Magic, Religion, and Science

[Deltadawn]

Magic, religion & science are all interrelated in Deliverance's world. Science was not understood at the time, so anything that occurred in the natural world was attributed to religion or magic. While those around her viewed these things with superstition, fear & blame, Deliverance viewed them in a more holistic way and attempted to learn about them.

In Connie's world science, magic & religion are not related at all.

The witchcraft we find in this novel seems to consist mostly of learning to use the healing powers of various herbs along with special prayers & incantations to heal. There are definitely supernatural qualities to it, as well.

Literally, Deliverance's accusers are only partially right about her. She does practice "witchcraft" in that she creates "potions" and recites incantations to effectively heal others. However, they are not right about her because they believe that she has a "witches teat" and that she uses her "powers" for evil purposes, which she does not.

There are so many spells I would be interested in looking up if I found a book of spells and recipes.....oh the possibilities!

[jholcomb]

This is a bit off-subject, but for some reason, I had trouble accepting the witchcraft in the book. I've enjoyed other books with a supernatural element, but somehow Connie's abilities didn't invite suspension of disbelief--maybe because the novel was in other ways so prosaic. Did anyone else find it a little hollow?

[Tarri]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

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 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

[PiperMurphy]

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Tarri wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

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 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

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Possibly they felt that the attention they received gave them power, something that would not normally experience. Maybe they wanted to see how far they could go, but I agree that once they started they didn't dare stop.

[DSaff]

Very true. Plus, I think there were quite a few "followers" in that group who feared what their "leader" would do to them if they were honest. True mob mentality. I'm really not sure how any of them could live with themselves or sleep at night.

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PiperMurphy wrote:

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Tarri wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

---

 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

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Possibly they felt that the attention they received gave them power, something that would not normally experience. Maybe they wanted to see how far they could go, but I agree that once they started they didn't dare stop.

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[ponie]

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DSaff wrote:

Very true. Plus, I think there were quite a few "followers" in that group who feared what their "leader" would do to them if they were honest. True mob mentality. I'm really not sure how any of them could live with themselves or sleep at night.

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PiperMurphy wrote:

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Tarri wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

---

 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

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Possibly they felt that the attention they received gave them power, something that would not normally experience. Maybe they wanted to see how far they could go, but I agree that once they started they didn't dare stop.

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Oh my this is long....but I agree.  I think the leader (Abigail) was mentally ill and very powerful...and for the girls/followers...once they "put their hand to the plow" there was no turning back.  What were the young boys doing at this time?

[jholcomb]

I'm thinking the boys were busier. It was an agrarian society, so they probably spent a lot of time outside doing farmwork. Probably had both less temptation and less time to make things up!

[debbook]

I had a little bit of a problem with the blue light of the magic. I think it would have been better without a description, left up to the reader's imagination. It didn't fit with the rest of the book. It should have been alluded to as this wasn't a fantasy novel.

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[debbook]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

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But then how would you describe a witch. It has a negative connotation but modern withcraft as that of the past is just an understanding of nature and using the force of nature through herbs and belief that "god" is in everything. It is not that much different than prayer groups who believe that the power of praying together can heal someone. Belief is a huge part of any religion, whether one is "practicing" or is the "recipient" of a spell or prayer

[libralady]

I agree that Deliverance was a healer rather than a witch.  It is amazing to me that the same women who came to her(mostly in secret) for her help were quick to condemn her in front of the rest of the town. I also have a problem with how willing the town members were to believe the stories of the young girls.  It was my understanding that in those times, children were seen and not heard. 

There were few, if any, scientific explanations for things out of the ordinary.  Because of this, the people of Deliverance's time needed to place the blame somewhere.  If it was something good that happened, they could credit religion.  But if it was bad, it could not be religion and that is when they went on their "witch hunts". 

[Zeal]

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Tarri wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

---

 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

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I think that sometimes when things begin to snowball, the guilty party has a problem separating fantasy from reality.  The stories and accusations take on an entity of their own.  Yes, I also believe that fear had a lot to do with it in the beginning, but it turned into so much more.

