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Rachel-K
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Malin and Permony

What are the characters of each of the girls like?

 

Why would Eva treat Permony the way she does? Is there a reason for her favoritism?

 

Why doesn't Elias stand up for Permony, and why doesn't Daniel?

 

Do your feelings for Malin change as much as Meridia's do?

 

What does Malin want or need from Meridia? What (if anything) does Permony want or need from Meridia?

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Shadowwolf36
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Re: Malin and Permony

Permony needs a mother. Eva treats her poorly and like a slave. Permony sees a playmate (her sister won't spend time with her) and a mother figure in Meridia. Merida feels the need to mother her as well, seeing a little of herself in Permony.

 

Malin is more like her mother with a mostly sour disposition. I can't figure out exactly why Eva would treat them so differently. Nor can I understand why neither Elias or Daniel truly stand up for Permony...are they just so used to everything the way it has been or do the bees have anything to do with it?

 

Malin needs Meridia to do what she does not have the courage to do and that is stand up to Eva.

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Paul_Hochman
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Re: Malin and Permony

[ Edited ]

I found Erick's use of the name "Malin" curious. It's Swedish in origin and pretty much unheard of outside of Scandinavia. Does this somehow place our story? 

 

The name means ''woman from Magdala'', which brings up all kinds of connotations...

Message Edited by PaulH on 06-08-2009 10:15 AM
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dhaupt
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Re: Malin and Permony

Malin is changing in my mind, but  I don't know wether to believe her or not about why she told Meridia about Eva's slander of her. Is it for her own gain or does she really want to help Meridia out.

 

Permony is a shadow in the family and I think with Meridia's help she could grow up more confident.

 

I don't know why Elias doesn't stand up for Permony publicly, he should but is cowed by Eva, but Daniel's not standing up for her doesn't surprise me. He's only her brother so not only doesn't he have a clue about being a girl, but brothers in my dealings with mine pretty much stay out of the politics of the females of the family.

 

Permony just wants to be loved and noticed and is happy that both occur with Meridia, like I said above the jury is still out on Malin and her wants and needs from Meridia. 

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booksJT
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Re: Malin and Permony

Permony is lonely and unhappy. Her mother mistreats her because she never wanted her. Malin on the other hand is her precious child because she was conceived out of love.

 

Eva treats them differently because Malin was the first and Permony was not conceived out of love. It was as if she was forced to have this last child. Eva resents her because she had to carry her full term and raise her.

 

The father nor Daniel will stand up for her because Eva has instilled fear in both of them. In order to get along with her they let her do as she pleases.

 

Yes they do. Malin was glad to see someone stand up to her mother. She probably would have loved to do it but was scared.

 

She needs Meridia to be her friend and confidant. She also wants Meridia to have enough courage to standup to her mother.

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emmagrace
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Re: Malin and Permony

Poor Permony is a lonely, quiet girl most likely because she is constantly belittled by her mother.

 

Malin is rude and obnoxious because she is spoiled and doted on by her mother.

 

I think that Eva is mean to Permony because her husband is very fond of Permony.

 

Elias and Daniel do not stand up for Permony because they are afraid of Eva. She has her "bees" constantly in their faces.

 

The girls both need some form of real love and warmth from Meridia. She is the only one who stands up to their mother and sees her for what she truly is.

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artist4nature
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Re: Malin and Permony

The family on Orchard Street is dominated by Eva.  Her words and actions are tormenting like swarms of bees.  Malin seems to be her favorite being the oldest and the more attractive.  Permony is favored by Elias and they both are targeted for Eva's incessant verbal battering. 

 

Permony has a female ally while Meridia is living on Orchard Street. Reading and making up stories, Meridia helps make Permony feel special. 

 

Malin respects Meridia only when she shows she can stand up to Eva.

 

As an aside:  I find it interesting that the female characters seem to be carrying the plot of the story.  The males seem to be under their power and play a somewhat secondary role.

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DSaff
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Re: Malin and Permony

When I first started reading about these girls, I thought that Malin was spoiled and lazy and Permony the quiet, picked-on one. After reading section two, I find myself feeling sorry for Malin. She has to endure her mother's mouth and presence more than anyone. In walks Meridia, and Malin gets a chance to fight. I think she has been itching to get back at her mother for a long time and letting Meridia know what is being said gave just that opportunity. Now, she could have simply been trying to solidify her position in the house, but I see some chinks in Malin's armor and hope that continues. Permony doesn't fight anything. She just takes it. That can get just as irritating as the constant harping and may be why Meridia was instantly drawn to her. I think Permony believes that her mother will love her is she continues to be submissive to her every whim. I hope she learns to value herself and her work.

