Eternal on the Water, Final Chapters and Whole Novel

[kaylami]

 During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel? Did you feel you had time to acclimate yourself to Mary's deterioration when some small details of it were given mostly as brief interruptions in the larger motion of daily life, family, seasons, and friends?

I thought it was important to tell the story this way.  Mary wanted to focus on life...not the disease. Mary and Cobb wanted episodes to be only interruptions in a good life for as long as possible.  Without too many details of her decline, it made the final chapters more painful for me.  It was too easy to remember a Mary full of life.  

Did you marvel at the number of people who show up for each of these goodbyes? How do her friends' actions at this time show their own characters, or reveal how each of them related to Mary? 

It wasn't suprising to read that so many people were at her retirement or her final farewell. It shows how Mary loved with an unconditional heart.  I don't think a teacher ever knows how many lives they really touch.  Also these people knew that they wouldn't have an opportunity to run into her at another time or place to tell her thank you.  This was it...it was their last chance.  If we all knew when the last time was that we would see a loved one...we'd all do everything in our power to be there to tell them thank you for being a part of our lives.

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river? I think so many could support her because they knew that this is what she really wanted.  She was a person who truly lived life... she was never meant to finish her life in a nursing home.  I believe it was the most difficult for Cobb to let her go.  She changed his life...she was part of his daily existance.  It was only natural for the Chungamunga girls to bid her goodbye.  I loved the way it was done.

Is this a happy or a sad ending, for you? Now that you've finished the novel, what do you think the effect of knowing the ending had on your reading?  I believe I read in a description somewhere that it was a "heartbreaking" story so I was ready for that part...but I didn't expect to care about Mary and Cobb so much.  The ending was a mixture.  I felt sad for Cobb.  His life will feel empty for some time without Mary there.  I was happy for Mary.  She got the ending she wanted.  She knew it was coming and to die on the water she loved was amazing.  I had a brother who died in the hospital after a lengthy stay and he was an outdoorsman.   If he could have had a choice, he would have chosen Mary's way.

Were you surprised to find yourself back with the ranger, Sarah at the end? What's the effect of enclosing the whole story within this scene at the campsite with the ranger near Mary's body?  It brought the story full circle.  It was closure for me, knowing that Cobb "would go on" and that even in death, Mary touched another soul...the ranger's. Loved that they both saw the crow.

[Carmenere_lady]

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Rachel-K wrote:

During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel? Did you feel you had time to acclimate yourself to Mary's deterioration when some small details of it were given mostly as brief interruptions in the larger motion of daily life, family, seasons, and friends?  I thought the higher speed story telling was very effective.  It sort of simulated how quickly the years pass, each one with its significant milestones.  Yes, I felt I acclimated to the passage of time very quickly.

Did you marvel at the number of people who show up for each of these goodbyes? How do her friends' actions at this time show their own characters, or reveal how each of them related to Mary?  It is obvious that they love her and respect her and her decision, whether it be retiring from teaching or ending her life.

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?  They respect who she is, she has told them about her fathers last days and his suffering and they understand her reasons for her decision.  I'm not sure who the most reluctant person was.  Although the scene with the Chungamunga's is touching and beautiful I hope they don't get the message that it is always ok to end your life on your own terms in your own way.  Everybody's situation is different and what may be right for Mary may not be for the other girls.  And these are girls of various ages.  Sort of hard for the younger ones ot fully understand.

Is this a happy or a sad ending, for you? Now that you've finished the novel, what do you think the effect of knowing the ending had on your reading?  Just as it was a relief to Mary, so it was for me.  The effect was that it wasn't so bad because I had an opportunity to get to know Mary and understand where she's coming from.

Were you surprised to find yourself back with the ranger, Sarah at the end? What's the effect of enclosing the whole story within this scene at the campsite with the ranger near Mary's body?  No, Cobb was explaing Mary to her at the start so it follows that he'd been talking to her all night and finishing the story.  It's closure and Cobb is going to move on with his life and think about his future without Mary. 

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[thewanderingjew]

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide?

