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libralady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I liked Deliverance from the very beginning.  I believe that she is a good person and even though she possessed "certain powers", she had a strong belief in God.  She showed enormous compassion in Chapter 21, when she comforted Dorcas and invited Goody Osborne to come and pray with her.  What those women did to her at the end of the chapter is unthinkable.  I agree with an earlier post that the quote on pg. 300, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other" is so descriptive of the attitudes of the women of that time and perhaps later throughout history. 
"Sow today what you want to reap tomorrow"
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GadgetgirlKS
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I am anxious to figure out what Prof. Chilton is up to! I can't figure out if he is out to harm Connie or trying to push her in the right direction. I found this section to be the best part of the book thus far becuase it answered so many questions.

 

I think I am going to finish the book asap to satisfy my curiosity about Prof. Chilton.

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libralady
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


GadgetgirlKS wrote:

I am anxious to figure out what Prof. Chilton is up to! I can't figure out if he is out to harm Connie or trying to push her in the right direction. I found this section to be the best part of the book thus far becuase it answered so many questions.

 

I think I am going to finish the book asap to satisfy my curiosity about Prof. Chilton.


 

I am anxious to find out what he is up to as well!  I have disliked him from the start and I want to know if he is a true villain or if he will turn out to be someone who really has Connie's best interest at heart (I think this is doubtful).  I can't wait to find out the true story on him and also if Connie will be able to save Sam. 
"Sow today what you want to reap tomorrow"
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pen21
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


aprilh wrote:

The scene at Granna's house when Connie is using the sieve and scissors to get answers to her questions was extremely powerful. Katherine Howe did such a wonderful job describing it, that I could see every detail clearly in my mind's eye: from the dent made in the cabinet, the scissors sunk into the jamb of the screen door, down to the chipped lime green paint of the colander! So far my favorite scene in the book!:smileyhappy:


I agree. The description was beautiful and was such a growing experience for Connie.

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Zeal
Posts: 258
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21-MY THOUGHTS ON CHAPTER 20 & INTERLUDE


DSaff wrote:

I, like you, believe that books hold the essence of previous generations. We learn about culture, mores, fears, thoughts, activities, etc., from fiction and non-fiction. Some of my favorite reading is my grandmother's journals. Entries range from the weather and a brief description of daily life to detailed entries of the day, including some recipes and reminders. It is fascinating reading.


TRJ4SQ wrote:

 CHAPTER 20:

 

 

I noted it interesting that the author references the old books absorbing the essence of former generations as is my belief. What are your thoughts on this concept?

 


 


 

I also agree that books hold the essence of former generations.  Without them, we would know very little about the past.  They serve as a mirror, reflecting the connection to our relatives throughout the generations.  I have a recipe book of my grandmothers (my daughter is named after her), but it is so much more than that.  It includes notes and thoughts in the margin of many recipes.  while she was cooking, she used to jot things down so that she would remember them.  I have inherited my grandmother's innate cooking ability, and I contribute part of that to the many written pieces of that recipe book.  I also have letters that were written by my grandfather when he was in the war.  They not only reflect upon his life in the war, but also the deep love that he felt for my grandmother.  My grandfather came home from the war an alcoholic and a changed man.  Without those letters, I never would have know that special, sensitive part of him. 
"I learned to dream through reading, learned to create dreams through writing, and learned to develop dreamers through teaching. I shall always be a dreamer."
Sharon Draper
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pen21
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Grace

I enjoyed the phone call from Connie to Grace in Chapter 20. Connie is so excited that she has Deliverance's book. Grace says "Though I still say you don't need it. Well, I suppose it can't hurt. It can be nice to have some concrete guidelines when you're just starting out." I see Grace having complete trust in Connie's ability to help Sam.  For me this phone call says so much about Grace and her relation to Connie.
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belle1976
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


lmpmn wrote:

pg 287  quote from book:

 

          "I must warn you," he said, one index finger extended.  "You have every reason to want to find that book.  I am sure you know what I mean."