[thewanderingjew]

debbook wrote: ...edited by twj
But then how would you describe a witch. It has a negative connotation but modern withcraft as that of the past is just an understanding of nature and using the force of nature through herbs and belief that "god" is in everything. It is not that much different than prayer groups who believe that the power of praying together can heal someone. Belief is a huge part of any religion, whether one is "practicing" or is the "recipient" of a spell or prayer

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twj wrote:

Hmmm, that is a really good question and it is not easy for me to answer. When I first think about witches, I do tend to think of them as evil, the stuff of Halloween costumes, but then, maybe I also believe that a witch uses supernatural powers, that can be used for good or evil, depending on what use he/she makes of them, in addition to the use of the forces of nature and things found in the natural world. While I think a witch is capable of good and evil, I don't think Connie is capable of evil.
I picture her as in the laying on of hands which coincides with the religious aspect you alluded to in your query. In the book, her power seems to come from her hands, i.e. the blue light. I think of her more as laying on her hands to cure someone, using her own inner strength and gift to heal, drawing on her own inner energy. She might also use herbs and roots found in nature, but the healing gift comes from within her very being. She cured the spider plant with her own energy.

Actually, I had a thought. Perhaps she will do just that with Sam. Maybe since she felt she learned about him through the touch of her hands, she can also help him through her hands, using her power and her energy to bring him back to health, drawing out the sickness in him. I  think Connie may be the real life key or conduit to the mythical philosopher's stone.

[debbook]

I think the point of the book and how it differs from other books about the Salem Witch Trials is that those women were most likely healers or some were eccentrics, easy to blame for things gone wrong. But Deliverance actaually is a witch. Where do you think Connie gets her powers from? It's not just herbal healing, there is actual magic.

[thewanderingjew]

I think Connie's powers come from within herself. I don't attribute it to magic, just to a gift she has, albeit a supernatural one. I think she could probably do things without spells but I haven't read the whole book so I may be barking up the wrong tree, here.

In the recesses of my mind, I believe that we all have untapped power to do a lot more than we know. Some people are able to get in touch with themselves and some aren't. Clairvoyants and psychics have a special gift too. I don't think they use magic do you? Or, do you not believe in clairvoyance?

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debbook wrote:
I think the point of the book and how it differs from other books about the Salem Witch Trials is that those women were most likely healers or some were eccentrics, easy to blame for things gone wrong. But Deliverance actually is a witch. Where do you think Connie gets her powers from? It's not just herbal healing, there is actual magic.

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[ponie]

One of Rachel's questions that started this thread was:

On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

Well, I was at my local B&N tonight and found a boxed deck of 50 Spells and Charms...

Synopsis

This deck contains 50 charms and spells to help you get the best out of life. Inspired by the global, sympathetic and life-enhancing magic practiced by wise women and men for centuries it reveals formulas for:

• Bewitching your lover

• Ensuring the success of an upcoming journey

• Keeping peace between family members

• Losing weight

• Avoiding restless nights

• Increasing fertility

• Ridding your home of bad spirits

• Mending a broken heart

• Revealing the truth about your relationship

• Easing aches and pains

• Improving your spiritual and physical energy

...and much more!

hmmmmm....short of Bewitching My Lover (!) these are things I pray for and about...

[TRJ4SQ]

1. How are magic, religion, and science related in the world of Deliverance Dane?

In Deliverance's day, the three were approached with fear due to lack of understanding. They were also used as weapons in power ploys. All were separate with science and magic being subject to accusations of heresy. Religion reigned supreme.

2. How is Deliverance's thinking about these things different from those around her?

Deliverance does not approach with fear but with understanding. She sees that all are intertwined as the work of God. She isn't interested in power but only in performing acts of grace in good faith.

3. How are science, magic, and religion related in Connie's world?

It's funny, but we know very little (if anything) about Connie's faith. In her world, science, magic and religion are intertwined in synchronistic patterns. Once cannot exist without the other as they are too deeply woven into the fabric of her universe. This is her ancestral legacy and is the substance of who she is.

4. On page 284, Chilton says that science has only the ability to doubt. What would a "faithful" science be?

This can be a very deep discussion so I'll take the easy way out for now.

To quote Albert Einstein: "Even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, there are strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies ... science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind ... a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist."

In an article entitled Science and Religion published in Nature Magazine (Nov. 1940), he argued that conflicts between science and religion "have all sprung from fatal errors."

He was really into this subject and it makes for great further reading on the subject.

5. How would you describe the "witchcraft" we find in this novel?

It isn't really witchcraft but more a supernatural talent stemming only from the providence of God and nothing evil at all.

6. Are Deliverance's accusers right about her? Why or why not?

We all know the accusers were deluded souls. Even though they preached piety they offered little compassion and even less understanding. Had they been more of the faith, they would have understood her and seen her ability to do good as a gift from God. The kind of witchcraft they are accusing her of is malice ridden and dwells in the darkness.

7. On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

I wouldn't need any spells because I believe in the providence of God. I have only but to ask and He will work all the magic I need.