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Malin and Permony

I found another site which links Malin to a different background.

MALIN

Gender: Female

Origin: Hebrew

Meaning: Tower

It is interesting since she did seem to turn into the tower of strength, in a sense, being the  only one who is strong enough to stand up to Eva. She also becomes the catalyst that inspires Meridia to finally stop acting weak in the face of her mother-in-law, once she becomes aware that she is a duplicitous, dangerous, selfish and manipulative, cruel narcissist. Can you tell I do not care for her? Meridia finally stands up to Eva, after Malin exposes her, and demands what is rightfully hers, among other things Daniel.

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Malin and Permony


rkubie wrote:

1-What are the characters of each of the girls like?

Permony is a sad figure, abused by mother and sister alike. The only one who shows her kindness, and outwardly seems to acknowledge how she is mistreated, is Meridia. Her father secretly shows her affection and support because he is afraid Eva will discover his behavior and who can blame him? 

 

I keep wondering if the bees and stings are metaphors for Eva's sharp tongue and biting words or if they are actually real, creating this monstrous cacophony pouring forth from Eva's mouth, attacking those whom she wishes to punish.

 

Daniel seems to be in a state of arrested development, still a boy who believes that he can create the world he wants simply by thinking it or saying so and therefore does not deal with the reality around him but makes excuses for it until he is forced to grow up.

 

Malin is a strong young girl who appears not to tolerate weakness in others and perceives her cruelty toward her sister, mother and Meridia as a part of her own strength, her own power over them. I don't think her means necessarily justified the end but without her, Meridia would still be weak and blindsided by Eva. I think she could have chosen a better way to stand up to her mother without using her mother's own type of cruelty against others and thereby becoming cruel herself.

 

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PiperMurphy
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Re: Malin and Permony


DSaff wrote:

When I first started reading about these girls, I thought that Malin was spoiled and lazy and Permony the quiet, picked-on one. After reading section two, I find myself feeling sorry for Malin. She has to endure her mother's mouth and presence more than anyone. In walks Meridia, and Malin gets a chance to fight. I think she has been itching to get back at her mother for a long time and letting Meridia know what is being said gave just that opportunity. Now, she could have simply been trying to solidify her position in the house, but I see some chinks in Malin's armor and hope that continues. Permony doesn't fight anything. She just takes it. That can get just as irritating as the constant harping and may be why Meridia was instantly drawn to her. I think Permony believes that her mother will love her is she continues to be submissive to her every whim. I hope she learns to value herself and her work.

 


 

You've made me understand something about Malin. I've been trying to figure out what she is up to. I agree that she has been looking for an opportunity to get back at her mother, but I think she was also testing Merida who passed. It looks like the members of the family are aligning against Eva. Elias took Malin and Permony to see Daniel and Meridia, and he is helping them on the sly. Malin's attitude toward Meridia has softened. Daniel has caught on to his mother to the point that he has Meridia cooking the books (I love that part). Even Ravenna and Gabriel are starting to look at each other differently. The only person who hasn't changed or grown is Eva.  Things are coming together for the battle that we learn about in the first line of the book. Possibly Malin understands that Meridia is the person who can finally stop Eva.
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Paul_Hochman
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Re: Malin and Permony

Boy, did I ever miss the mark here. Erick sums up the names and naming in the "questions for him" section of the board.

 


PaulH wrote:

I found Erick's use of the name "Malin" curious. It's Swedish in origin and pretty much unheard of outside of Scandinavia. Does this somehow place our story? 

 

The name means ''woman from Magdala'', which brings up all kinds of connotations...

Message Edited by PaulH on 06-08-2009 10:15 AM

 

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DSaff
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Re: Malin and Permony

You could be absolutely right about Malin.  :smileyhappy:


PiperMurphy wrote:

You've made me understand something about Malin. I've been trying to figure out what she is up to. I agree that she has been looking for an opportunity to get back at her mother, but I think she was also testing Merida who passed. It looks like the members of the family are aligning against Eva. Elias took Malin and Permony to see Daniel and Meridia, and he is helping them on the sly. Malin's attitude toward Meridia has softened. Daniel has caught on to his mother to the point that he has Meridia cooking the books (I love that part). Even Ravenna and Gabriel are starting to look at each other differently. The only person who hasn't changed or grown is Eva.  Things are coming together for the battle that we learn about in the first line of the book. Possibly Malin understands that Meridia is the person who can finally stop Eva.

