Magic, Religion, and Science [ Edited ]

[Rachel-K]

How are magic, religion, and science related in the world of Deliverance Dane? How is Deliverance's thinking about these things different from those around her?

How are science, magic, and religion related in Connie's world?

On page 284, Chilton says that science has only the ability to doubt. What would a "faithful" science be?

How would you describe the "witchcraft" we find in this novel?

Are Deliverance's accusers right about her? Why or why not?

On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

Message Edited by rkubie on 04-14-2009 01:45 AM

Message Edited by rkubie on 04-14-2009 01:58 AM

[CathyB]

In the world of Deliverance, the unknown is considered 'magic'. Anything magical is the result of outside influence - not from God but from a demon of some sorts. The people in Salem took religion to an extreme and feared anything they could not explain through their religious beliefs - i.e. only the sinners were punished for their misdeeds - what could a child have done to deserve a strange illness or even death itself. They also feared anyone outside of ministers, law officers and doctors to fix things - essentially the educated. Deliverance is highly perceptive, she can size up  a situation and act accordingly. She believes that 'magic', science and religion are all interconnected.

In Connie's world, science and religion are not connected. Science has even been used to validate/disprove long held religious beliefs. Magic is seen by most as something fantastical and not real.

In this novel, witchcraft was practiced as a form of medicine and used to heal people.

I believe that Deliverances accusers were correct - she did practice witchcraft - especially after seeing the blue light; however, their understanding of witchcraft is incorrect. She was able to use herbs, etc.. to heal an individual.

Not sure I would look up any spell for myself if I found a book of spells.

CathyB

[dhaupt]

In the world of Deliverance religion and science are one in the same, the people of that time were so narrow minded to think that God or their religion could answer all the questions and those who chose to believe anything different were persecuted. Deliverance on the other hand knows that God, religion, science and magic are all connected. She believes that her belief in God is what gives her the right and ability to practice her magic.

The witchcraft in this novel is based on doing good to benefit from it but not in a monetary way just by doing the right thing. It's also the vernacular kind or kitchen or everyday magic not like we read in paranormal novels with mage's and warlocks and all that.

Deliverance's accusers were right about her, she did practice witchcraft. They were only wrong about the fact that it was devil worship when in reality it was fueled by the belief in God.

If I were to find a spell book I would be wary of trying any spells afraid that I would cause damage or perhaps it was an evil spell book. But I would read it and try to find out more about it's history. 

[booksJT]

In the world of Deliverance Dane religion and science are connected. She believes one can't work without the other. If your beliefs are strong you are more likely to believe anything is possible. But the people in Salem feared that anything or anybody outside of their small community  were evil and dangerous.  They lacked the understanding  that there are more things going on outside of their small community.

I think a faithful science would be that the majority of the people have  proved it right.

I n Connies world relgion and science have nothing to do with one another. Science is used to explain the mysteries of the world. While magic is used to mystify people and confuse them about what is real and what is not. Connie believes in science because it validates what is true and false.

In the novel withcraft is used to heal the sick and fortell thier future.

I think Deliverance's accusers were wrong to accuse her of witchcraft. Her accusers didn't understand her methods of healing so they falsely accused of her witchcraft. Had they realized that she was only using garden herbs she would never have been accused.

I think if I found such a book I would probably destroy it. But you first have to believe in order for it to work that is the key. 

[emmagrace]

Deliverance's accusers are wrong about her. They were right about the witch part it seems, but wrong about her intentions! She only tried to heal the sick with her spells/recipes! She was not working with the devil.

If I found a spell/recipe book, I would look for a spell to clean my house! I would also find one to protect my child!

[maryfrancesa]

Is Deliverence practicing magic as in witch craft or her book of herbs.  In the old country most of the female healers used the herbs and other to take care of their servants, friends, and family and were not considered witches.  I think that maybe peolpe in Salem equate healing with medicine and man's work and considered other than midwife any other healers were unnatural

[DSaff]

In Deliverance's day, religion ruled everything. If science didn't match, then it was magic - something to be destroyed and feared. Magic (witchcraft), as presented in this novel, was a means of helping others, a way of healing. Religion taught strict adherence to the preacher and his words. There didn't seem to be a personal relationship with God, yet Deliverance would say a prayer over someone who was afflicted with an ailment.