I am very conflicted about the idea of euthanasia although, in this case, I can understand that Mary made the choice on her own while of sound mind and was not coerced. However, asking people to assist you makes them complicit in an illegal act in most places. 

I wondered, if she was already dead when she was placed in the canoe, would her lungs be filled with water? If not, would the death be further investigated? Wouldn't an autopsy be required? Would it be discovered that she was really "murdered"? Would those who helped her be punished? Should they be? They took a big risk to aid and abet her choice.

It is funny, but way back when I was in college, in the sixties, I wrote a term paper on euthanasia. Who ever thought the question of its legality would still be going strong all these years later! I was unsure about the concept then and today, I am even more unsure. I hate unnecessary suffering. I wouldn't want to suffer or be given any extreme life saving measures, but what about someone who would? How can we be sure the slope will not get more slippery and some people won't be coerced into accepting euthanasia because they don't want to be a burden to their families? How can we be sure that some people won't be unnecessarily sacrificed? Should we play G-d? What if you don't believe in G-d?

I keep seeing the ad by the former Surgeon General Koop about health care. He is in his nineties and is living a full life. Would the idea of euthansia put an early end to his life because of his medical needs? It would be a tremendous loss.There are so many issues involved. I didn't have the answers when I was young and I don't have them now that I am older. I guess I am not wiser when it comes to this subject.

I thought the author handled it well and with compassion and I sympathized with the characters and didn't judge them at all.

[Tarri]

During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel? Did you feel you had time to acclimate yourself to Mary's deterioration when some small details of it were given mostly as brief interruptions in the larger motion of daily life, family, seasons, and friends?

I thought the higher-speed story-telling  was perfect as it showed that Cobb and Mary had good days and mundane days, many more than just the bad days.  

Mary's send off: Mary has two chances to say goodbye to many people who love her, the first being her retirement, and the second being the gathering at the campsite just before her death. In small ways the two scenes mirror each other, but the distance between them also shows how much she has lost to the disease in a brief period of time, since she was unable to stand or speak much at the end.

I was in the waiting room of my car dealership and crying as I read the retirement scene.  It was absolutely a perfect segue into the next phase of her illness.  The goodbye at the campground was more intimate and I almost felt as if I was easedropping on a wake. 

Is this a happy or a sad ending, for you? Now that you've finished the novel, what do you think the effect of knowing the ending had on your reading?

The ending is sad, because of Cobb.  I cannot imagine having to assist the person I loved, to leave this world.  To me, his was the ultimate sacrifice. 

Knowing the ending had no effect on my reading, except that it made the love story bittersweet.

Were you surprised to find yourself back with the ranger, Sarah at the end? What's the effect of enclosing the whole story within this scene at the campsite with the ranger near Mary's body?

Not at all surprised to end with Sarah.  The only thing that surprised me was the pills. 

I loved this book.  It is one that I will read again, recommend to all my reading friends, and buy as gifts when it is published. 

[Sadie1]

This novel had me engrossed from the beginning to end.  I did not want to put it down once I picked it up.  I just had to know what happened from the beginning.  Then once I knew that Mary had Huntington's Disease, I had to know more.

I love how Mary accepted her disease.  Even without wanting to know the test results, she knew, she had to know.  She was a Chungamunga Girl..it was a requirement to have a serious illness to be one of the girls in the first place.  I love how Mary lived what life she had to the fullest and saw the beauty in everything from the crickets to the birds and all in between.

I loved how everyone around Mary embraced Mary and her take on what she had to deal with.

The last chapters had me tearing up the entire time I was reading them.  I literally bawled my eyes out during the last chapters.  I was happy it wasn't drawn out.  Mary got to say her goodbye's and she got to leave when she was ready with the love and support of those that were near and dear to her.  I needed Francis to show up as a bear during the campout.  I needed that to make it through the rest of the book.  I had a chuckle over that.  It was so fitting and seemed to give Mary a chuckle too.

The story had to end back at the site with the ranger.  That's where it began.  It was no surprise.  It had to come full circle.

