Middle Chapters: 20 - 30

[Rachel-K]

Please use use one of these or one of your own questions to start discussing our current chapters!

Each new set of circumstances in the novel exposes us to another facet of each of the characters. In Daniel for example, we have now seen him as a lover, as a husband, as a son, as an in-law, and now, as a father. Is he a different character in his different roles?

How about Meridia in each of her roles?

How are you thoughts about each of the characters shifting? Pilar, Gabriel, Ravenna, and others?

Have you re-evaluated the love relationship between Gabriel and Ravenna?

How would you describe the end of Elias' life? Is this a man who lived a satisfying life at all? What were his biggest flaws and regrets?

How have Eva's tactics changed so far in the novel? Is there a chance we will see a better side of this woman?

[vivico1]

Eva's tactics change everytime her old ones don't seem to work anymore. Will we see a better side to her? Her tactics may change but I really don't see the woman herself ever changing. She wants what she wants and that's all that matters, so she won't change for the better with that in her heart. How each of the characters are in their roles I think just depends on who the object of these roles are. But then that is true of all of us. Not that all of us are like these people, but we wear one hat as a parent, one as a spouse and one as a child, etc. Some roles may be very loving, some may be at complete odds.

I liked something Daniel said on page 206, when Samuel says he has a good wife. Daniel tells him that if she were a jewel, there would be no price to her worth. This is straight out of the bible. One place is Proverbs 31:30 "Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.....She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life." Daniel at this time, really sees his wife as a "pearl of great price". Of course Eva now sets her bees at him constantly, trying to tear that down. Just as she tried with the bird she gave to Noah. Then when Noah turns on her, she sets her bees on Elias for 21 days and look what happens!

I don't know if Elias ever lived a satisfying life. I think he had his happy moments. He did with Permony, he did so much with Noah. And then when he was overcome by the bees he hurt Noah! I just couldn't believe that. That was a painful scene. And it was something Elias could not get over, ever. Who could with any love in their heart and Elias for all his weaknesses, did have love in his heart for, well, about everyone in his life. In his last days, the phrase on page 252 was an ironically true one, he had a "stroke of mercy", a rather good turn of a phrase, such as a stroke of luck. But here, he literally has a stroke and the mercy is all his painful memories and things that upset him are erased by his now damaged brain. That was mercy for Elias.

I have always felt Gabriel and Ravenna loved each other, but we knew something happened to tear them apart. The question for me is, can they ever come together again. It was a total suprise to me that Pilar was his mistress! I had for a time even wondered if he really had one, or if Ravenna only believed he did.

[vivico1]

You know, I am having more trouble deciding what I think about this book, the further I read. I really love the story of these families and all the relationships and feelings in them. And it goes along for some time really drawing me in when then, something happens that is totally told in a metaphor, or metaphysically and I suddenly have to stop and say ok, now what the heck was that?? Or I have to tell you, I am getting tired of Eva's bad emotions just being referred to as bees now or her actions those of the bees. It was kinda cool at first and I liked that little aha moment of hearing that the bees were actually words coming out of her mouth, in the earlier chapters. But now I would like to see her emotions and actions described in more terms. Rather than just picturing the bees around people now when she is at them, or more bees being more affect, I want to know what is in her mind. This is a very descriptive book but the bees are starting to wear on me as a description of thought or action. I am the one wanting to swat them away now and get back to the story! Also some things, I just don't get! Maybe someone who likes fantasy or supernatural books are loving this but I don't know. I mean, some of these people are dying and being buried. Others just become transparent, brilliant and just poof! Hey, saves on the funeral bills I guess, if everyone is fine in the story that some just do that.

I really do like the story, but I really am starting to not like the mystical way its told at times. Some of it is still good, some feel redundant and some just feel like, well I don't know what. But as I said, I do like the storyline enough to keep going with it. I want to see what happens to everyone. Its just getting hard tho. Is anyone having any feelings even similar to me on parts of the book?