 Deliverance's accusers were both right and wrong about her. They were right in believing that she could provide remedies that others didn't understand, but they were horribly wrong in accusing her of being hurtful and a murderess. Throughout time, people who are different have always been judged. The Salem Witch Trials are another example of prejudice and self-righteousness leading to mob rule. No voice of reason was able to save them.

If I found a book of spells, I think I would cause my wallet to always have $100.00 in it. That way I wouldn't be broke. Take some out, it is replaced. Such a nice system. LOL

Message Edited by DSaff on 04-14-2009 01:35 PM

[mgorbatjuk]

I think in Deliverance's world the unknown is what turned into witchcraft when it took a turn for the bad. When the the roots, herbs and incantations were working people might not have known how they were working but they were glad they were and didn't question why. When they didn't work and someone died the grief made them question why their loved ones weren't saved. Then there was evil involved and it turned into witchcraft. In Connie's world it is harder to explain.

[CJINCA]

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rkubie wrote:

How are magic, religion, and science related in the world of Deliverance Dane? How is Deliverance's thinking about these things different from those around her?

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On p315, Deliverance says, "I believe that there is nothing in this world or the next that is not the work of God."

Deliverance is a person of profound faith, but her beliefs are different from those of the people around her.  Her magic seems to be a natural extension of her religious beliefs.  This magic is handed down from mother to daughter in a community where men were the only ones with religious learning and leadership.  These are challenges to those men with religious/political power that, at the moment anyway, is based on a very real, near and dangerous Devil.

I don't think science, other than careful observation and documentation, enters in to it for Deliverance and the people of the 1680s-1690s.

But, observation and documentation can seem like 'magic' to people who fail to do either...this is still true today...

-- C.

[Immortal-Spirit]

In the community that Deliverance lived was very small-minded.  Their faith was all that there was.  Deliverance was WAY before her time.  Today, she would be called enlightened.

If I found a shadows book, I would be so fascinated I wouldn't be able to put it down. I would not destroy it.  My curiousity would get the better of me as for trying a spell, but which one.......do I have to pick just one?

[Sassy398]

In Deliverance's time if you went against religion, you are persecuted, as for science,

people really didn't have much to say.

In Connie's world, science means a great deal and unfortunately Religion second, and

the thought of magic is a distant last.

The witchcraft is from grandma's era and not so much of modern day.

Deliverance's accusers are only half right and that is the practice of witchcraft.

Not sure what I'd do with a book of spells.

[tabcat]

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mgorbatjuk wrote:
I think in Deliverance's world the unknown is what turned into witchcraft when it took a turn for the bad. When the the roots, herbs and incantations were working people might not have known how they were working but they were glad they were and didn't question why. When they didn't work and someone died the grief made them question why their loved ones weren't saved. Then there was evil involved and it turned into witchcraft.

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Even in present times, this is often the case with medicine.  We may not understand how modern therapies work, but as mgorbatjuk said, when they do we don't really question it.  When they don't, some people wrongly accuse the physician or care provider of malpractice because the provider has not been able to save their loved one.

Teresa

[DSaff]

I know this is a little off topic, but your post made me think of the book Snow Flower and the Secret Fan. The secret language passed down from mother to daughter in a world where only men were educated.

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CJINCA wrote:

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rkubie wrote:

How are magic, religion, and science related in the world of Deliverance Dane? How is Deliverance's thinking about these things different from those around her?

---

On p315, Deliverance says, "I believe that there is nothing in this world or the next that is not the work of God."

Deliverance is a person of profound faith, but her beliefs are different from those of the people around her.  Her magic seems to be a natural extension of her religious beliefs.  This magic is handed down from mother to daughter in a community where men were the only ones with religious learning and leadership.  These are challenges to those men with religious/political power that, at the moment anyway, is based on a very real, near and dangerous Devil.