I had two personal friends that had Huntington's Disease.  They watched the demise of their father and watched the suffering their mother went through with that.  Then their mother took their lives in 2002.  It is gut wrenching to watch your loved ones die in front of you, yet they are still there but not there.  It isn't a quality of life for anyone involved.

I am glad that Joseph Monninger was able to put together such a beautiful story of such a horrible dibilitating disease.  He opened my eyes to some of what people with Huntington's Disease suffer through.  Even though I had two friends that were experiencing their father going through it and eventually they themselves, I never fully understood it.  I was much younger before my friends showed any signs, but I was there watching them suffer through watching their father suffer and the mother suffering through what she was experiencing with her husband and eventually her 3 sons.  Yes, she has a 3rd son with it too and at the time she took the lives of her two oldest, the 3rd son was showing signs.

Thank you Joseph for writing your book.  Thank you B&N for choosing it as a First Look.  This book needs to get out to the public to enlighten more people on Huntington's Disease while it also shows how a person can live what life they do have to it's fullest.  I don't know how a book gets chosen for Oprah's picks, but this one surely needs to be one. 

Lisa in Georgia

[fordmg]

Time roll at the end of the story:   I was ok with this speeding up of the story.  I would have had trouble reading through the slow decline in  days or weeks.  The emotional part of the story was already in place.  We know that Mary dies, we met all the characters, so now I wanted to get to the end.  This worked for me.

Two groups of people saying good bye:  I thought these were poignent scences.  I totally understand the large group of people at the university who came to her retirement part.  The people at the camp site were her family and close friends.  These two "good byeings" needed to be separate.  

Chungamunga Girls on the River:  I thought this was an especially nice touch.  I am afraid that I did cry during the ending.  Mary was special to the Chungamunga's by giving her nature talks and staying with them every year.  It made sense that they would come to say good bye.  

Why so many friends supported Mary's suicide:  There seemed to be many who supported her, but I don't think that the collegues and students were aware that Mary would commit suicide.  They just realized that she could no longer teach and was retiring and going into seclusion.  Those who knew were only those at the camp site.  We already knew of Mary's mother's attitude and Freddy's, so that did not surprise me.

Sad or happy ending:  The ending was very sad.  As I said above.  I cried even though I was just reading a book.   It is hard to see a lovely vibrant person decline.  I was feeling the loss of Mary.  The reason the book was not depressing is because of the friendships and support that Mary and Cobb cultivated. 

MG

[Fozzie]

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Rachel-K wrote:

During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel? Did you feel you had time to acclimate yourself to Mary's deterioration when some small details of it were given mostly as brief interruptions in the larger motion of daily life, family, seasons, and friends?

Were you surprised to find yourself back with the ranger, Sarah at the end? What's the effect of enclosing the whole story within this scene at the campsite with the ranger near Mary's body?

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I liked the technique used at the beginning of the last section of the novel, short sentences in which time passed very quickly.  I thought this was an effective way to indicate how normal and everyday Mary's and Cobb's lives were for eight years.  As readers, we didn't need to know every detail, but I did make sure I deduced how much time they had had together.  This technique also made the focus of the book on life and it's simple pleasures, not on Mary's decline. 

I was surprised to find myself back with the ranger, and surprised that Cobb told her the truth about what had happened.  I wondered what the section title, An Egg of Air, meant as I began the section.  I finished the book and immediately reread the prologue (a common practice for me) and immediately came upon the phrase "an egg of air," which Mary' down jacket had collected between her shoulders.  I thought it was very clever to open and close the book with this phrase.  It brings the reader full circle, the egg of air itself is a circle,with air necessary for life, and reminds the reader again of the circle of life, referenced so many times during the book through wildlife, the Chungamunga girls, and Mary's life. 

[literature]

The time lapse sequence used at the end of the book was perfect.  We were with Mary and Cobb when they first met and were getting to know each other, we trveled with them to Indonesia and met Freddy, we learned about Mary's mother, Joan, and then traveled with Mary and Cobb through Yellowstone and back to Maine again.  We learned about Mary's love of crows, and nature in general, and were privileged to attend some of the Chungamunga Camp events.  There was no more need to know about their daily life until the next phase, the onset of Huntington's Disease.  Joe kept within his style of writing, only writing what was important to the story.  Unfortunately, he started to introduce some clues that indicated the onset of Huntington's Disease to ease us into the final chapters.