 

          She stared at him, saying nothing.  "And," he continued, pointing to the ticking light switch, "and you are almost out of time."

 

          As he said this the timer emitted a loud click, and Connie was swallowed up in darkness.

 

I think Chilton isn't just talking about her finding the book here.  I think he's talking about Connie helping Sam.  I think Chilton had something to do with Sam's illness.

 

 


Ohh, I think that is facinating and probably true.   What I can't help but wonder is why he thinks that Connie would continue to help him or share the book with him if she knows what he is capable of. 

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PB684
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


aprilh wrote:

On page 263, Mercy is trying to come up with a "receipt" for time reversal so she can save Deliverance from being taken away. "...and, as she shuffled through the drawers in her mind looking for the words that she needed..." It reminded me of when Connie was searching her own mental drawers looking for the answers she needed for her oral qualifiying exam.


 

YES! I made that same connection! I just love the image that the phrase conjures up. I wish I could access my "mental drawers" that easily:smileyvery-happy:

PB684

PB684
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PB684
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


libralady wrote: 
I agree with an earlier post that the quote on pg. 300, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other" is so descriptive of the attitudes of the women of that time and perhaps later throughout history. 

You're correct and, unfortunately, I think that attitude still exists today. I have heard so many women complain that female bosses are the hardest to get along with! I'm not really sure why that is.

PB684:smileyhappy:

PB684
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PiperMurphy
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


PB684 wrote:

libralady wrote: 
I agree with an earlier post that the quote on pg. 300, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other" is so descriptive of the attitudes of the women of that time and perhaps later throughout history. 

You're correct and, unfortunately, I think that attitude still exists today. I have heard so many women complain that female bosses are the hardest to get along with! I'm not really sure why that is.

PB684:smileyhappy:


 

Competition. They have to prove to the men that they are capable to hold the position they are in. Then sometimes other women can be viewed as a threat. At least that's what seemed to motivate some of the women that I worked for.
"When I have a little money, I buy books; and if I have any left, I buy food and clothes."
~Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus~
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meme1
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I see Connie becoming more comfortable with herself and gaining a great deal of confidence.  She no longer touches her braid when she is in an unfamiliar or stressful situation like she did in the first part of the novel.  Instead she thinks through her problem and works at a solution.

 

Unbelievably strong character development by Ms Howe in this novel - Deliverance, Connie, Grace and the creepy Chilton.:smileyhappy:

 

meme

~~ Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

~~ Be careful reading health books. You may die of a misprint. Mark Twain
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chris227
Posts: 111
Registered: ‎12-02-2008

Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

I'm posting this before reading the other post so forgive me if I am repeating someone else!  So in this section Connie finally realizes That she is a decendent of Deliverance and that she also has 'powers.'  I don;t know about everyone else and I don't know if it's because the reader finds out this information sooner but it just wasn't as climactic for me as I thought it would be.  I mean I'm still really enjoying the book and thought this section was good but when she had the revelation I just kind of thought "well it's about time!"

 

As for Sam, it does seem as if he is one of the 'unfortunate' men of the line.  His seizures, or 'fitts' are pretty bizarre for a healthy young man.  I definitely think that someone is 'cursing' him and my guess (and I'm sure I am not alone in this) is that Chilton has something to do with it.  I want to say that Connie will figure out something to do to save Sam but looking at the outcomes for the other men this line of women is involved with I don't see him surviving.

 

The 'practicing' with the key and Bible and with the sieve and scissors are ways of finding out information about the future.  You ask a yes or no question and receive a yes if the key fall out or the sieve falls to the floor.  At first it seemed pretty silly, I mean there's always a chance that the key or sieve will fall just due to balance and gravity but after the descriptions of Connie 'practicing' it was like wow it's not just a matter of the items simply falling, the items are forcefully thrown down to the floor.  Pretty interesting.

 

The burnt mark on the door (as some suspected) was sent by Grace as some sort of protection.  I guess it was Grace invoking God to intercede on Connie's behalf and protect her. 