I don't think science, other than careful observation and documentation, enters in to it for Deliverance and the people of the 1680s-1690s.

But, observation and documentation can seem like 'magic' to people who fail to do either...this is still true today...

-- C.

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[Adeline79]

I must admit to being a bit confused about this topic. Having come to the book with very little by way of prior knowledge of witchcraft, it has been surprising to me that in Deliverance's mind there was such a link between the religion of her time and witchcraft. I guess I had not thought of witchcraft as linked to traditional religion in any way.

Did the people of Salem think in terms of good and evil and try to categorise everything in this way? Rather than realising that many things in life just happen with no particularly good or evil motivation, they seemed to be very scared of any bad things that happen and attribute it to evil forces. Because they attributed all the bad things in their lives to an outside evil force, they were very intent on eradicating anything or anyone who was categorised as evil.

[Tarri]

Deliverance's accusers were right about her and they were wrong about her.  She definitely was able to make things happen, but she was all about doing good.  Also, the main reason she was accused was because she didn't help that young girl and that gave the village women who I think were jealous an excuse to spread gossip and innuendos about Deliverance. 

The "witchcraft" in this novel is more a knowledge passed through the generations of women healers.  Deliverance knew about herbs and passed her knowledge to her daughter, both through instruction and The Receipt Book. 

If I found the book of spells and recipes, I would first look up the herb that would cure obesity.  

[thewanderingjew]

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

[ponie]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

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So true. Well said.  "Someone has to pay for our inability (or refusal) to understand or justify (or take responsibility for) events."

[DSaff]

Well said!

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

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[EbonyAngel]

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rkubie wrote:

How are magic, religion, and science related in the world of Deliverance Dane? How is Deliverance's thinking about these things different from those around her?

Magic is bad, religion is good and science has nothing to do with either one, it just is.  To Deliverance, there is no magic, it's all religion and beliefs.  She doesn't think of the properties of the different plants and potions as magic or science, but a gift from G*d, (religion).

How are science, magic, and religion related in Connie's world?

In Connie's world, they are separate things to be either proven or disproven.  She feels that science can dispel magical and religious beliefs.

On page 284, Chilton says that science has only the ability to doubt. What would a "faithful" science be?

I'm not sure there could be a "faithful" science.  What is called science is only what used to be myth, magic or beliefs.

How would you describe the "witchcraft" we find in this novel?

The witchcraft in this novel is mostly the art of healing using natural plants. 

Are Deliverance's accusers right about her? Why or why not?

As she herself says, she is a witch.  So, in that respect, they were right.  They were not right in the fact of what their beliefs of a witch to be.  Deliverance did not harm anyone, she only tried to help.

On the lighter side, if you were to find a book of spells and recipes, what spell would you look up for yourself first?

I need a lot of thought for this one.

Message Edited by rkubie on 04-14-2009 01:45 AM

Message Edited by rkubie on 04-14-2009 01:58 AM

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[CathyB]

Very well said!!

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I believe Deliverance was a gifted healer, not a witch. Fear and religious fanaticism or extremism caused panic and unjust sentences to be passed on innocent victims in order to justify superstition. I think Mr. Petford simply wanted vengeance for a tragedy he couldn't come to terms with and so he blamed Deliverance. She just happened to be the convenient target for him.

I am at a loss to understand how young girls could have joined forces to lie and essentially cause murders to be committed. Where was their remorse? How could they have gone undiscovered and unpunished? How could they all live with themselves since surely some townspeople had to have known what was going on with those young girls? Was fear for their own lives if they dissented the reason they all joined in the hysteria?

Deliverance tried to help others. If she used magic, it was for good. The group of young girls tried to harm others and lied outright. The injustice is that she was put to death and they remained unpunished for the most part. We have often seen the mob mentality create just such an environment throughout our history, wreaking havoc in its path.

Even today. there are people who want to blame others for their misfortunes. Perhaps that is why we are such a litigious society. It isn't about guilt or innocence. Often it is about retribution. Someone has to pay for our inability to understand or justify events. Too often we overreact.

twj

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