[Carmenere_lady]

As I have stated in other posts, I have been having a hard time with the story from the get go. Yes, the bees are getting quite tiresome as Eva continues to drone on and on and on. We get it, she doesn't shut up! Any other man but Elias would have put a stop to it one way or another, especially after the Noah fiasco. The mists are just as aggrativating to me as the bees, though less so. It's a long story which repeats itself over and over again and I'm getting a little bored. I thought fables were short to the point stories with a moral. I'm still reading so I may hit the moral eventually, but it's not short. Some readers have compared this story to Life of Pi, which I love and holds a permanent place in my library, so I am still hoping for the best to come.

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vivico1 wrote:

You know, I am having more trouble deciding what I think about this book, the further I read. I really love the story of these families and all the relationships and feelings in them. And it goes along for some time really drawing me in when then, something happens that is totally told in a metaphor, or metaphysically and I suddenly have to stop and say ok, now what the heck was that?? Or I have to tell you, I am getting tired of Eva's bad emotions just being referred to as bees now or her actions those of the bees. It was kinda cool at first and I liked that little aha moment of hearing that the bees were actually words coming out of her mouth, in the earlier chapters. But now I would like to see her emotions and actions described in more terms. Rather than just picturing the bees around people now when she is at them, or more bees being more affect, I want to know what is in her mind. This is a very descriptive book but the bees are starting to wear on me as a description of thought or action. I am the one wanting to swat them away now and get back to the story! Also some things, I just don't get! Maybe someone who likes fantasy or supernatural books are loving this but I don't know. I mean, some of these people are dying and being buried. Others just become transparent, brilliant and just poof! Hey, saves on the funeral bills I guess, if everyone is fine in the story that some just do that.

I really do like the story, but I really am starting to not like the mystical way its told at times. Some of it is still good, some feel redundant and some just feel like, well I don't know what. But as I said, I do like the storyline enough to keep going with it. I want to see what happens to everyone. Its just getting hard tho. Is anyone having any feelings even similar to me on parts of the book?

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Message Edited by Carmenere_lady on 06-15-2009 07:35 AM

[Carmenere_lady]

Just a couple of ?'s that I haven't figured out yet:

Does anyone out there have any ideas as to why Leah sees Ravenna wearing black and Rebecca sees her wearing white?  What is it supposed to mean?

Another ?, can we be sure it is Ravenna putting the blue envelopes by Meridia's door even though Meridia assumes that is the case?

[Linda10]

Vivico wrote:

I really do like the story, but I really am starting to not like the mystical way its told at times. Some of it is still good, some feel redundant and some just feel like, well I don't know what. But as I said, I do like the storyline enough to keep going with it. I want to see what happens to everyone. Its just getting hard tho. Is anyone having any feelings even similar to me on parts of the book?

---

Although quite a bit has happened in this past week's chapters, I think the biggest "whoa" has been finding out that Pilar was Gabriel's mistress!  I liked her as soon as we met her in the story.  She seemed to be a very caring person and wanting to help Meridia.  I guess that's one sign of a good book/author -- being able to paint a picture one way, only to find out it's not the true or complete picture down the road.

I, too, am starting to have a bit of trouble with this book.  I will finish it.  And I will enjoy it as I continue to read.  But I'm starting to look over at my TBR pile more and more, itching to start my next book.  I tend to savor any book that I read, even if it's not as good a book as I had hoped.  But this one kind of reminds me of eating dinner.  I'm going to enjoy the chicken and the mashed potatoes and peas and anything and everything else.  I'll even hold off on dessert until later in the day because I want to enjoy what I've just eaten.  Judging by how much has already happened in this book, I'm sure that a lot more is yet to come.  But -- you know what?  That chocolate cake is looking mighty good right about now! 

[JerseyAngel]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

Just a couple of ?'s that I haven't figured out yet:

Does anyone out there have any ideas as to why Leah sees Ravenna wearing black and Rebecca sees her wearing white?  What is it supposed to mean?