 

Chilton states 'he is not a sexist' when he is explaining to Connie that the alchemists failed to find the philosophers stone because they failed to study 'vernacular magic' or witchcraft because that is practiced by women.  He was admitting that he is interested in Connie finding the book because he is hoping that it will help to prove his new theory.  He is saying that women and men would both be capable of this type of alchemy.  I wonder if this is his way of telling Connie that men could also practice witchcraft.  I'm also thinking that perhaps Chilton also comes from a line that 'has powers.'  Perhaps Chilton is the one causing Sam's 'fitts.'  Because he was aware of his own ancestory, he had prior awareness of Connie's heritage and it was his plan for her to lead him to this book from the very beginning of his work with her?  His comment though did get Connie thinking that a 'recipe' book would be seen as a woman's book and would never have been kept at the Harvard library but would have been shipped off to Radcliffe which is where she found the book (no mention though of exactly how she found it since she had no good idea of what exactly to look for). That being said you can probably tell that I still do not like nor trust Chilton.  It seems that Connie is finally beginning to distrust him and she does not want him to know that she found the book.

 

Connie's quest for the book which seemed to be impossible to find was definitely a daunting task.  Connie took on the task eagerly and persevered through the many obstacles that stood in her way.  The search is a testamnet to her character and her quest for knowledge and truth.  She definitely lived up to her name!

 

Connie is finally starting to see herself differently.  I think her relationship with her mother has changed for the better.  Connie can now better understand her mother and what Connie used to think of strange she now understands is just the way that Grace decided to practice her craft.  She, just as the long line of women before her, is using her craft to help heal others.

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Carmenere_lady
Posts: 529
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

This scene reminded me of one very similar in a book titled Like Water for Chocolate.  Some remarkabley magical things go on in this woman's kitchen too.  And there too the imagery is so good you can see those sparks fly just like in Granna's kitchen.
pen21 wrote:

aprilh wrote:

The scene at Granna's house when Connie is using the sieve and scissors to get answers to her questions was extremely powerful. Katherine Howe did such a wonderful job describing it, that I could see every detail clearly in my mind's eye: from the dent made in the cabinet, the scissors sunk into the jamb of the screen door, down to the chipped lime green paint of the colander! So far my favorite scene in the book!:smileyhappy:


I agree. The description was beautiful and was such a growing experience for Connie.


 

Lynda

"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader


"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife

It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
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chris227
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Oh my goodness, I didn't think of this is Connie pregnant??  You're right all the other men died but after fathering a daughter.  Another reason to delve right into that last section!


While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help, so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section. 

 

 

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chris227
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Re: Jail

I agree that the description of the jail was amazing.  The whole first page about the rat cleaning itself and then feeling a foot brush against it, it gave me chills just reading it!  These poor women were left in the most terrible conditions, but even worse than the actual imprisonement was the 'examination' by the midwives.  What a humiliating and degrading experience!  This was not meant to find evidence of a mark but just to further punish these women and for Deliverance that experience was far worse than the weeks of imprisonment she had endured.

 


maude40 wrote:
I can't imagine how the women and children got through the times in Salem during the witch trials. Pages 294-302 where Deliverance is jailed with 4 year old Dorcas Good and Goody Osborne was a very depressing section. You could almost feel the filth and the rats and the dampness and dank atmosphere they were forced to live in. I thought Ms. Howe wrote a vivid description of how conditions probably were during this horrilbe incident in history. Yvonne

 

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Skelly7645
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Re: Jail

I, like so many of the First Look readers, love this book. Some comments:

I think that Grace is the person who placed the burnt symbol on the door of the house on Milk St. ( as it is often referred to) 

 

I like the way the pace of the Interlude chapters are starting to built in this third week.  They give us the history we need as readers to bring the past and present together, and they really notch up the growing suspense.

 

I have read a number of the comments written in this week's thread, and have to say that I never thought about the possibility of Connie being pregnant, and I am hoping that Connie's strength in her powers will aid her in helping Sam.