Mary's farewell party at the University of New Hampshire was perfectly casted.  He colleagues, her current students as well as past students, and her family and friends.  Her short speech  basically told them good bye, "I am going before you on an adventure...and I meet it without dread."  She also thanked everyone in the room for having shared their lives with her.  She felt that attending this farewell party would give her a sense of closure on this part of her life.  This was just a general good bye to these people, the real goodbye would follow with her immediate family and friends.

I don't look at the last gathering of Mary's family and friends as supporting her "assisted" suicide but as a gathering to celebrate her life and leave her with their own personal good bye.  Annie and John brought all the food, the same stew recipe that they served when they shared their first meal together.  Freddy was there and he knew what he came to witness.  Joan arrived earlier in the morning than originally planned because she knew she couldn't wait .  She knew that she would have a hard time with letting go and because of her work with the children at the hospital, she knew what Mary would be going through.  Francis (the bear) played his piccolo.  Mr. Cobb was there and Mary considered him to be her second father. 

Mary loves these people and is happy to know that they have all made the most of their lives.  Annie and John have prospered with their lodge.  Freddy's turtle operation continued to be successful,he continues to get funding and has opened up on two additional islands.  Francis was working in an architectural publishing house, was playing the piccolo and getting some gigs.  Cobb became the Dean of Students and had finished his book on Thoreau's Maine trips.

Since the Chungamunga Girls were known for being magical and creative, they had to make one final appearance with something spectacular and I was not surpirsed when they appeared on the river.  I rather looked forward to seeing their presentation and was not disappointed.  The hundreds of floating candles marked the path for Mary's journey, with Wally affirming "We are a Chungamunga Girl, eternal on the river".

The actual suicide and the planned journey on the river was beautifully orchestrated.  Mary's and Cobb's love for each other is surely reaffirmed when he says "I loved her too much to betray her at the end.  I could remove this terrible weight from her body and that is no small gift.  I was glad to do it.  I was honored to be the last person she saw.  Mary taught me that life was for the living and I thanked her for the joy she had given me."  This says it all!

[fronkster]

Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?

I was suprised but then I wasn't suprised. I kinda just knew that they would be there somehow. They wouldn't have forgotten Mary. It's not their way.

During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel?

I think the effect would be that there wasnt as much pain. We don't have to go through that. At the end we know the pain she was in, so going through it wasn't needed

[Peppermill]

"I don't look at the last gathering of Mary's family and friends as supporting her "assisted" suicide but as a gathering to celebrate her life and leave her with their own personal good bye.  Annie and John brought all the food, the same stew recipe that they served when they shared their first meal together.  Freddy was there and he knew what he came to witness.  Joan arrived earlier in the morning than originally planned because she knew she couldn't wait .  She knew that she would have a hard time with letting go and because of her work with the children at the hospital, she knew what Mary would be going through.  Francis (the bear) played his piccolo.  Mr. Cobb was there and Mary considered him to be her second father."

I wonder what the legal precedents are like in similar cases, in Maine and elsewhere, and whether Mr. Monninger included some of them in his research. He has certainly touched one of those areas where our humanity comes up against our laws.

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literature wrote:

The time lapse sequence used at the end of the book was perfect.  We were with Mary and Cobb when they first met and were getting to know each other, we trveled with them to Indonesia and met Freddy, we learned about Mary's mother, Joan, and then traveled with Mary and Cobb through Yellowstone and back to Maine again.  We learned about Mary's love of crows, and nature in general, and were privileged to attend some of the Chungamunga Camp events.  There was no more need to know about their daily life until the next phase, the onset of Huntington's Disease.  Joe kept within his style of writing, only writing what was important to the story.  Unfortunately, he started to introduce some clues that indicated the onset of Huntington's Disease to ease us into the final chapters.