Another ?, can we be sure it is Ravenna putting the blue envelopes by Meridia's door even though Meridia assumes that is the case?

---

I believe the question of the envelopes with money & the gold were answered in chapter 30.  I haven't read past chapter 30 so I know it was either 30 or 29. Meridia finds out from Pilar that Gabriel was the one that had been leaving the money & the bars of gold. I'm at work & don't have my book so I apologize for not being able to give a specific page number.

[dk_phoenix]

I hadn't thought about the black vs. white thing! Hmm... maybe I'll go back and look through it? I do think that Ravenna has a very dichotomous nature... sometimes she's coherent and responsive, other times she seems to sink into a darkness of her own making. Perhaps it reflects these two sides of her?

[dk_phoenix]

I also wanted to say, the mists DID bother me at first (I was just so frustrated at not knowing what they were), but after a time, I got used to the 'otherworldly elements' and felt like they seemed to fit in, ever so subtly. I liked it... it seemed to me that the 'otherness' of this reality was set up the first time Meridia was at the market with her mother, when she saw all those merchants with their strange ways and products. From then on it, I was willing to accept the mists and bees as a realistic part of the world, but I can see how it would be difficult to get used to.

I agree that it was difficult getting into the novel, but after a time it felt like I was watching people and how they went about their lives - rather than being drawn through a plot - and when I shifted to this kind of perception, I enjoyed the novel a lot more. It was tough going at the beginning though, I agree!

[babzilla41]

I am very frustrated with the fact that I am not catching alot of (most of) the metaphors in this book.  Admittedly  this is a new genre for me, and I am a literal reader, so that could explain a lot of the problem.   Although I enjoyed reading the book, I feel that I didn't get everything out of it that I should have.  I'm not sure if re-reading will help.  I was happy to step outside of the box and read something new, but now I'm not sure if I would try again as I would always wonder what didn't I get rather than just enjoy the read.  It has been helpful to read the posts, as they point out alot of stuff I didn't get, but there won't always be that luxury available.  Any suggestions? 

[Amanda-Louise]

Chapter Twenty

Eva is just despicable!  Meridia and Daniel are now paying her out of the savings!  And it seems that Meridia can't catch a break from any aspect of her life.  For some reason I had imagined Noah as a calm pleasant baby so I am surprised and disappointed to find that he's an irritable wee thing.

Chapter Twenty-One

Heartbreaking!  Daniel and Meridia are left with nothing but hope once Pilar takes her last jewelry.  I was glad that Pilar was paying for the surgery and not stealing the money, though!  I had a small feeling that she would take off with the jewelry.

Chapter Twenty-Two

Is there really a light at the end of the tunnel?  Some hope for Meridia and Daniel?  It's almost too good to be true after all they've been through. 

Chapter Twenty-Three

Oh - I love what happened to Patina.  She's finally relieved from her jail that is Eva's house.  However, I don't really understand the significance of it all - the hair, the fading away.  And what is the significance of Eva's hair changing colour?

Chapter Twenty-Four

Again, another overly dramatic but compelling scene!  How can Eva live with herself?  I so hope that Daniel and Meridia's pledge of independence is a firm one.

Chapter Twenty - Five

So good to see Daniel and Meridia prospering!  They also are really working together as a couple and as parents.  Finally, a sense of normalcy!  Do I detect some foreshadowing when Noah asks his mother if he'll be able to stand up to Eva?  Why has Patina presumably chosen Daniel and Meridia's old house to haunt?  It was a dark, not entirely happy place for them.

Chapter Twenty - Six

Interesting that Eva's roses are withering and declining - echoing Eva's own weakening of power.  And the marigolds are rowing more plentiful - has Patina faded away so she could more effectively help Meridia and Daniel as an unseen influence?

Chapter Twenty - Seven

I'm tiring of Eva and her mysterious, conniving ways.  Curious about how the bird met it's demise?  Was that Patina?

