Magic, Religion, and Science

[fordmg]

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ponie wrote:

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pode wrote:

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jholcomb wrote:

This is a bit off-subject, but for some reason, I had trouble accepting the witchcraft in the book. I've enjoyed other books with a supernatural element, but somehow Connie's abilities didn't invite suspension of disbelief--maybe because the novel was in other ways so prosaic. Did anyone else find it a little hollow?

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I agree.  I've read other books that include magic, supernatural elements, dreamy stuff and they were often interesting and engaging.  Connie never rang true for me. 

I think parts of the book were meaningful in that the topics included in the book invited discussion.  The readers had great ideas and the discussion has been good but I think, NOT, because of the Connie, Chilton, Sam, etc. characters.  The history from Salem did elicit interest and thoughtful insights.

As I've said before, this was a juicy topic.  I wish the author had done a better job of developing the story.  Magic, religion and science are very current subjects.  Can we trust the scientists?  How far should religion be allowed to influence our laws?  How much of the "magic" of early years is the "science (medicine)" of today?  What "magic" is out here today? 

Seems to me that Connie never really thought much about anything, just reacted to what was going on around her.

Pode

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Pode, as usual you ask great questions, especially here about magic, religion, and science.  The answers are often so damagingly dividing.  There seems to be no room for a "marriage" of science and religion and faith and magic...not even a willingness to reasonably talk about the possibility or (even) just a nice "dating" situation/relationship where one listens and learns of the other as the other listens and learns as well without demand and defense and agenda and judgement.  May those of us who stand rigid with our eyes tightly shut and our fingers in our ears shouting "lalalalalalalala I'm not listening" stop it right this minute!!!  Listening does not mean you agree or even condone the others beliefs or actions.  Listening means tho I may certainly take issue with what you say or do, I will honor who you are and respect our shared humanity and endeavor to have a decent interaction with you.

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.  Who wants to join me???

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Ponie, I totally agree with you.  We need a little more tolerance in this world.

MG

[ponie]

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pode wrote:

Just of added interest.....there's an article this morning on MSN Slate, WHY THE WICKED WITCH ISN'T DEAD. THE TIMELESS ALLURE OF WITCH HUNTING.    It discussed women in the world today who are hunted, tortured and discarded. 

http://www.slate.com/id/2216429/?gt1=38001

Pode

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Frightening.  Alarming.  Tragic.  Sad.   Heartbreaking.  WRONG.

I believe there is evil, evil in this world.  However all too often one becomes as evil as the evil they fear, seek to address, call out, get rid of, by the way they go about it.  Evidences the depravity of man. 

[ponie]

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ponie wrote:

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pode wrote:

Just of added interest.....there's an article this morning on MSN Slate, WHY THE WICKED WITCH ISN'T DEAD. THE TIMELESS ALLURE OF WITCH HUNTING.    It discussed women in the world today who are hunted, tortured and discarded. 

http://www.slate.com/id/2216429/?gt1=38001

Pode

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Frightening.  Alarming.  Tragic.  Sad.   Heartbreaking.  WRONG.

I believe there is evil, evil in this world.  However all too often one becomes as evil as the evil they fear, seek to address, call out, get rid of, by the way they go about it.  Evidences the depravity of man. 

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man's inhumanity to man....

This phrase, which is always used with a sense of regret, was coined by Robert Burns and used in his poem From Man was made to Mourn: A Dirge, 1785:

'Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And Man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!

[thewanderingjew]

Thanks for the interesting link.

twj

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edited by twj...TRJ4SQ wrote:

...I have been sharing a few aspects of the book relating to natural healers being accused of witchcraft with a dear friend . He is often a partner in philosophical discussions of "science, religion and magic" and sent me this video on the possibility of channeling Chi (universal energy or energy flow) or Qi (also known as Qigong) for the art of natural healing.

What I found most interesting was that the "patients" sometimes seemed to be in "fits". The Chi master also tells that his abilities come from daily meditation and secret practices passed down through generations of ancients. Since it's an internet video and I don't know the true source, you can take it with or without a grain of salt as you prefer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAAB0dbc3Es&feature=related

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Message Edited by thewanderingjew on 04-21-2009 11:21 AM

[thewanderingjew]

Thanks for that interesting article. Superstition, fear and ignorance are very dangerous, especially when coupled with the need for a scapegoat to blame everything on!

twj

pode wrote: edited by twj...