Mary's farewell party at the University of New Hampshire was perfectly casted.  He colleagues, her current students as well as past students, and her family and friends.  Her short speech  basically told them good bye, "I am going before you on an adventure...and I meet it without dread."  She also thanked everyone in the room for having shared their lives with her.  She felt that attending this farewell party would give her a sense of closure on this part of her life.  This was just a general good bye to these people, the real goodbye would follow with her immediate family and friends.

I don't look at the last gathering of Mary's family and friends as supporting her "assisted" suicide but as a gathering to celebrate her life and leave her with their own personal good bye.  Annie and John brought all the food, the same stew recipe that they served when they shared their first meal together.  Freddy was there and he knew what he came to witness.  Joan arrived earlier in the morning than originally planned because she knew she couldn't wait .  She knew that she would have a hard time with letting go and because of her work with the children at the hospital, she knew what Mary would be going through.  Francis (the bear) played his piccolo.  Mr. Cobb was there and Mary considered him to be her second father. 

Mary loves these people and is happy to know that they have all made the most of their lives.  Annie and John have prospered with their lodge.  Freddy's turtle operation continued to be successful,he continues to get funding and has opened up on two additional islands.  Francis was working in an architectural publishing house, was playing the piccolo and getting some gigs.  Cobb became the Dean of Students and had finished his book on Thoreau's Maine trips.

Since the Chungamunga Girls were known for being magical and creative, they had to make one final appearance with something spectacular and I was not surpirsed when they appeared on the river.  I rather looked forward to seeing their presentation and was not disappointed.  The hundreds of floating candles marked the path for Mary's journey, with Wally affirming "We are a Chungamunga Girl, eternal on the river".

The actual suicide and the planned journey on the river was beautifully orchestrated.  Mary's and Cobb's love for each other is surely reaffirmed when he says "I loved her too much to betray her at the end.  I could remove this terrible weight from her body and that is no small gift.  I was glad to do it.  I was honored to be the last person she saw.  Mary taught me that life was for the living and I thanked her for the joy she had given me."  This says it all!

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[BookWoman718]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

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Rachel-K wrote:

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?  They respect who she is, she has told them about her fathers last days and his suffering and they understand her reasons for her decision.  I'm not sure who the most reluctant person was.  Although the scene with the Chungamunga's is touching and beautiful I hope they don't get the message that it is always ok to end your life on your own terms in your own way.  Everybody's situation is different and what may be right for Mary may not be for the other girls.  And these are girls of various ages.  Sort of hard for the younger ones ot fully understand.

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 I agree with conflicted feelings about the presence of the Chungamunga girls;  it was, as mentioned above "touching and beautiful"  but I wonder that such a visit could easily be arranged.   Surely the girls' parents might have different feelings about someone taking one's own life, even in the face of debilitating illness.   If some of us adult readers are uncomfortable with the idea, then how much more so might we  be with our young daughters who might be swayed by the romanticism of the whole event into a wish to duplicate the emotion when things got tough for them?    Personally, I have full acceptance of Mary's decision and if I were her friend I would support her in any way I could, including being there to bear witness and say a final good-bye.  But I would not bring an impressionable child anywhere close to that situation.  

[aprilh]

I liked when the novel picked up in the last section. I was glad to see Mary and Cobb were able to be together for years at this point, not just months as I had feared. We had seen bits of Mary's deterioration previously (when she forgot where she was and what she was doing in Yellowstone), so I felt I had plenty of time to adjust to her condition.

I was so glad so many people came to send Mary off at her retirement party. It just went to show how many lives she had affected with her short time here on earth. She was truly one of a kind.

I think in the end Mary's friends supported her decision to end her life because they didn't want to see her suffer any longer. It must have been so hard on all of them to see such a beautiful, vibrant person become so sick. I think it was hardest on Cobb and Freddy to let her go. Freddy seemed to crumble when he first saw his sister and the realization dawned on him as to why he was back in Maine. Cobb was very strong for Mary's sake, but I can only imagine how hard it must have been for him to finally let her go.

