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DSaff
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I noticed that too. It is fun making these connections and it is one of my favorite analogies in this book. =)

 


aprilh wrote:

On page 263, Mercy is trying to come up with a "receipt" for time reversal so she can save Deliverance from being taken away. "...and, as she shuffled through the drawers in her mind looking for the words that she needed..." It reminded me of when Connie was searching her own mental drawers looking for the answers she needed for her oral qualifiying exam.


 

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
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DSaff
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Excellent points. I highlighted the line about women condemning one another while I was reading and it continues to make me sad. Your questions are great -- too bad we will never truly know the answers.


Zeal wrote:

One of the most powerful passages in these chapters, I found on pg. 300.  I was horrified by the humiliation that the midwives put Deliverance through during their examination.  I could feel her embarrassment, shame, and pain.  Deliverance thinks, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other, she reflected...Women posed dangers to one another that they somehow did not pose to men.  It made me wonder if that same idea is true today.  If the midwives and other women had bonded together, would they have defeated the jury of men?  What made the women tell the lies and spread rumors about Deliverance and the others?  Jealousy?

 

 


 

 

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Wow Donna, you really caught me off guard with that thought!  Connie pregnant?  Sam dies?  The thought saddens me because I imagine Connie and Sam refurbishing and preserving Granna's old house.  Than I remembered reading something, it's on page 290.  Grace tells Connie that all things go in cycles.  Her husbands accident happened in 18 months but Grace's father and mother lived 20some years together.  I stretched that thought to also just being together.  Sophie and husband together a long time, Grace not so long, so it follows to me that Connie is due to spend a long time with Sam.  I belong to the lifelong optimist club, what can I say?!
DSaff wrote:

 

While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help, so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section. 

 

 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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DSaff
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I can't bear the thought the Sam might die; I don't even like that he is hurting. I haven't finished the book yet, and hope Connie can save him. They are good together, and if she is pregnant.... Maybe he will break the curse cycle and they will live happily ever after! (optimist here)


Carmenere_lady wrote:
Wow Donna, you really caught me off guard with that thought!  Connie pregnant?  Sam dies?  The thought saddens me because I imagine Connie and Sam refurbishing and preserving Granna's old house.  Than I remembered reading something, it's on page 290.  Grace tells Connie that all things go in cycles.  Her husbands accident happened in 18 months but Grace's father and mother lived 20some years together.  I stretched that thought to also just being together.  Sophie and husband together a long time, Grace not so long, so it follows to me that Connie is due to spend a long time with Sam.  I belong to the lifelong optimist club, what can I say?!
DSaff wrote:

 

While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help, so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section. 

 

 


 

 

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I quite agree with you Yvonne and Debbie.  I was so embarrassed for Deliverance and what those creepy women put her through.  I feel they would have made up anything just to accuse someone of witchery.  Just the thought of these women calling each other Goody this and Goody that  nauseates me.
dhaupt wrote:

maude40 wrote:
I can't imagine how the women and children got through the times in Salem during the witch trials. Pages 294-302 where Deliverance is jailed with 4 year old Dorcas Good and Goody Osborne was a very depressing section. You could almost feel the filth and the rats and the dampness and dank atmosphere they were forced to live in. I thought Ms. Howe wrote a vivid description of how conditions probably were during this horrilbe incident in history. Yvonne
Oh Yvonne, Dorcas just broke my heart and Deliverance became more important a character when she constantly tried to ease her suffering. The only evil monsters of the time where the accusers and the judges and jury.

 


 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Chilton reminds me of Snape from the Harry Potter series.
PiperMurphy wrote:

I haven't trusted Chilton from the beginning, but I think he is a fascinating character, especially after the scene in the library. Connie finds out once and for all that he is not the mentor that she thought he was. She realizes that he has to be stopped and she is the only one who can do it.

 

 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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Carmenere_lady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Good quote Impmn.  I hadn't thought, at the time of reading, that this may refer to Sam's life.
lmpmn wrote:

pg 287  quote from book:

 

          "I must warn you," he said, one index finger extended.  "You have every reason to want to find that book.  I am sure you know what I mean."

 

          She stared at him, saying nothing.  "And," he continued, pointing to the ticking light switch, "and you are almost out of time."