...Just of added interest.....there's an article this morning on MSN Slate, WHY THE WICKED WITCH ISN'T DEAD. THE TIMELESS ALLURE OF WITCH HUNTING.    It discussed women in the world today who are hunted, tortured and discarded. 

http://www.slate.com/id/2216429/?gt1=38001

Pode

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[debbook]

You might like The Heretic's Daughter better.

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thewanderingjew wrote:

Like others, I was disappointed in the ending of the book. It really took place in the last 20 or so pages and sort of just came upon the reader without enough warning or preparation.  It also culminated too quickly for me, suddenly launching into make-believe with spells and incantations. Prior to the last few pages, I believed that Connie was using a G-d given talent rather than the pure fantasy of magic and spells. Because it was reduced to that, it wasn't that believable for me any longer.

In my opinion, the book hadn't been set up for that kind of suspension of reality, since the women charged were really innocent of witchcraft, historically. I understand now, that Deliverance was meant to be a true witch, in a long line of witches, of which Connie is the last of the line, so far. Yet, I never got that impression as I read. I thought she was a natural healer like other "witches" in other cultures where herbs and potions and incantations are used, sometimes working and sometimes not but definitely part of a culture in which cures were handed down from generation to generation.

Also, so many things were left unexplained at the end. How could she have put her hands directly into the fire and not come out more damaged? If she really was magical, I think she would have come out of the fire unscathed or she would have healed herself. Some mention was made of an herb bubbling out of the wounds in her hands which made me think of the extraordinary pain she was experiencing and yet she still used her hands to work her spells. How could she still use her hands after that experience? She mentions enduring it so we know she didn't heal them. I can't even imagine standing up after thrusting my hand into a hot fire!
In addition, how does she explain Chilton's presence in her home, incapacitated, suffering fits? How did she explain her injuries to the police whom I think she must have called to have Chilton removed or hospitalized? Otherwise, what did she do about him? I don't recall any explanations. There were so many unanswered questions that left me hanging but not necessarily the kinds of questions that would make me want to read the next book of a sequel.

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[Thayer]

To me, the term witch is just a label. Unfortunately in the late 1600s Salem, it was a very damaging, often deadly one. To the very staunch Puritans, "healing," in any form was left pretty much to God alone. Even today, there are religions that disallow seeking medical attention for even critically ill individuals. In my view, this seems unfathomable, but some are very literal in their interpretation of religious convictions.

I was taken by Sam's quote (p. 142) "I'm always intrigued by the different ways people decide what to believe." This is interesting to me as well. My many visits to New Orleans have taken me into various voodoo shops in the French Quarter, which I was reminded of as Connie visited the witchcraft shop in the book. While most of these have become quite touristy, it never fails to fascinate me that a past-or perhaps even present-culture, was very active in this (to me) foreign belief.

It just makes you realize how vast and diverse the world really is, and how fortunate we are to live in a time and place, so unlike Deliverance, where it is our right to enjoy these priveliges. Hopefully, we can all be  accepting and tolerant of those differences we find in others.

[thewanderingjew]

thanks for the suggestion. my dil actually read it and said she would pass it on to me when i return up north for the summer.

twj

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debbook wrote:
You might like The Heretic's Daughter better.

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[Melissa_W Moderator]

Chilton wouldn't know the scientific method if it fell on him; a faithful science is one that involves thorough planning, repetition, understanding, objectivity, humility, and the grace to accept that sometimes you fail before you succeed (there are definitely some people out there who don't or won't figure that out).  He also doesn't know anything about chemistry, a science that was founded through the work of alchemists (Newton and Boyle), so perhaps he ought to have taken Chem101 before haring off to try and find the philosopher's stone (Liz's Latin course wouldn't have been a bad idea either). 

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rkubie wrote:

On page 284, Chilton says that science has only the ability to doubt. What would a "faithful" science be?

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Just for fun, while I was reading the interlude when Mercy comes to visit her mother at the jail I looked up the history of lead poisoning (or saturnism as referred to in the book).  The Wikipeida page has a very good history; it was recognized by the Romans around 200 BC but after the time of Julius Ceasar it appears that the information disappeared into the Dark Ages to resurface in the seventeenth century.  Google Books also has a link to a medical textbook published in 1881 - this a page describing lead poisoning so it's interesting to see how the disease was described before the advent of twentieth-century medicine. 