 

I was so uncomfortable as I read the chapter about the examination of Deliverence. Once again Ms. Howe has brought us right into the story. 

 

Connie, and the other characters, seem so real to me.  Ms. Howe's selection of words and descriptions are so vivid and real!! I love her style.

 

Like so many readers, I can't wait to continue on, and at the same time I don't want to see the book draw to a conclusion.  I work in a Bank, and several years ago, we started a "lending library" for the staff.  I will proudly place this book on the top of the bookcase, with a note to recommend it to all. 

 

I hope that we can expect another novel from Katherine Howe, sooner rather than later!! 


With all that said, I am off to a quiet corner in the house to finish the final chapters.

 

Kudos to Ms. Howe.

skelly7645

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meme1
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

Have I missed something?  One of the women at the Salem Trial cast a spell on Applegate's ailing foot.  Has there been something in the story to connect an incident to this?
meme

~~ Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

~~ Be careful reading health books. You may die of a misprint. Mark Twain
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ClaudiaLuce
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


ponie wrote:

LoBugs wrote:

Something that struck me in this section of the reading is that no matter which generation you are in the mother's never come right out and tell the daughter's that they in fact are witches. They very carefully talk all around the subject without ever saying the actual words. I became very aware of it when Connie and Grace are talking about it on the phone. It was like Grace could not get off the phone fast enough. Almost like she was afraid she would spill the beans.  It made me wonder if they can't because of an ill effect it could cause to themself or to the daughters, or if it is as simple as it became taboo due to it's history? Maybe it's even more than all that, what if we all have the power to some exstent but we only gain the use of the power through self awareness of it's exsistence! :smileyhappy:

 


 

LoBugs..or maybe it is responsible parenting!!  Mothers (or fathers) should not tell their children WHAT to think but help them learn HOW to think...not tell them the answers outright but encourage and guide them to their own answers in their own time.  If someone (especially a parent)  tells you what you are or should be or should do then it is never really yours, 100% chosen by you.  And then there is that dynamic of rejecting (rebelling against) the very thing you yourself WOULD have chosen (accepted as your own, gone for, etc) but now can't or don't because someone else told you you should or had to. 

 

You see a lot of this in 2 yr olds as well as adolescents!  A fun and funny example: It's time for bed and Mommy tells her 2 yr old to go put on her red pajamas.  Now the 2 yr old was heading for the red PJs but now, because mommy said so, making the red PJs mommy's idea and not hers, she can't!  Terrible 2s?  No, it's the whole separation and individuation thing; becoming your own person.  With adolescents as well it seems they DO everything you tell them NOT to or NOT do what you tell them to do, especially (your opinion of)what's best for them.  The more hmmmm-ing you do the better...those outright commands, demands and statements never go well with adolescents - or others for that matter!  It has to be their own path, chosen by them, and IT IS hard to watch at times. 

 

There was a social worker who really from early on wanted to become a doctor and didn't because her parents and the rest of the family said they thought she SHOULD be a doctor.  She thought if she became a doctor it would be because they told her to be a doctor, and therefore not her choice.  After a few years of therapy she chose to enter medical school to become a doctor.  She told her parents, " I  am going to be a doctor even though you want me to be one."  It's how she owned it as her own even though it was what they also wanted for her. 

 

It's dicey being a responsible parent sometimes!  I am thinking back now over my harsh judgement of Grace with Connie.  Hmmmm...I'm now thinking Grace knew more than I gave her credit for in the parenting department!


 

Remember when we were talking about mothers and daughters and I suggested that maybe Grace was more of a good mom than most of you thought!  She was a mom who grew up in the 50's and 60's after all!  Being one of those, I can RELATE!!  Sometimes, you have to say things in a totally different manner for those hard headed kids to get what you want them to get! Especially girls. My 35 year old daughter is just now coming in to her own and doing what she was meant to do all along - getting her masters in occupational therapy.  It took her becoming a mom to a very stubborn young lady who is about to turn 3 to understand what her mother said to her many times.  I often "moved out of the way" for her.  Maybe that is why I understood Grace so well, I saw myself in her!
"Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body." -
-- Sir Richard Steele
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TRJ4SQ
Posts: 193
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21-RESPONSES TO MODERATOR QUESTIONS

RESPONSES TO MODERATOR QUESTIONS CHAPTERS 15-21

 

Connie not only comes into her own with her "research" coming to fruition, but also recognizes her own powers and recognizes her own family of women, whose "first names traced a lineage that was undeniable."