When the Chungamunga Girls floated by on the river, I started crying. The description of the countless candles floating down the river and the girls following, chanting, "We are the Chungamunga girls, eternal on this river," was so beautiful. This must have meant so much to Mary to have a tribute like this in her honor.

When I began this novel , I wasn't sure how I would feel at the end knowing Mary planned her own death. However, after reading this last section and seeing how much Mary's health had deteriorated, to the point where she was no longer able to walk at the end and needed to be carried to and from the camper by the guys, I began to understand her thoughts. She was trapped in her own body. She was so tired and did not have any energy anymore. Also, how awful it must have been for her to not always be able to remember things she had always known. Although I am saddened by the loss of Mary, I am glad that she no longer has to suffer. I think Joseph did a wonderful job at describing Mary's illness. He painted a realistic picture of what life would be like for those affected by Huntington's. This was a marvelous novel and it will stay with me for a long time.

[carol_fa]

 During these final chapters, we get a time-lapse sequence of Cobb and Mary together with their friends over the last few years of Mary's life. What was the effect of this kind of higher-speed story-telling at the end of the novel? Did you feel you had time to acclimate yourself to Mary's deterioration when some small details of it were given mostly as brief interruptions in the larger motion of daily life, family, seasons, and friends?

I was glad that they spent a few years together before her death. It was so hard to accept it was time even though we knew it was going to happen. I liked the fact that there wasn't a great deal of detail at the end.

Did you marvel at the number of people who show up for each of these goodbyes? How do her friends' actions at this time show their own characters, or reveal how each of them related to Mary? 

It was wonderful how her friends were there to say goodbye. Everyone loved Mary, how could you not, she was so full of life and fun to be with. Her friends and family were her support, they understood what she had to do and why.

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river? 

I think they understood how Mary felt about her disease, I also think if it wasn't for Cobb she would have done it sooner. Cobb was probably the most reluctant to let her go, she was his life and he was hers.  I would have been disappointed if the Chungamunga girls didn't show up on the river.

Is this a happy or a sad ending, for you? Now that you've finished the novel, what do you think the effect of knowing the ending had on your reading? 

The ending was extremely sad for me, sad for all of the characters as well. Nobody deserves to have their life cut so short. I am glad that I knew the ending, it gave me time to prepare for the inevitable.

Were you surprised to find yourself back with the ranger, Sarah at the end? What's the effect of enclosing the whole story within this scene at the campsite with the ranger near Mary's body?

I think Sarah was in the back of my mind throughout the book, so I can't say that I was surprised. The ending all made sense, it came full circle. The entire book was so well written.

[thewanderingjew]

Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?

At first I questioned the judgment of having the young girls there on the river with Mary for her final moments. Then, I thought perhaps the young girls just came to say goodbye because she was growing more and more disabled and pehaps they did not know that her suicide was being planned and implemented.

Then again I thought that these girls were older than their years. Their ages were not as meaningful as a measure of maturity because the number of years they had to live was shortened from the norm.

There was a time when average lifespans were much shorter and children matured and supported themselves at a much younger age. Nine and ten year olds cared for their families, set off on their own to work or apprentice and start a life and generally became grown ups long before what we would consider their adulthood and their readiness to take on responsibility and make responsible choices.
Maybe the Chungamunga girls were far ahead of the young adults who were their peers but who were healthy. Maybe their illnesses made them much more aware of life's challenges and made them more capable of making adult decisions about their own welfare. Maybe death was always looking at them more directly and they knew how to face it more maturely than those of us looking on. Maybe their sense of community made them stronger and more able to face life and all the difficult choices that they would face because they had each other's support.  After all, these girls knew they were facing death sooner rather than later so exposing them to Mary was not really poor judgment but just life, as they were going to have to face it.

I think I would want to be with the people who cared about me and understood me best, while we were able to appreciate each other's presence rather than having them around watching me suffer in my final moments at a pity party. I don't think I would want to have a sad outpouring for me, if I could prevent it, but rather I think I would want to have a celebration of what I accomplished so I could leave those happy memories as my legacy. I think the Chungamunga girls were celebrating Mary's life as they would want theirs celebrated.