 

 

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
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PinkPanther
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Registered: ‎10-26-2008

Re: Malin and Permony

**** My post may contain some spoilers. I am on chapter 27. Do not read if you have not reached chapter 27******

 

Malin is a very sneaky and snickering child, and Permony is a very shy and kept to herself child. They both have good hearts, altough  Malin does not show it very much until after the argument between Eva and Meridia. I began to like Malin when her father died and when she was preparing for her wedding. When Eva made the comment that her great aunt was showing up, and Meridia had to be kicked out of the main table, Malin told Eva that she did not have to sit at the table, but Meridia did. I was so glad to see that every person has begun to see the evilness of Eva. Malin also trusted Meridia not to tell anyone when she was in her first months of pregnancy. 

 

Eva treats Permony badly because Eva claimed that she took Elie's heart when she was born. She even goes as far as to call Permony her husbands whore. Permony was shocked by what her mother said, but Eva meant it from the bottom of her heart. Eva feels that if Permony were never born, she would still hold Elie's heart. She saw how Elie treated Permony differently from their other children from the day that she was born. It was also Elie that made Eva have Permony, because Eva did not even want more children.

 

 Elie does not stand up for Permony because he does not want to make the bees worse, or be bewitched to hurt her. He knows that if he shows affection or stands up for Permony, Eva will unleash a wrath that the world has never seen before. 

 

 Malin wants the courage that Meridia has. Malin has been the favorite of her mother, but was also hard to stand up against her mother. She saw how Meridia stood up against Eva, and since then she has gained respect for Meridia. Permony just wants Meridias strength and company. She enjoys the stories that Meridia tells her, and enjoys her positive personality. She knows that Meridia is always there for her, and she really enjoys the feeling of having a true friend. A good quality about Permony is the fact that she learns to ignore her mothers antics andjust slide them of of her shouldres.

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MSaff
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Re: Malin and Permony

Hello Everyone,

 

  Malin and Permony.  Such a contrast within a small part of a strange family. 

 

  I will take Malin first:  Upon my introduction to Malin, I found a self center little witch, who wanted everything and everyone she cared for to herself.  To me this was evident in the way she treated Permony and then in the way she ignored and treated Meridia.  I've met a few people like her in my life and they have never seemed to go far. 

  In the later part of this weeks discussion, I found her to be trying to get even or over on her mother or at the very least provoke the confrontation between Eva and Meridia.  She wanted to see or at least hear a battle.  Following Meridia and Daniel's reunion away from Eva and Elias, I saw that Malin had a newfound respect for Meridia.

 

  Now for Permony:   What I initially saw in Permony was a shy frightened little girl looking for love, friendship and companionship.  Someone to look up to as well as someone to show love and respect.  I especially found it extremely caring when Meridia would make up wonderful stories for Permony, and how she seemed to eat them up.  

  Permony immediately attached herself to Meridia as I suspect that she thought she may find a way out of her own home and a way into a loving home.  Daniel also appeared to have a soft spot for Permony.  To me, Permony remains the loving, trusting little girl.  I hope she can keep her love for life throughout the novel.

Mike
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LoBugs
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Re: Malin and Permony

What are the characters of each of the girls like?

Malin is the strong one and Permony is the weak one.

 

Why would Eva treat Permony the way she does? Is there a reason for her favoritism?

I think she likes pitting them agaist each other, I'm not sure if it's just because she enjoys the struggle or if it in some way makes her feel stronger.

 

Why doesn't Elias stand up for Permony, and why doesn't Daniel?

Elias is afraid of Eva so he can't help her directly with Eva. He can only slip her little things to make up for what Eva puts her through.  Daniel doesn't help because he just doesn't see the problem, he's blinded by his own relationship with his mother. He puts his mother on a pedastool.

 

Do your feelings for Malin change as much as Meridia's do?

I kept waiting for Malin to be setting Meridia up for Eva some how. But she does seem to have her own power that inables her to see her mother for exactly who she is and not make Eva feel threatened by her.

 

What does Malin want or need from Meridia? What (if anything) does Permony want or need from Meridia?