Chapter Twenty - Eight

I'm interested to read how Eva will wear widowhood?  And.....Save who?????  More questions!!!

Chapter Twenty - Nine

What a dramatic chapter.  What a gruesome description of the dead baby!  Why did that happen - to punish Malin (her change being too little too late) or Eva?

Chapter Twenty - Nine

Again, mention of some hard protrusion on the back of Ravenna's head.  Is this the bun she wears her hair in?  Meridia saw it much earlier as a bony protrusion now it's an iron, cutting one. 

I'm having a bit of trouble with this chapter!  So, the ice and cold in the house was coming from Gabriel all along?  Then why wouldn't it leave when he left for the day for all those years?  Was his influence on the house that strong?  And why Pilar?  I just dont get that connection at all.  Then Ravenna, Gabriel and Meridia walk home as a lovely little family once they've broken him out of the ice.  And these two women who have spent years being tormented by Gabriel actually take great pains to protect him.  They are soaked to the bone so that he is dry as a bone!

Chapter Thirty

I'm feeling rather as though this is all beyond my understanding - or that I'm trying to understand too much.  I'm certainly glad Ravenna's house cleared up!  All this time I thought it was her problem, but it was Gabriel!  However, I'm worried that Meridia's last attempt at a natal family is costing her the one she has created for herself (Daniel and Noah).

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Okay - one quarter left to go and still so much unanswered!!!

[dhaupt]

First off, It was really hard to put the book down after finishing chapter 30. I really wanted to finish. 

I see Daniel as always evolving to each role he fills, he's constantly learning and not afraid to show the people he loves that he's not perfect. He's also understanding and a good husband and father.

Meridia is also evolving especially in the role as a mother when she questions her coldness toward Daniel and wonders if that's what caused the coldness between her own parents. She's a good wife a great mother and a terrific business woman. She's very empathic towards her father and sisters in-law. I think she is slowly becoming the matriarch of this family.

My thoughts on Ravenna and Gabriel are changing and I don't think my questions will be answered until I read further and find out what becomes of this new caretaker role that Ravenna is in.

Pilar I feel sorry for I don't think this is her fault, I don't condone adultery, but I don't think she went looking for Gabriel I think he went looking for her and like some one some where I'm sure said, You can't help who you fall in love with.

The end of Elias's life was very sad for his family, but I saw it as a rescue for him, he no longer has to put up with the bees and the effects they have on his behavior and actions.

His greatest flaw was his cow towing to Eva.

Eva's is becoming more sneaky and inventive in her assaults on Meridia and her behavior toward Permony stinks. I don't think there is a redeeming quality in her at all. 

[chris227]

I just want to start by saying I think that this book just keeps getting better and better!  The twists and turns are great!  There is just so much to say about this book, so I'm just going to tackle the question about the characters shifting for now!

As the story unfolds we continue to see each of the characters change.  Meridia has gone from an "invisible" child to a strong, willful, cannot be ignored adult.  She plays multiples roles: mother, wife, shopkeeper, daughter, in-law, friend, and she does each well.  I love seeing her stand up to Eva - can I say my favorite part so far was when Meridia "hurled Eva against the wall" on page 230 - and in the beginning of the novel I did not predict this kind of behavior from Meridia.

We have also seen a big change in each of Meridia's parents.  Ravenna has been 'released from forgetfulness' and at times plays an actual motherly role.  She comes to see Meridia and puts the house in order when she knows Meridia needs her most.  We see Ravenna 'come alive' upon the Gabriels' leaving the house and march to the mistress's (Pilar!?!) house and demand to see her husband.  Even with her fights with the mist and standing up to her husband regarding Meridia's marriage I did not predict her actually fighting to get Gabriel back.  Gabriel, we learn, actually does care greatly for Meridia.  As Pilar tells her Gabriel loves Meridia more than Pilar.  It is Gabriel who ensured Meridia and Daniel's success by sending the gold bars and money.  I definitely did not expect this from the man who told Meridia she could never step foot in his house again.  Meridia's parents have grown on me more and more as the story continues.  Ravenna has become one of my favorite characters and though I still wouldn't say I like Gabriel he has grown on me!