[kaylami]

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BookWoman718 wrote:

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

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Rachel-K wrote:

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?  They respect who she is, she has told them about her fathers last days and his suffering and they understand her reasons for her decision.  I'm not sure who the most reluctant person was.  Although the scene with the Chungamunga's is touching and beautiful I hope they don't get the message that it is always ok to end your life on your own terms in your own way.  Everybody's situation is different and what may be right for Mary may not be for the other girls.  And these are girls of various ages.  Sort of hard for the younger ones ot fully understand.

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 I agree with conflicted feelings about the presence of the Chungamunga girls;  it was, as mentioned above "touching and beautiful"  but I wonder that such a visit could easily be arranged.   Surely the girls' parents might have different feelings about someone taking one's own life, even in the face of debilitating illness.   If some of us adult readers are uncomfortable with the idea, then how much more so might we  be with our young daughters who might be swayed by the romanticism of the whole event into a wish to duplicate the emotion when things got tough for them?    Personally, I have full acceptance of Mary's decision and if I were her friend I would support her in any way I could, including being there to bear witness and say a final good-bye.  But I would not bring an impressionable child anywhere close to that situation.  

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I think it's important to remember that these are not just ordinary girls.  These are all girls facing serious illnesses.  I would think in a special camp like this, these girls are prepared to respect each other's decisions on how to cope with their diseases.  I also don't think all the Chungamunga girls knew Mary was going to take her own life.  They may have been told that Mary did not have much time left and she was there for her last visit to the river.  They could be simply saying farewell much like the retirement party.  I think the only individuals that knew the plan were the people in camp that day and Wally.

[literature]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide?

I am very conflicted about the idea of euthanasia although, in this case, I can understand that Mary made the choice on her own while of sound mind and was not coerced. However, asking people to assist you makes them complicit in an illegal act in most places. 

I wondered, if she was already dead when she was placed in the canoe, would her lungs be filled with water? If not, would the death be further investigated? Wouldn't an autopsy be required? Would it be discovered that she was really "murdered"? Would those who helped her be punished? Should they be? They took a big risk to aid and abet her choice.

It is funny, but way back when I was in college, in the sixties, I wrote a term paper on euthanasia. Who ever thought the question of its legality would still be going strong all these years later! I was unsure about the concept then and today, I am even more unsure. I hate unnecessary suffering. I wouldn't want to suffer or be given any extreme life saving measures, but what about someone who would? How can we be sure the slope will not get more slippery and some people won't be coerced into accepting euthanasia because they don't want to be a burden to their families? How can we be sure that some people won't be unnecessarily sacrificed? Should we play G-d? What if you don't believe in G-d?

I keep seeing the ad by the former Surgeon General Koop about health care. He is in his nineties and is living a full life. Would the idea of euthansia put an early end to his life because of his medical needs? It would be a tremendous loss.There are so many issues involved. I didn't have the answers when I was young and I don't have them now that I am older. I guess I am not wiser when it comes to this subject.

I thought the author handled it well and with compassion and I sympathized with the characters and didn't judge them at all.

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Hi Wanderingjew,

Mary died before the canoe filled with water.  As Cobb was riding along side her on the river, he mentions that he saw her hand trailing lifeless in the water, catching some leaves, and he knew she was gone.  Unfortunately I didn't bring the book to work with me today but if you re-read the last few pages, you will see it (and you can cry again).  Since the previous day, life had been slipping  away from her and I'm sure Cobb would make sure she was gone before the kayak filled with water.  In her weakened state, I'm sure it didn't take much.  I know Joe would never write it any other way.

[SandyS]

Fozzie,  I agree with your thoughts and insight.  Thanks for your post tying the Egg of Air together for me.  That was elusive.

SandyS

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Fozzie wrote:

I liked the technique used at the beginning of the last section of the novel, short sentences in which time passed very quickly.  I thought this was an effective way to indicate how normal and everyday Mary's and Cobb's lives were for eight years.  As readers, we didn't need to know every detail, but I did make sure I deduced how much time they had had together.  This technique also made the focus of the book on life and it's simple pleasures, not on Mary's decline. 