 

          As he said this the timer emitted a loud click, and Connie was swallowed up in darkness.

 

I think Chilton isn't just talking about her finding the book here.  I think he's talking about Connie helping Sam.  I think Chilton had something to do with Sam's illness.

 

Connie's understanding her mother more and more.  It's good to see that they will probably have a closer relationship in the future.

 

I wonder what will happen with the sale of the house.  I'd like to see it stay in the family.  I wonder if Grace actually intended to sell it at all, or if that was just an excuse for her to send Connie up there so she could get in tune with her past and her powers?


 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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PiperMurphy
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


Zeal wrote:

PiperMurphy wrote:

rkubie wrote:

 

Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?

 

What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him? 

 

Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest? 

 

 


I've been waiting for this week to comment on Chilton so that I wouldn't spoil anything for anyone. I went back and reread Chapter 13 where Janine tells Connie about Chilton's belief in alchemy and Chapter 1 for Connie's oral exam. In Chapter 13, we find out that Chilton not only believes that alchemy is real, but he is obsessed with proving it. In Chapter 1, Chilton asks Connie "Have you not considered the distinct possibility that the accused were simply guilty of witchcraft?" So, we have a clue that Chilton might believe in witchcraft. Then on page 285 when he says he's "not a sexist" he makes a brilliant speech about the connection of alchemy with witchcraft, and that the piece that he needs for proof is the technique for the witchcraft. Then he tells us that most of the practitioners of witchcraft are women.

 

This is really a chilling speech. Chilton sounds crazed. You could almost feel Connie's fear. I think that Chilton honestly believes that he isn't a sexist because he is looking at the situation scientifically. Facts are facts. But, that has blinded him to the fact that he is calling the book by the wrong name. That's why he can't find it. If he had thought about how a woman would refer to such a book he might have found it. Instead he gives Connie the clue that she needs.

 

I haven't trusted Chilton from the beginning, but I think he is a fascinating character, especially after the scene in the library. Connie finds out once and for all that he is not the mentor that she thought he was. She realizes that he has to be stopped and she is the only one who can do it.

 

Connie never doubted that the book existed and that she would find it. It seems like an impossible task, but she used a logical and systematic approach to find it.  I think that she was acting on faith, but she was also acting within whatever powers or enchantments were in the house.


You totally have Chilton figured out!  I agree...excellent observations!


Thank you! :smileyhappy:

"When I have a little money, I buy books; and if I have any left, I buy food and clothes."
~Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus~
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Carmenere_lady
Posts: 529
Registered: ‎11-05-2006

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Now, if they really want to break any curse cycles they'll have a boy!  I'd name him.........Dane!
DSaff wrote:

I can't bear the thought the Sam might die; I don't even like that he is hurting. I haven't finished the book yet, and hope Connie can save him. They are good together, and if she is pregnant.... Maybe he will break the curse cycle and they will live happily ever after! (optimist here)


Carmenere_lady wrote:
Wow Donna, you really caught me off guard with that thought!  Connie pregnant?  Sam dies?  The thought saddens me because I imagine Connie and Sam refurbishing and preserving Granna's old house.  Than I remembered reading something, it's on page 290.  Grace tells Connie that all things go in cycles.  Her husbands accident happened in 18 months but Grace's father and mother lived 20some years together.  I stretched that thought to also just being together.  Sophie and husband together a long time, Grace not so long, so it follows to me that Connie is due to spend a long time with Sam.  I belong to the lifelong optimist club, what can I say?!
DSaff wrote:

 

While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help, so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section. 

 

 


 

 


 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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Danimal79
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Registered: ‎12-03-2008
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

This book continues to be very exciting and I've had a hard time not reading ahead (I had to rely on other books as a distraction, after completing chapter 21!).

 

I don't get the feeling that Sam will die..mainly because I don't think Katherine Howe will close the book on such a sinister note.  Connie holds the key to his surviving but it seems as though she may be able to do so on her own..even without the help of the book.  Grace has said, numerous times, that Connie doesn't really need to find the book.  This implies to me that the book is simply an aid to Connie's innate abilities.

 

I was a little frustrated when Grace didn't attempt to warn Connie more thoroughly about Sam.  She did try to say something to her, while on the telephone, but it wasn't enough. But..maybe she couldn't prevent it from happening, no matter what she said to Connie??