I'm not sure about what Malin wants. Permony wants someone whotreats her nice and wants to spend time with her, She needs a friend.

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debbook
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Re: Malin and Permony

I don't know exactly what Malin's intentions are, but don't think she is trying to help Meridia, she just has her own agenda.

Permony is a victim of Eva and I think Elias doesn't stand up to his wife because it would make it worse for Permony. Eva might even be more hateful and spiteful to her, just to get back at her husband.

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fifenhorn
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Re: Malin and Permony

Malin is mean, vicious, jealous. She gets her way with Eva at all times. Permony is quiet, subdued, tenderhearted. She gets her way with Elias at all times.

 

As someone with French heritage, we used the word malin to mean angry, vicious, or mean. The definition of malin is shrewd, or cunning; it is rooted from malicious.  Malin truly fits the definition of that word!

 

Since we don't know the early background of Daniel and Elias, one could assume that both have felt Eva's wrath when they stood up for her, so as it stands when Meridia comes into the picture, they won't do anything for fear of Eva. Daniel has seemed to be a mama's boy, too...easily swayed by his mother's opinions.   Elias, on the other hand, may not stand up for Permony at the very moment she is being persecuted by Malin or Eva, but he makes up for it in other ways.  This is likely the reason that Permony gets treated how she does...both Malin and Eva are jealous of the relationship between Elias and Permony!

 

As I read the book, I do see how Meridia's feelings could change...one can clearly see the manipulation that Eva uses to pit one sister against the other.

 

Malin looks to Meridia as someone who has the guts to stand up to Eva, when no one else can. Permony looks to Meridia as the mother figure she never had...someone who is willing to spend time with her and indulge her in ways Eva never would...or could.

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vivico1
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Re: Malin and Permony

You know, we all do what we need to do to survive. Maybe the ways we choose are not the best but we all have our own defense mechanisms. I was thinking about why Eva treats the girls the way she does and why Elias does and how the girls are now. I keep wondering about Eva's background that makes her the way she is. Was her parents, or mother anyway like this? I wonder if when Daniel was born, their first, if both Eva and Elias loved him, maybe even were in love, without bees. Maybe he did not have as bad of a childhood as the girls because he was male, and the first and Eva "owned" both males.

 

I wonder if tho,something from Eva's past precipitated her feelings towards Malin. And because to me Eva seems to be a person who wants to "own" people's affections, not really love them, maybe at first, she owned Elias's and even Daniel's when it was just them. Then she owned Malin and became jealous when Elias became loving to Malin too. So then the bees started at Elias for the first time or maybe just more so. I can not see her sharing Malin with Elias or anyone really so there is a barrier that is made between Elias and Malin that he just is not strong enough to break at that point. (This really is a story about women to me, so I don't see her fighting with Elias much over Daniel.)

 

When Permony comes along, this is either going to be one more person for Eva to own, or to hate. Maybe she had a younger sister take the attention she got from her mother away from her, or so she could have thought, as older children do sometimes. But for Eva, everything is exaggerated. I think she perceived Permony a threat from the first just as she does Elias with Malin. Elias, not having any real access to Malin by this time, held back by the bees, worn out by them, sees this little baby as someone he can love in ways he probably would have Malin, given the chance and maybe never could with his male child either. I have no doubt Eva, the know it all, knew of the things Elias did secretly for Permony and so she would degrade Permony to him, to Malin, to Daniel and to Permony herself.

 

I thought at first Malin was as bad as Eva, a carbon copy, but as I said, we do what we have to do to survive. Daniel stays out of it, which would be easy for a son to do and as the eldest child and male to boot, he probably had it pretty easy with Eva so tended to believe her, trust her. Elias doesn't do much either, trying to escape the bees that could destroy every good thing in him if he isn't careful. Malin goes along with Eva because as a little girl, it probably seemed right in many ways but as a female, I think she really understood more of what was going on then maybe we gave her credit for at first and without Elias or Daniel to back her up, it was much safer to be mean to Permony too and act like her mother, to survive the strength of the bees.

 

Permony, you do wonder how someone so kind could come from this family, or stay that way. But everyone has their own strengths and finds what will be their way. She did at least have some affection and backing from Elias, even if it was not public or in front of Eva, but I think this girl is starting to understand why. And as many of us can attest to in here I bet, she had her books! They were her way out of it. They allowed her to stretch her own imagination and be where she wanted when she wanted and were a strength to her. Another reason Eva would not want her to have them. I think she wanted from Meridia someone to help her just continue to grow within her own strength and ability to love. Meridia needed this too. I think there was actually a mixing of motherly love and sisterly love between them, an alliance of common souls.