 

Message Edited by TRJ4SQ on 04-16-2009 06:06 AM

[TRJ4SQ]

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Tarri wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

twj

---

 I agree with your whole post, but found this very interesting and would like to hear more opinions. 

People get caught up in things and can't find ways to extricate themselves.  I think that one of the girls probably made an accusation and then liked the attention they received.  Then they found that it snowballed out of their control.  

When it was found that these women were not witches, and that they have been executed (murdered, in my opinion) these young girls had to stick to their stories and back then they could blame the devil and get away with not being responsible.  

---

I agree that people sometimes get caught up in things but there is always a way out. They could have just stopped playing their deadly game or confessed that it was all a lie and took their lumps.

Ann Putnam was the only one of the girls to make a public apology. She was also the most active accuser. Perhaps justice was served her as she died a solitary soul.

[TRJ4SQ]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I totally agree with you about Petford and I admire your fervency on these particular points. Such unnecessary tragedy always evokes intense emotion in myself as well.

I believe the power machine was also in motion here. The judges held the balance of life and death for each of accused in the palms of their sweaty, over excited hands. It made them feel important in their day. Perhaps they also thought it good for future political position. "Hi, remember me, you should elect me because I'm the guy that rid your town of all of those nasty witches and therefore eased your suffering and ensured your safety."

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

I think boredom was the initial reason for this terrible farce and I think it also perpetuated it. It gave the townsfolk excitement in their ordinary lives. It was a feast for gossip. The excitement also carried into the fear factor. They probably all experienced a massive adrenaline rush much like the one people get by watching scary horror movies. There is scientific proof that people can become adrenaline junkies. I'm sure it had a much stronger effect in the days where everything was so mundane and adrenaline was used very little.

There were also those of the townsfolk who relished the limelight and enjoyed their little bids for power. Remember how Goody Oliver enjoyed the effect of her testimony? She had a power rush of self-importance and realized that she could awe with her accusations. It was her ticket to respect in the community even if it was fueled by the fear of others. 

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

I could not say that the girls (and their families) went unpunished. I believe in God's retribution and that no ill deed goes unaware or unpunished. Imagine the internal hell they might have suffered knowing that they were the cause of so many innocent deaths and the shame that their families faced in the eyes of others. Even today, we look upon these girls with distaste and derision.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

Others attempt to shed blame for their misdeeds and their own ineffectualness. Fingerpointing to divert attention from the fly under the microscope. Weak souls who cannot take responsibility and are at a loss on how to make things right.

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[TRJ4SQ]

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ponie wrote:

One of Rachel's questions that started this thread was:

On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

Well, I was at my local B&N tonight and found a boxed deck of 50 Spells and Charms...

Synopsis

This deck contains 50 charms and spells to help you get the best out of life. Inspired by the global, sympathetic and life-enhancing magic practiced by wise women and men for centuries it reveals formulas for:

• Bewitching your lover

• Ensuring the success of an upcoming journey

• Keeping peace between family members

• Losing weight

• Avoiding restless nights

• Increasing fertility

• Ridding your home of bad spirits

• Mending a broken heart

• Revealing the truth about your relationship

• Easing aches and pains

• Improving your spiritual and physical energy

...and much more!

hmmmmm....short of Bewitching My Lover (!) these are things I pray for and about...

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HAHAHAHA!!! Great Job Ponie!

(I kind of like the idea of bewitching my lover...thought hopefully I won't have to do it through magik!

Message Edited by TRJ4SQ on 04-16-2009 07:15 AM

[TRJ4SQ]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

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ponie wrote:

One of Rachel's questions that started this thread was:

On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

Well, I was at my local B&N tonight and found a boxed deck of 50 Spells and Charms...

Synopsis

This deck contains 50 charms and spells to help you get the best out of life. Inspired by the global, sympathetic and life-enhancing magic practiced by wise women and men for centuries it reveals formulas for:

• Bewitching your lover

• Ensuring the success of an upcoming journey

• Keeping peace between family members

• Losing weight

• Avoiding restless nights

• Increasing fertility

• Ridding your home of bad spirits

• Mending a broken heart

• Revealing the truth about your relationship

• Easing aches and pains

• Improving your spiritual and physical energy

...and much more!

hmmmmm....short of Bewitching My Lover (!) these are things I pray for and about...

---

HAHAHAHA!!! Great Job Ponie!

(I kind of like the idea of bewitching my lover...thought hopefully I won't have to do it through magik )

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Just to satisfy my insecurity...I asked him & he said he was bewitched. Lucky for him he came up with the right answer!