Another character who has changed drastically is Malin.  Initially it seemed that she despised Meridia but she ended up, in the previous chapters, being the one to help Meridia see the truth about Eva.  Malin has come to admire Meridia.  I love that she has come to invite Meridia into her house as a friend and calls for her when she goes into labor.  Malin became less proud and less arrogant during her pregnancy.  She treats Permony better and actually sees her as a friend. Her labor (another horrible birth experience!!) was devastating.  How horrible that her child died!  This event changed Malin, as it would any woman, greatly.  She now understands whats really important in life.  Fashion and hair are no longer important.  She visits her child's grave every morning.  This is all a complete turnaround from the spoiled child we see in the begininng of the novel.  Malin too has moved up on my list of favorite characters.  I fear for her though, she ignores her husband when he seeks comfort from her, will she suffer a similar fate to Ravenna?

Message Edited by chris227 on 06-15-2009 11:20 AM

[Shadowwolf36]

Each new set of circumstances in the novel exposes us to another facet of each of the characters. In Daniel for example, we have now seen him as a lover, as a husband, as a son, as an in-law, and now, as a father. Is he a different character in his different roles?

How about Meridia in each of her roles?

How are you thoughts about each of the characters shifting? Pilar, Gabriel, Ravenna, and others?

Have you re-evaluated the love relationship between Gabriel and Ravenna?

How would you describe the end of Elias' life? Is this a man who lived a satisfying life at all? What were his biggest flaws and regrets?

How have Eva's tactics changed so far in the novel? Is there a chance we will see a better side of this woman?

---

I think Daniel is really trying to be a good husband and he is a good father. He still has his "connection" to his mother in some respects but he is seeing Meridia's view more and more. Meridia is having a difficult time being a great mother and I think that comes from the fact that both of her experiences with mothering have not been loving and warm. Couple this with the fact that Noah is a difficult baby and that makes for one frustrated mommy. She has however proven her worth as a business woman and has finally turned the page on being a good wife again.

Of course my thoughts on Gabriel have changed in that he is showing albeit too late that he cared about Meridia and her family. We are also starting to realize that although he kept a mistress, he really loved Ravenna most of all. I feel he blamed the icing of his relationship with Ravenna on Meridia and that is why he became so cold to her. He found warmth in Pilar but could never really let Ravenna go.

Elias probably regretted not standing up to Eva until it was too late. I think he was able to do on his deathbed what he did not have the strength to do in life. Love himself and his children.

Eva has become progressively more dangerous and evil and although I hope that the last chapters will bring about a softer Eva, I am beginning to doubt that she has it in her.

[chris227]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

Just a couple of ?'s that I haven't figured out yet:

Does anyone out there have any ideas as to why Leah sees Ravenna wearing black and Rebecca sees her wearing white?  What is it supposed to mean?

Another ?, can we be sure it is Ravenna putting the blue envelopes by Meridia's door even though Meridia assumes that is the case?

---

I also questioned why Leah sees Ravenna in "her stiff black cloak...face veiled, shoulders erect..." and Rebecca sees "the same woman but in a billowing white dress, head bared...".  This is just more of the magic that comes into play in the book.  I have two thoughts, first, that this is just a way of representing the two different sides of Ravenna, the one that "forgets" and locks herself in her kitchen, and the actual caring mother that she should have been and seems to try to be in parts of this section.  The second is that maybe the two women have very different feelings about Ravenna.  Perhaps Leah sees Ravenna as almost evil and harsh while Rebecca sees her as a good mother coming to help her daughter and see her grandson - both true in some ways.

About the blue envelopesleft for Meridia.  they are from Gabriel.  Pilar tells Meridia on page 282 "I delivered them myself (about the gold), and those envelopes too, every time he learned your mother had gone to visit you.  Sprayed her perfume on them himself..."

[Shadowwolf36]

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chris227 wrote:

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

Just a couple of ?'s that I haven't figured out yet:

Does anyone out there have any ideas as to why Leah sees Ravenna wearing black and Rebecca sees her wearing white?  What is it supposed to mean?

Another ?, can we be sure it is Ravenna putting the blue envelopes by Meridia's door even though Meridia assumes that is the case?

---

I also questioned why Leah sees Ravenna in "her stiff black cloak...face veiled, shoulders erect..." and Rebecca sees "the same woman but in a billowing white dress, head bared...".  This is just more of the magic that comes into play in the book.  I have two thoughts, first, that this is just a way of representing the two different sides of Ravenna, the one that "forgets" and locks herself in her kitchen, and the actual caring mother that she should have been and seems to try to be in parts of this section.  The second is that maybe the two women have very different feelings about Ravenna.  Perhaps Leah sees Ravenna as almost evil and harsh while Rebecca sees her as a good mother coming to help her daughter and see her grandson - both true in some ways.

About the blue envelopesleft for Meridia.  they are from Gabriel.  Pilar tells Meridia on page 282 "I delivered them myself (about the gold), and those envelopes too, every time he learned your mother had gone to visit you.  Sprayed her perfume on them himself..."

---

I think you are right about each seeing a different side of Ravenna. I think that all of us in our every day lives show different parts of ourselves to different people. Not only that but certain things we do may elicit different responses from different people. A kind gesture can be seen as just that "a kind gesture" whereas someone else may see it as deceptive, just an act or trying to get something out of it. Perhaps that is what Hannah is....the other side of Meridia's coin.....

[biljounc63]

Theses latest chapters covered a lot of ground. I really was surprised to see the extent of decline both Meridia and Daniel's father went through leading to the death of Elias and the near death state that Gabriel is in at the close of these chapters. It only confirms to me that it is the women in these houses that really control the family. It seems to me that both of the men were not happy at all in how their lives turned out. I really did not expect them to to decline as rapidly as they did.  

Message Edited by biljounc63 on 06-15-2009 12:29 PM

[CathyB]

Amanda-Louise:

  I think the person that Elias was referring to was Permony. I am hoping

that he did not mean Eva.

cathyB

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Amanda-Louise wrote:

Chapter Twenty - Eight

I'm interested to read how Eva will wear widowhood?  And.....Save who?????  More questions!!!

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Okay - one quarter left to go and still so much unanswered!!!

---

 

[Sassy398]

The relationship betwen Gabriel and Ravenna is an up and down affair...one minute

 you feel they have hope and then in the next breath it's like they both hit a brick wall...

so therefore it's sometimes difficult in which direction those two are heading.

[emmagrace]

I do see Daniel as being a different character in each of his roles. He is becoming stronger in his role of Meridia's husband. He is a good father. He still has trouble getting along with his in-laws and I do not see this changing as of yet. I would like to see him stand up to his mother more.

Meridia is an excellent mother and wife. She tries so hard to make her little family work as Eva works to tear it down. Meridia continues to get stronger in each of her roles as I read through the book.

I am really starting to respect Ravenna. She is coming through as a mother and a grandmother. I am still not so sure about Gabriel. I feel so sorry for Elias. Eva is driving him mad, but you can see that he loves his grandson. I still can not stand Eva and her stinking bees. I want to throttle her so bad!

Ravenna and Gabriel used to love each other. Infidelity has torn them apart. I still feel like there is some sort of love/respect between them though, it is hidden under the hurt and anger.

I believe that Elias was once a happy man. He died a sad and lonely person. He had to regret not protecting his children and himself from evil Eva.

Eva gets more hateful as we continue this story. I do not see her changing anytime soon.