 

My feelings about Chilton and the mistrust I have of him haven't changed..they've only intensified. Clearly he's using Connie as a pawn but what I'm interested in finding out is whether he actually knows of Connie's abilities (or her relationship to women who have such abilities) or if that is a pure coincidence.  Why has he selected Connie as the person to help him achieve his gains?  Are there other things about her that make her appealing to him and his designs?  Or does he already know that Connie will be able to use the book the way it was intended?  Also..why can't Chilton find the book himself?  Does he know the book will not work for him..the way the growing spell didn't work for Sam??

 

 

 

 

Author of Chronic Stimulation- a diary chronicling every day life with a recently implanted neurostimulator (for severe chronic pain).

http://www.chronicstimulation.blogspot.com/
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JerseyAngel
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I have to say Part 2 is exciting! It's great to see everything coming together. Many of the things we thought were oversights on the author's part or just didn't make sense are falling together & making sense. The garden for instance must be alive & sprouting out of season tomatoes because of the spells Granna used when she was alive. The dead plants in the house so Connie could practice the new spell. Even those little things now making sense make me want to keep reading more!

 

I really hope Sam doesn't die. I would assume, or hope, the author doesn't leave us wondering at the end. If she simply cures him, then we would always wonder if he died later on in their lives. So I'm thinking, as others said, that he might die OR I think she may find something that others overlooked that will actually break this "curse". I'm hoping for Sam to live. I think their bond is strong & they are good for each other.

 

The symbol on the door is from Grace for protection. I am curious from what exactly though. What would she need such protection from that would require a huge symbol to be burned into her door. It makes it seem as though she would need a strong amount of protection from something serious. Chilton perhaps? Grace did seem immediately wary of him when Connie brought him up over the phone. No doubt the connection between Connie & Grace is evolving & growing stronger. I think Connie's new found powers & her the new revelation of her ancestors has caused her to look at her mother's new age practices in a much different light.

 

This book is truly getting better as it continues & I am anxious to finish. I think I'll be a little sad when it is. I feel like I have gotten to know Connie, Sam & Arlo so well that I hate to see them go!

 

Stephanie

 

 

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Danimal79
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Another thing I'd like to know about, in regard to Chilton, is whether he has any inclination about Sam and about the pattern of men who were harmed (I apologize if this issue has already been raised..I haven't had a chance to read every messge in this post!).  Anyway, when Connie encounters Chilton at the library, he threatens her at the end and says, "you have every reason to want to find that book.  I am sure you know what I mean." 

 

Does he know about Sam?  Does he have something to do with what's happened to Sam?  Is he somehow harming Sam to put pressure on Connie so she'll find the book sooner?  

Author of Chronic Stimulation- a diary chronicling every day life with a recently implanted neurostimulator (for severe chronic pain).

http://www.chronicstimulation.blogspot.com/
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Danimal79
Posts: 28
Registered: ‎12-03-2008

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I thought the selections from the King James Bible (at the beginning of Part II) were very interesting, particularly the first one:

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."  

 

The "word of God" and the role that God plays in relation to Connie and her Puritan ancestors is seen again and again throughout this book.  I'm very curious to see how this connection will play out!

Author of Chronic Stimulation- a diary chronicling every day life with a recently implanted neurostimulator (for severe chronic pain).

http://www.chronicstimulation.blogspot.com/
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aprilh
Posts: 424
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

The scene at Granna's house when Connie is using the sieve and scissors to get answers to her questions was extremely powerful. Katherine Howe did such a wonderful job describing it, that I could see every detail clearly in my mind's eye: from the dent made in the cabinet, the scissors sunk into the jamb of the screen door, down to the chipped lime green paint of the colander! So far my favorite scene in the book!:smileyhappy:

April
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thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I was intrigued when Connie put two and two together to connect her heritage. The thing that confounded me, however, is how she could have grown up with Grace and never suspected anything unusual about her, other than her seeming spirituality and eccentricity. As she discovers more about the history of the witches, she discovers more and more about herself and begins to see her mom in a different light. Perhaps her mom's distance from her was merely her way of letting Connnie discover herself and develop her own "magical talents.
At first I thought that perhaps she had had "supernatural" experiences when she was younger which she rejected. When she seemed so unaware when her mom reminded her of her "green thumb" as a youngster, which related somewhat to her ability to make the spider plant rejuvenate, I had to toss out that theory. Her naivete seemed a bit far fetched since she is, after all, a Harvard student. One would have thought she would have caught on to her own abilities sooner, unless she consciously tried to avoid them.
I am hoping, like Pollyanna, that Connie uses her abilities to "cure" Sam and lives happily ever after. I love a fairy tale, even with a witch's brew! It doesn't bode well for that, though, so far, since no male partner has survived their "witch" mate, but I haven't finished the book so I have no idea how it will turn out in the end.
Sam's fits confuse me, however, because I thought that the girls were actually pretending to have fits so I am not sure what the relationship is with all of them unless it is good vs evil and he is possessed by something evil. I think of the witches and their craft as something good, not evil, and I do not believe that evil would have entered Sam in the church and that is where his "illness" seemingly began. I need to give this a lot more thought or start reading the next section pronto!
I am getting really disgusted with Connie's adviser Chilton. He is so self possessed. Once again, though, Connie seems too naive, especially about his motives. I think he implies that he isn't sexist because he acknowledges that it is the women who have the gift. He wants to use Connie to access it in some way for his own benefit and future, rather than give her credit for her discoveries, so in that way, he most certainly is sexist.
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ponie
Posts: 359
Registered: ‎01-30-2009

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


thewanderingjew wrote:
I was intrigued when Connie put two and two together to connect her heritage. The thing that confounded me, however, is how she could have grown up with Grace and never suspected anything unusual about her, other than her seeming spirituality and eccentricity. As she discovers more about the history of the witches, she discovers more and more about herself and begins to see her mom in a different light. Perhaps her mom's distance from her was merely her way of letting Connnie discover herself and develop her own "magical talents.
At first I thought that perhaps she had had "supernatural" experiences when she was younger which she rejected. When she seemed so unaware when her mom reminded her of her "green thumb" as a youngster, which related somewhat to her ability to make the spider plant rejuvenate, I had to toss out that theory. Her naivete seemed a bit far fetched since she is, after all, a Harvard student. One would have thought she would have caught on to her own abilities sooner, unless she consciously tried to avoid them.
I am hoping, like Pollyanna, that Connie uses her abilities to "cure" Sam and lives happily ever after. I love a fairy tale, even with a witch's brew! It doesn't bode well for that, though, so far, since no male partner has survived their "witch" mate, but I haven't finished the book so I have no idea how it will turn out in the end.
Sam's fits confuse me, however, because I thought that the girls were actually pretending to have fits so I am not sure what the relationship is with all of them unless it is good vs evil and he is possessed by something evil. I think of the witches and their craft as something good, not evil, and I do not believe that evil would have entered Sam in the church and that is where his "illness" seemingly began. I need to give this a lot more thought or start reading the next section pronto!
I am getting really disgusted with Connie's adviser Chilton. He is so self possessed. Once again, though, Connie seems too naive, especially about his motives. I think he implies that he isn't sexist because he acknowledges that it is the women who have the gift. He wants to use Connie to access it in some way for his own benefit and future, rather than give her credit for her discoveries, so in that way, he most certainly is sexist.

 

Interesting twj!  you say I am hoping, like Pollyanna, that Connie uses her abilities to "cure" Sam and lives happily ever after. I love a fairy tale, even with a witch's brew! It doesn't bode well for that, though, so far, since no male partner has survived their "witch" mate...

I watched Practical Magic over the weekend.  Something the detective (the next possible love in Sandra Bullock's life - I can't remember his name) said comes to mind..."a curse only has power if you believe in it"...maybe Sam doesn't believe in "the curse", would it matter???

ponie
Wordsmith
kiakar
Posts: 3,435
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


dhaupt wrote:

maude40 wrote:
I can't imagine how the women and children got through the times in Salem during the witch trials. Pages 294-302 where Deliverance is jailed with 4 year old Dorcas Good and Goody Osborne was a very depressing section. You could almost feel the filth and the rats and the dampness and dank atmosphere they were forced to live in. I thought Ms. Howe wrote a vivid description of how conditions probably were during this horrilbe incident in history. Yvonne
Oh Yvonne, Dorcas just broke my heart and Deliverance became more important a character when she constantly tried to ease her suffering. The only evil monsters of the time where the accusers and the judges and jury.

