that she posed as a doctor or was mistaken for a docotr, I feel she somewhat overstepped her bounds in taking ownership of the situation.  At one point Mary says to Freddy something along the lines of "it's up to you, it's your island."  The "it's your island" part really got under my skin.  It's not his island!  Yes, he's done a lot of good there, but he's needed to infilitrate a local (Lamb's) life and live with her in order to stay there and do his work.  I feel his work is important, but I would have liked to see a little more respect paid to the local island dwellers and more light shed on the controversy  of his being there and distrupting the local economy.  Don't get me wrong I love the fact that he's saving the turtles, but I would have liked a more realistic view of the situation. 

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[ethel55]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

I think she's a realist, between having a husband with the disease and being in the medical field. That's a long time, however, to live with that knowledge about your child and your child doesn't conclusively want to know it. (how she tested Mary after one of many childhood accidents)

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters. How does the story change?

Indonesia and meeting Mary's brother is an interesting interlude, but Mary and Cobb are still madly in love. I don't think it alters the story a whole lot.

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation? Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death?

 Mary specifically doesn't really want to know for sure what her test results are, so I imagine it would be hard, but not impossible to respect those wishes.

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

This meeting with the philanthopic Carters was one of my favorite parts of this section. His connection to St. Paul's and Cobb's life before meeting Mary reiterates what a small world this really is.  Their shared memories of a new library, old professors and the "foxholes" interject an old feeling of normalcy into Cobb's world.

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok. What do we see about Mary in these scenes? Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition? Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

I think it's her Chungamunga training, rather than her schooling or illness that  makes her capable of helping the sick boy. That said, it was kind of bittersweet twist that she could save hiim and not herself.  

[quiltedturtle1]

What is your impression of Mary's mother, and of her attitude toward Mary's illness?

As a nurse and someone whose husband died from the disease, Mary’s mother acts as I thought she would in the situation.  She has had years to accept it.  However, her acceptance  of Cobb and telling him that it is ok if he does not want to be with Mary after he finds out that Mary has the disease is a little wishy-washy to me.  As a mother, I would say that the most important thing is not hurting Mary and that Cobb needs to be certain that he can handle what is coming.

Our landscape changes dramatically in these brief chapters.  How does the story change? 

It becomes a honeymoon scenario for Cobb and Mary.

Are you disturbed by Cobb not talking to Mary about her mother's revelation?  Would it be easier to talk or to not talk about a loved one's sickness and death? 

I am not disturbed at this point in the story.  I find that some people do not want to talk about health issues, while others feel the need to talk about it.  Mary already told Cobb that she does not want to discuss it or know. Cobb may also feel that Mary will not allow him to be with her if he does not follow her wishes. Mary is very set on how she is going to handle everything.

When Ken Carter talks of going to school at St. Paul's, do you get a clearer idea of who Cobb is, or what ordinary life was like for him, just before the novel opened and he embarked on this adventure?

Not really.  I would have like just a little more background.

Mary is mistaken for a doctor, and although she explains that she isn't, she also rises to the occasion, and saves a boy's life in Lombok.  What do we see about Mary in these scenes?  Does the story of saving the child shed any light on Mary's condition?  Does it change your feelings about her sickness at all?

This part seemed unbelievable to me.  I imagine that the author is using it as an example of Mary once again living her life to the fullest possible because she may not live long. However, the extraordinary measures that she takes to save him, contradict what she is doing in her own life by not facing the fact that she has the disease.

What impression do you have of the mother and son at the end of chapter ten, when they come to see Mary off, and offer her their gratitude?

It seemed staged to me., but it may actually be a part of the Indonesian culture that happens all the time.

[BookWoman718]

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HBT wrote:

I am not disturbed that Cobb did not talk to Mary about what her mother told him. It made him more honorable that way. The conditions were that he did not tell her one way or the other. Personally I know it is easier not to talk about the sickness or death of a loved one. Of course it is different for each individual.

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I have to say I have had exactly the opposite life experience.  It was, for me and for most other survivors I have known, necessary to talk about the illness and death of our loved ones.  Both with the patient, while they were still alive, and of course after they are gone, with others.  I can't imagine keeping such strong emotions bottled away from your partner.  I understand that Cobb could talk to his father and to Mary's mother, and I'm sure that would help, but the sharing of the experience of life-threatening illness and end of life issues is one of intense intimacy. Even before you know "for sure" the ultimate diagnosis.  It is very much like the anticipation of a much desired birth;  you are sharing the very stuff of human love and life. 

[Fozzie]

While this was an enjoyable section of reading, I am left not knowing much more having finished the section than I did prior to starting it. We do know now that Mary is carrying the gene for the illness, so that is one big question answered. We learned that Cobb is still devoted to Mary, even knowing the results of the test. We learned that Mary’s brother is also very supportive of her.

What we do not know at this point is how Mary’s and Cobb’s relationship will function in “the real world.” So far, we have seen them together in the outdoors, in recreational settings. That could account for what some readers have commented on as perfect or idealized characters and/or situations.

What I anticipate in the next section of reading is the real heart and meaning of the book. I want to see what happens to Mary and Cobb in the real world. The section title is foreboding to me --- Wolves --- but I am looking forward to seeing how everything we have learned about and experienced with Mary and Cobb ties together and is wrapped up, so to speak, because I don’t think this is a story which will be tied neatly with a bow in the end.

[dhaupt]

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BookWoman718 wrote:

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HBT wrote:

I am not disturbed that Cobb did not talk to Mary about what her mother told him. It made him more honorable that way. The conditions were that he did not tell her one way or the other. Personally I know it is easier not to talk about the sickness or death of a loved one. Of course it is different for each individual.

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I have to say I have had exactly the opposite life experience.  It was, for me and for most other survivors I have known, necessary to talk about the illness and death of our loved ones.  Both with the patient, while they were still alive, and of course after they are gone, with others.  I can't imagine keeping such strong emotions bottled away from your partner.  I understand that Cobb could talk to his father and to Mary's mother, and I'm sure that would help, but the sharing of the experience of life-threatening illness and end of life issues is one of intense intimacy. Even before you know "for sure" the ultimate diagnosis.  It is very much like the anticipation of a much desired birth;  you are sharing the very stuff of human love and life. 

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It does make Mary sound really selfish when you think about it, but Cobb knew from the get-go what Mary's wishes were and he agreed to them just by showing up in Indonesia.

We're also not talking about a usual end-of-life situation here where the patient gets worse and worse perhaps goes from home to hospital to hospice and then dies. We know what Mary's planning and I think in that aspect it makes conversations about it almost impossible.

It's a decision I'd never want to make, one I hope I never encounter and one I hope I could make a good judgement about if I ever had to.