[drbjaded]

Magic, science and religion are considered taboo subjects.  Things that were not understood and deemed unexplainable were thought to be associated with evil and magic.  Religion is important in regards to being VERY religious.  I think it was almost bordering on hypocrit.  It just seemed easy to blame someone for something else by pointing the finger and labeling them a witch or an evil person.  Deliverance's thinking is different in that she has faith that God will come and heal the person of their affliction.  She doesn't believe it's an unknown entity that cures the individual but she believes there is a divine hand behind her spells. 

In Connie's world, science, magic and religion are matters that can be talked about freely.  There is no fear that your belief in something will get you into trouble.  There's no scapegoat or finger pointing in Connie's world.  Things that are unexplainable are tried to be explained but they are no longer considered to be evil.  Connie feels that these people who used magic were persecuted and used as profit. 

The witchcraft in this novel is relatively mild.  It's really used for medicinal purposes and not used for evil doings.  It's used to cure people from disease.  It's not used for financial gain.

Deliverance's accusers are not about her.  She was not practicing witchcraft to kill an innocent child.  She was trying to cure this little girl.  Her practice was not understood by the townspeople and the accusations were made by a grieving family wanting to avenge their daughter's death.  Deliverance did not cause anyone to die.

I'm probably still a little weary about using spells.  It still has the "unknown" factor and I'm not sure I'd want to mess with something I don't know about.  I'd leave the casting of spells to the professionals. 

[thewanderingjew]

I think you have to try and place yourself in that historic time frame. Fear and superstition were huge parts of people's lives. Science was largely in its infant stage. Frightened people do foolish things. When people can't find explanations for what causes their pain, they search for someone to blame so someone can pay for their hurt. It has happened throughout history. The unknown frightens people. Even today, with the flu scare, some are looking to find someone or something to blame.

twj

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drbjaded wrote:

Magic, science and religion are considered taboo subjects.  Things that were not understood and deemed unexplainable were thought to be associated with evil and magic.  Religion is important in regards to being VERY religious.  I think it was almost bordering on hypocrit.  It just seemed easy to blame someone for something else by pointing the finger and labeling them a witch or an evil person.  Deliverance's thinking is different in that she has faith that God will come and heal the person of their affliction.  She doesn't believe it's an unknown entity that cures the individual but she believes there is a divine hand behind her spells. 

In Connie's world, science, magic and religion are matters that can be talked about freely.  There is no fear that your belief in something will get you into trouble.  There's no scapegoat or finger pointing in Connie's world.  Things that are unexplainable are tried to be explained but they are no longer considered to be evil.  Connie feels that these people who used magic were persecuted and used as profit. 

The witchcraft in this novel is relatively mild.  It's really used for medicinal purposes and not used for evil doings.  It's used to cure people from disease.  It's not used for financial gain.

Deliverance's accusers are not about her.  She was not practicing witchcraft to kill an innocent child.  She was trying to cure this little girl.  Her practice was not understood by the townspeople and the accusations were made by a grieving family wanting to avenge their daughter's death.  Deliverance did not cause anyone to die.

I'm probably still a little weary about using spells.  It still has the "unknown" factor and I'm not sure I'd want to mess with something I don't know about.  I'd leave the casting of spells to the professionals. 

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[jennaml]

I would agree with most everyone about the differences among science and religion in the book.  In general, I think this follows the trend that has been seen throughout time- science has become more distanced(to some extent) from religion that it used to be, I feel.  Another interesting question would be how spirituality and religion are different in various time periods.  Nonetheless, I would like to think that in modern times, science has become a separate entity or topic from religion. However, in some cases, for some people, this is not so true (such as controversy around evolution, or maybe even global warming).

[mapleann]

Chilton says that science only has the ability to doubt. Well, not necessarily, but I do see some truth to the statement. It all depends on what we classify as "science." Science is often curiosity and experimenting in the most fundamental sense. Children are fantastic scientist and they do so in wonderment and exploration of possibilities. When science becomes "official" then yes, it is of doubt. We start with a hypotheses, and then we test to see if we can disprove it...in essence, doubt. Scientific method=doubt, the attempt to disprove. Hope is thinking that all attempts to disprove will fail, but even then doubt plays a part.