 

1. If Connie now sees that Grace has these significant and ancient powers, but just wrapped up in the language and style of her time, then, what would Connie's language and style be?

 

Connie's language and style would be analytical, direct and too the point. Probably Plain Jane matter-of-fact.

 

2. & 3. How can she "come into her own" as a witch as well? Has she done this yet?

 

Connie is at the learning stage right now. With practice and self awareness, she will continue to grow. She isn't quite there because she still has a lot to learn and becoming proficient in any task takes practice. Her fear is causing her to take baby steps.

 

4. & 5. Is Sam one of the "unfortunate" men of this line? Is Grace right?

 

Sam and Connie's attachment is a strong one so I would say it makes him a good candidate. Grace has obviously picked up on this, though how, I do not yet know.

 

6. What do you supposed has "cursed" them?

 

The "curse" is really not a curse but a bargain in trade for the powers that the women have received. As I said before, all power exacts a price.

 

 

7. What are his "fitts?"

 

Sam is bewitched and it happened when he drank the water judging from it's metallic taste. This theory is derived from the method of divination using the person's water and metal pins or nails. I assume it was done by Professor Chilton to encourage Connie to find the book faster.

 

8. What do you predict for Sam? (Of course, for those who haven't read ahead yet!)

 

Grace mention’s the seasons are changing. I believe this to mean that instead of the book destroying the man in the keeper’s life, it now holds his salvation. The book will give Connie the ability to save Sam's life and break the spell. After that, I think he'll be sticking around for a while.

 

9. What is "practicing" with Key and Bible?

 

Divination by key & Bible was actually practiced in various forms and is called cleidomancy or clidomancy.

 

10. What is the burnt mark on the door?

 

It's a mandala summoning God's protection.

 

11. & 12. Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?

 

Women were not allowed to voice opinion in scientific thought throughout the dark ages. As with Deliverance, those with ability, understanding or voice were often condemned. Professor Chilton doesn't mind if Connie is the one to make the discovery because he knows she holds the key. She holds the key wholly because she is a woman. This is the reason the Philosopher's Stone has not been discovered before. Because no merit was placed in the scientific thoughts of women. Connie finds the book based on this principle.

 

13.& 14. What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him?

 

My feelings for Chilton haven't changed except to grow more wary. His desperation makes him dangerous. Connie's growing awareness is not just that of herself. She is learning to scope out people's vibes and she's finally picking up on his. He really creeped her out in the library and that was for a reason.

 

15. Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest?

 

Perhaps it's metaphorical for the search for the Philosopher's Stone?

 

16. & 17. How are the revelations of these chapters changing Connie? Has her relationship with her mother changed now?

 

Connie's new found awareness brings her new found confidence. With this, she is less tolerant to the pressures enacted by Professor Manning (who I believe IS sexist no matter what he says). Now that Connie knows her past and is more self aware, she understands Grace better. Perhaps the problem was with Connie all along. She may have distanced herself from Grace and blocked Grace's intentions.

 

By the Way, Didn't Grace go to Radcliffe?

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TRJ4SQ
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Registered: ‎03-10-2009
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Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21


Danimal79 wrote:

I thought the selections from the King James Bible (at the beginning of Part II) were very interesting, particularly the first one:

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."  

 

The "word of God" and the role that God plays in relation to Connie and her Puritan ancestors is seen again and again throughout this book.  I'm very curious to see how this connection will play out!


This also intriqued me and I still haven't figured out the connection. I feel like I should know and I'm just being dense. It's going to bug me until I (or someone else) figures it out. Please be sure to post if "you get it". :smileyhappy: