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Family
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11-03-2008 11:57 AM
In what ways are the Litvinoffs a traditional family? In what ways are they nontraditional?
How does the idea of a "tribe," introduced by Audrey at Joel's memorial service, reflect the state of the modern family, for better and for worse?
Re: Family
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11-05-2008 04:56 PM
Re: Family
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11-05-2008 10:20 PM
You Know, this is so strange, but I realize that years ago when I watched Leave it to Beaver show,Father knows best and some of the other perfect family shows on TV, that I really felt bad for me and my children. I really sometimes thought that I was disavantaged for not having a family life like theirs. You can for a day, you can for awhile, but there is no perfect family or life with a family is never happy go lucky all the time. So they are entertaining yes, those perfect family shows but not about real life.
cjt0411 wrote:
The thing that struck me with this book is that the Litvinoffs are the perfect example of the dysfunctional family. The mother was overly critical and demanding and the children all experienced psychological disorders because of it. This is also a depiction of the typical family as well. Not every family is perfect and every family has issues. Real world families resemble nothing like the "Leave it to Beaver" type but more like the Litvinoffs. Granted, the Litvinoff family may be a bit more on the extreme end of things.
Re: Family
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11-06-2008 10:39 AM
I totally agree that this is a dysfunctional family. What's with the coldness that pervades through this group of people? They seem to not care about each other at all. Each leads their own life and they avoid each other's feelings like the plague.
Perhaps it is the fault of Audrey, who seems to have distanced herself from getting emotionally involved with her own children. All her energy seems to be spent on keeping Joel happy. They seem to be the classic example of people who shouldn't have children.
Re: Family
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11-06-2008 01:03 PM
KxBurns wrote:
How does the idea of a "tribe," introduced by Audrey at Joel's memorial service, reflect the state of the modern family, for better and for worse?
I think many modern families have become more insular units consisting of the parents and those childrten living at home with them. Bacause of job trends, etc. many people often do not have extended family or any relatives nearby. The idea of the "tribe" would really take us back to the days when all family members, elderly and young lived under the same roof or in the same vicinity. They were able to help and support each other and each member had an important role in the family. One difference today however might be that you could have the "tribe" concept of supporting and communicating with each other but you might not be physically living in the same area. Audrey may have introduced the "tribe" idea to protect Joel's reputation and thus give her new life after his deatha purpose. So she did it for selfish, or personal survival reasons. But the concept could also be beneficial to families today.
Librarian
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11-06-2008 09:37 PM
Re: Family
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11-10-2008 09:13 AM
KxBurns wrote:
What's missing in this picture is cooperation; instead, we see competition for Lenny's affection taking place among Susan and Audrey and resentment and jealousy between Audrey and Jean. Except I wonder if Susan and Jean are even active participants in the battles Audrey wages?...
I think it's a battle Audrey fights alone. Susan may have the tiniest territoriality about Lenny, but Jean not at all -- I thought her generosity in taking Lenny in, and even her ability to maintain a friendship with Audrey at all, were remakable.
The "tribe" concept brought to my mind Hilary Clinton's "village," as in her book It Takes a Village.
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11-10-2008 08:50 PM
detailmuse wrote:
I think it's a battle Audrey fights alone. Susan may have the tiniest territoriality about Lenny, but Jean not at all -- I thought her generosity in taking Lenny in, and even her ability to maintain a friendship with Audrey at all, were remakable.
The "tribe" concept brought to my mind Hilary Clinton's "village," as in her book It Takes a Village.
True! Audrey even goes head-to-head with Dave, Lenny's sponsor.
This may be too generous, but perhaps to Audrey's mind, her ranting and railing against Rosa's interest in Orthodox Judaism is a similar battle? Maybe she just doesn't want to lose her daughter to a way of life that she herself cannot fathom being a part of?
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11-11-2008 08:42 AM
KxBurns wrote:True! Audrey even goes head-to-head with Dave, Lenny's sponsor.
I don't think there's even one person Audrey doesn't rail against. As much as I dislike Mike, I agree with what he said on p208 about Audrey picking a fight: "If she doesn't want an argument, she shouldn't bring it up." Did Audrey ever just respond? -- in my mind, she was aggressively argumentative -- always the initiator.
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11-14-2008 02:57 PM
"Family" seems to be that central resting spot which the Litvinoffs return to after journeying out into their individual lives. Remembering that we are picking this story up after a 40 year "introduction" between Audrey and Joel, we are left to picture the raising of the children, the marital conflicts, and all other things "family" on our own. It seems to me, like any other family, the characters return with all their known flaws and are somehow awkwardly comfortable in the insulation of each other.
Kind of like...Sunday mornings at home when you lounge in your pajamas and haven't yet combed your hair or cleaned up the kitchen. It's comfortable...until the doorbell rings unexpectedly.
No expectations..No disappointments
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11-14-2008 05:33 PM
I see what you mean, Sylvia -- perhaps they are awful to each other because they can be? ![]()
It might not be the best way to treat your loved ones, but maybe there's something to be said for the total lack of pretense among them. Except that I don't think Karla is just being herself -- she, for sure, is presenting herself in the way she thinks has been prescribed for her.
Re: Family
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11-14-2008 05:44 PM
KxBurns wrote:
What constitutes family in The Believers and what function does family serve?
In what ways are the Litvinoffs a traditional family? In what ways are they nontraditional?
How does the idea of a "tribe," introduced by Audrey at Joel's memorial service, reflect the state of the modern family, for better and for worse?
Re: Family
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11-14-2008 09:05 PM
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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11-14-2008 09:07 PM
I think many modern families have become more insular units consisting of the parents and those childrten living at home with them.
Haven't I read elsewhere that fewer than half of all children are now being raised in "standard" nuclear families -- father, mother, their natural children?
I think, therefore I drive people nuts.
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11-16-2008 01:54 PM
Re: Family
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11-18-2008 02:06 AM
In what ways are the Litvinoffs a traditional family? In what ways are they nontraditional?
The fact that they got married labels them "traditional" and then they chose to live in a dwelling by themselves as a nuclear unit is very contemporary/western traditional. The way they raised their children, or didn't -- depending upon your particular opinion of their parenting skills or lack thereof -- would be a component of their nontraditional lifestyle. They exposed their children to many ideas and elements, situations in life, that a more traditional parent would not. The family situation was an interesting mix, but it is very clear that the family as it functioned was reflective of Joel and Audrey's selfish, self-centered characters. In Audrey's case, I'll add self-serving, which I don't think applies to Joel.
What constitutes family in The Believers and what function does family serve?
For most of the book, I think what constitues family in The Believers is the contemporary nuclear family unit. For all their leftist leanings, they were "just like everyone else" for those of us who grew up in the west and really not so special at all. Thinking about what function the family served for itself, I really can't see that it did much to serve any of them, except maybe for Audrey. She needed them as part of her identity.
How does the idea of a "tribe," introduced by Audrey at Joel's memorial service, reflect the state of the modern family, for better and for worse?
For better or for worse, I think the modern family, in the west, has become somewhat of a free-for-all. And with this blending and shaking and stiring (personal mobility, divorce, remarriage, step-parents, step-children, step-siblings, half-siblings, the associated relatives and ex-relatives that come with the package--and sometimes -- as in The Believers -- a significant love liaison, and also non-traditional couples raising children), the idea of a "tribe" is necessary, I think, to hold it all together. We have had to redefine ourselves and create liaisons to meet our emotional needs and the emotional needs of our children. We created a new definition of family and belonging. I think we, globally in our societies, began to feel very "lonely" -- an aloneness that we, as a species are not programmed for yet by evolution -- and maybe even a little off-balance in our nuclear units and have recreated the extended family of the past but defined it in a 21st century way that fits the realities of our societies as they exist today. As for the "tribe" that Audrey touts at Joel's funeral, it's a farce. She is merely saving face and making a play to grab control. There was no sincerety in it and if the book were to continue, I would expect the truth would find its way into the light and her house of cards would topple at some point. Truth does not stay undiscovered forever.
Re: Family
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11-18-2008 03:54 PM
detailmuse wrote:
KxBurns wrote:
...Except I wonder if Susan and Jean are even active participants in the battles Audrey wages?...I think it's a battle Audrey fights alone. Susan may have the tiniest territoriality about Lenny, but Jean not at all -- I thought her generosity in taking Lenny in, and even her ability to maintain a friendship with Audrey at all, were remakable.
The "tribe" concept brought to my mind Hilary Clinton's "village," as in her book It Takes a Village.
I wholeheartedly agree with what detailmouse is saying here. My first thought was the Hillary Clinton version of "village". You hit the nail on the head, I think in the statement that Audrey fights these battles alone. It seems that much of her issues are based on her own perceptions, rather than what is actually happening around her. The irony of these battles is the fact that she seems to have been in search of a common bond with her husband relating to fighting the "good fight". Instead, she has managed to create her battles that really accomplish little other than creating family angst. It's almost as if she focuses on the battle, rather than its cause/meaning. I mean, it's a fight for the sake of fighting, rather than fighting to solve an issue. Does this make any sense at all?
"I still find each day too short for all the thoughts I want to think, all the walks I want to take, all the books I want to read, and all the friends I want to see. " --John Burroughs
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11-18-2008 08:24 PM
blkeyesuzi wrote:
It seems that much of [Audrey's] issues are based on her own perceptions, rather than what is actually happening around her. The irony of these battles is the fact that she seems to have been in search of a common bond with her husband relating to fighting the "good fight". Instead, she has managed to create her battles that really accomplish little other than creating family angst. It's almost as if she focuses on the battle, rather than its cause/meaning. I mean, it's a fight for the sake of fighting, rather than fighting to solve an issue. Does this make any sense at all?
This really fits. Joel fights serious matters of important consequence, whereas Audrey's fights are trivial, trumped up, even imagined. Is it in competition to Joel? -- as a way to stay noticed? It takes a lot of effort, she must be exhausted. I think I finally feel a stir of sympathy for Audrey!