I was surprised to find myself back with the ranger, and surprised that Cobb told her the truth about what had happened.  I wondered what the section title, An Egg of Air, meant as I began the section.  I finished the book and immediately reread the prologue (a common practice for me) and immediately came upon the phrase "an egg of air," which Mary' down jacket had collected between her shoulders.  I thought it was very clever to open and close the book with this phrase.  It brings the reader full circle, the egg of air itself is a circle,with air necessary for life, and reminds the reader again of the circle of life, referenced so many times during the book through wildlife, the Chungamunga girls, and Mary's life. 

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[thewanderingjew]

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Hi,

Thanks for your comments. I did know that Mary died before the canoe sank and that is why I wondered whether or not (in this kind of a case), there would be water in her lungs. If there was an autopsy would it ultimately lead to a murder investigation? She was obviously not in shape to carry out this plan alone. It doesn't matter whether or not we sympathize with Mary's wishes, I was questioning the legality of such a plan and the ultimate possible consequences to those who assisted her. Although we may think they were innocent because she was so ill, the laws are often not kind or ethical, they are simply the laws of the land and those kind of extraneous circumstances are rarely considered in such cases. All that they consider is the taking of the life, not the quality of the life or how much life was left. I suppose Cobb was willing to risk it all because she was, to him, his purpose and his life, but the other's involvement leaves more unanswered questions. They were risking a lot by being accessories and their lives could really have been negatively impacted even though  they still had so much more to live for. I suppose how we feel depends on how we feel about life and death...and euthanasia.
twj

literature wrote:

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Hi Wanderingjew,

Mary died before the canoe filled with water.  As Cobb was riding along side her on the river, he mentions that he saw her hand trailing lifeless in the water, catching some leaves, and he knew she was gone.  Unfortunately I didn't bring the book to work with me today but if you re-read the last few pages, you will see it (and you can cry again).  Since the previous day, life had been slipping  away from her and I'm sure Cobb would make sure she was gone before the kayak filled with water.  In her weakened state, I'm sure it didn't take much.  I know Joe would never write it any other way.

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[literature]

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BookWoman718 wrote:

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

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Rachel-K wrote:

How do you think so many of their friends could support Mary's assisted suicide? Who among them is most reluctant to let her go? Were you surprised to see the Chungamunga girls on the river?  They respect who she is, she has told them about her fathers last days and his suffering and they understand her reasons for her decision.  I'm not sure who the most reluctant person was.  Although the scene with the Chungamunga's is touching and beautiful I hope they don't get the message that it is always ok to end your life on your own terms in your own way.  Everybody's situation is different and what may be right for Mary may not be for the other girls.  And these are girls of various ages.  Sort of hard for the younger ones ot fully understand.

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 I agree with conflicted feelings about the presence of the Chungamunga girls;  it was, as mentioned above "touching and beautiful"  but I wonder that such a visit could easily be arranged.   Surely the girls' parents might have different feelings about someone taking one's own life, even in the face of debilitating illness.   If some of us adult readers are uncomfortable with the idea, then how much more so might we  be with our young daughters who might be swayed by the romanticism of the whole event into a wish to duplicate the emotion when things got tough for them?    Personally, I have full acceptance of Mary's decision and if I were her friend I would support her in any way I could, including being there to bear witness and say a final good-bye.  But I would not bring an impressionable child anywhere close to that situation.  

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Since all the girls in the Chungamunga group are very well aware of death, they are honoring one of their own.  These girls do not necessarily have to be told that Mary was taking her own life, just that the end was imminent and they would accept that.  Wouldn't it be nice to know that when their time came, that they, too, could have a beautiful send off, something magical? 

[nfam]

I thought Eternal on the Waters was an exceptional book. The ending was perfect. Everyone was so supportive of Mary and Cobb's decision. I thought the most beautiful part was the Chungamunga girls canoeing past on the last day.