 

I don't think that Malin had to particularly see Meridia stand up to Eva to respect her. I think she cared some for her in her heart already and wasn't sure what to do with it. It would not have been safe to show it until Meridia could show she could fight Eva on her own. I did not see these types of interactions at first so I didn't like Malin, but I do somewhat now, because I think she wants more, and to be different, but had no chance before. Actually, I think all of this family needed and still needs Meridia's strength to fight the bees! So maybe we have to re-evaluate Ravenna too then because Meridia does have her magical strength in this sense.

Vivian
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pen21
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Re: Malin and Permony

You made me think a lot more about what is happening in this family.

Families are very complex. I need to take time to think this through.

pen21

 


vivico1 wrote:

You know, we all do what we need to do to survive. Maybe the ways we choose are not the best but we all have our own defense mechanisms. I was thinking about why Eva treats the girls the way she does and why Elias does and how the girls are now. I keep wondering about Eva's background that makes her the way she is. Was her parents, or mother anyway like this? I wonder if when Daniel was born, their first, if both Eva and Elias loved him, maybe even were in love, without bees. Maybe he did not have as bad of a childhood as the girls because he was male, and the first and Eva "owned" both males.

 

I wonder if tho,something from Eva's past precipitated her feelings towards Malin. And because to me Eva seems to be a person who wants to "own" people's affections, not really love them, maybe at first, she owned Elias's and even Daniel's when it was just them. Then she owned Malin and became jealous when Elias became loving to Malin too. So then the bees started at Elias for the first time or maybe just more so. I can not see her sharing Malin with Elias or anyone really so there is a barrier that is made between Elias and Malin that he just is not strong enough to break at that point. (This really is a story about women to me, so I don't see her fighting with Elias much over Daniel.)

 

When Permony comes along, this is either going to be one more person for Eva to own, or to hate. Maybe she had a younger sister take the attention she got from her mother away from her, or so she could have thought, as older children do sometimes. But for Eva, everything is exaggerated. I think she perceived Permony a threat from the first just as she does Elias with Malin. Elias, not having any real access to Malin by this time, held back by the bees, worn out by them, sees this little baby as someone he can love in ways he probably would have Malin, given the chance and maybe never could with his male child either. I have no doubt Eva, the know it all, knew of the things Elias did secretly for Permony and so she would degrade Permony to him, to Malin, to Daniel and to Permony herself.

 

I thought at first Malin was as bad as Eva, a carbon copy, but as I said, we do what we have to do to survive. Daniel stays out of it, which would be easy for a son to do and as the eldest child and male to boot, he probably had it pretty easy with Eva so tended to believe her, trust her. Elias doesn't do much either, trying to escape the bees that could destroy every good thing in him if he isn't careful. Malin goes along with Eva because as a little girl, it probably seemed right in many ways but as a female, I think she really understood more of what was going on then maybe we gave her credit for at first and without Elias or Daniel to back her up, it was much safer to be mean to Permony too and act like her mother, to survive the strength of the bees.

 

Permony, you do wonder how someone so kind could come from this family, or stay that way. But everyone has their own strengths and finds what will be their way. She did at least have some affection and backing from Elias, even if it was not public or in front of Eva, but I think this girl is starting to understand why. And as many of us can attest to in here I bet, she had her books! They were her way out of it. They allowed her to stretch her own imagination and be where she wanted when she wanted and were a strength to her. Another reason Eva would not want her to have them. I think she wanted from Meridia someone to help her just continue to grow within her own strength and ability to love. Meridia needed this too. I think there was actually a mixing of motherly love and sisterly love between them, an alliance of common souls.

 

I don't think that Malin had to particularly see Meridia stand up to Eva to respect her. I think she cared some for her in her heart already and wasn't sure what to do with it. It would not have been safe to show it until Meridia could show she could fight Eva on her own. I did not see these types of interactions at first so I didn't like Malin, but I do somewhat now, because I think she wants more, and to be different, but had no chance before. Actually, I think all of this family needed and still needs Meridia's strength to fight the bees! So maybe we have to re-evaluate Ravenna too then because Meridia does have her magical strength in this sense.