 


Isn't it marvelous to look at what happened in this time period and know we have come along way in judging others. Not that we haven't got alot to learn but it feels good that we are definitely out of this horrible behavior. 

 

But you know, even today, people get so bound up in their beliefs and religions that they become self rightous in thinking their thinking is the only way.  And this is plain judging to me. When marches become like riots over abortion and the gay issue, we are still bound with that sheer smuckness, that our way of thinking is the only way. God is love. And Love is all about kindness, gentleness and respect. Would God approve of gay bashing and abortion riots? It doesn't sound like love to me, to indulge in hateful acts against our brothers and sisters of God. .

Wordsmith
ponie
Posts: 359
Registered: ‎01-30-2009

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


kiakar wrote:

dhaupt wrote:

maude40 wrote:
I can't imagine how the women and children got through the times in Salem during the witch trials. Pages 294-302 where Deliverance is jailed with 4 year old Dorcas Good and Goody Osborne was a very depressing section. You could almost feel the filth and the rats and the dampness and dank atmosphere they were forced to live in. I thought Ms. Howe wrote a vivid description of how conditions probably were during this horrilbe incident in history. Yvonne
Oh Yvonne, Dorcas just broke my heart and Deliverance became more important a character when she constantly tried to ease her suffering. The only evil monsters of the time where the accusers and the judges and jury.

 


Isn't it marvelous to look at what happened in this time period and know we have come along way in judging others. Not that we haven't got alot to learn but it feels good that we are definitely out of this horrible behavior. 

 

But you know, even today, people get so bound up in their beliefs and religions that they become self rightous in thinking their thinking is the only way.  And this is plain judging to me. When marches become like riots over abortion and the gay issue, we are still bound with that sheer smuckness, that our way of thinking is the only way. God is love. And Love is all about kindness, gentleness and respect. Would God approve of gay bashing and abortion riots? It doesn't sound like love to me, to indulge in hateful acts against our brothers and sisters of God. .


When the righteousness becomes self-righteousness, God is no longer involved. 

 

We all have a right to our beliefs, I think it's all too often HOW we defend those beliefs that breaks God's heart.

ponie
Distinguished Wordsmith
pjpick
Posts: 1,043
Registered: ‎03-16-2007

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


Zeal wrote:

 

One of the most powerful passages in these chapters, I found on pg. 300.  I was horrified by the humiliation that the midwives put Deliverance through during their examination.  I could feel her embarrassment, shame, and pain.  Deliverance thinks, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other, she reflected...Women posed dangers to one another that they somehow did not pose to men.  It made me wonder if that same idea is true today.  If the midwives and other women had bonded together, would they have defeated the jury of men?  What made the women tell the lies and spread rumors about Deliverance and the others?  Jealousy?

 

 


I, too, was bowled over by this statement and felt it was still something that women still seem to do today, unfortunately. In fact this was the only statement which I underlined in my book, it made such an impact on me.

 

My guess that probably the reason the other women spread rumors about the accused and the other midwives stated they found "the witches teat" was mainly out of fear. If they renounced the accusations they too could be seen as defending a witch and therefore could be seen as being witches themselves. It was definitely a no win situation after all so many of the "tests" for witches were no win situations--Ex: attach a woman to bag of stones and sink her in the river. If she floats she's a witch, if she sinks/drowns she isn't.

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TRJ4SQ
Posts: 193
Registered: ‎03-10-2009

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21-MY THOUGHTS ON CHAPTER 15

I knew Connie was going to revive the dead plants! Hmmm, that could come in handy as I've had more than a few of the crispy brown little creatures.

 

 

The plant incantation is actually a prayer. The first part goes something like...FATHER IN HEAVEN, I BEG YOUR GENEROSITY/KINDNESS....WASTED PLANT...but I couldn't translate the rest.

 

I must have missed something about Temperance Hobbs. Can anyone recall a reference? I guess she must be the link between Sophie & Patience. What do you all think?