Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21

[TRJ4SQ]

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Zeal wrote:

One of the most powerful passages in these chapters, I found on pg. 300.  I was horrified by the humiliation that the midwives put Deliverance through during their examination.  I could feel her embarrassment, shame, and pain.  Deliverance thinks, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other, she reflected...Women posed dangers to one another that they somehow did not pose to men. 

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I've read that this type of "examination" was common practice in the Middle Ages (and perhaps further forward), though usually performed by nuns. It was most often to check for virginity in the event of a royal/high profile marriage, for those entering the cloister or the refute charges of fornication. I'm not sure if it had a specific name (other than degrading).

Those women are lucky that Deliverance only uses her powers for good.

As far as women leaping to condemn each other...The grass is always greener on your side of the fence even if it's only an imagined oasis for someone with a desert in their soul.

[PB684]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

As far as women leaping to condemn each other...The grass is always greener on your side of the fence even if it's only an imagined oasis for someone with a desert in their soul.

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Wow! That was profound! I love the image that provokes. PB684

[meme1]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

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meme1 wrote:
Have I missed something?  One of the women at the Salem Trial cast a spell on Applegate's ailing foot.  Has there been something in the story to connect an incident to this?

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meme, I think what your refering to is located in the first Interlude during Deliverance's slander trial. Check out pages 50-53. Hope that helps!

Message Edited by TRJ4SQ on 04-16-2009 05:22 PM

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 Thanks. Yes, that is the interlude where it occurred, but I saw no further reference in the story to this incident.  (By the way, his name was Appleton, not Applegate as I said.  Sorry.)  I wondered if it played a part later in the trials.   When I first read that interlude, I was sure that the change in the condition of his toe and the look Deliverance Dane and he exchanged would have a reference later in the trial and verdicts.

[TRJ4SQ]

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PB684 wrote:

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

As far as women leaping to condemn each other...The grass is always greener on your side of the fence even if it's only an imagined oasis for someone with a desert in their soul.

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Wow! That was profound! I love the image that provokes. PB684

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<BLUSH!> Thanks! I was trying to get my point across politely and I'm glad I've do so!

[MissShopaholic]

So many questions... which one to answer first? 

Well, I think Sam wasn't as unfortunate as the other men because what happened to them (if i remember correctly) was natural/accidental.  In Sam's case, he was poisoned by the hand of another.  After all, she was able to save him, right? But this scenario reminded me of the movie practical magic. I'm sure, as stated by grace, his fate will probably come later in life if unless the deaths of men weren't just coincidently happen to be accidents.

I see how Grace has embraced her witchcraft beliefs through the whole "new age" lifestyle.  To Connie, she saw her mother as out of touch/different/weird.  I can't really pinpoint Connie's approach or style but i like how Grace tells her that she doesn't need the book which allows Connie to experiment a little bit to find her own method.

I think now that Connie has discovered this fate, she can relate more to her mother and be mentored by her as well.

A second book about connie experiemnting, facing sam's tragedy would probably interest me further.

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rkubie wrote:

What an exciting week for revelations! Thanks to all who have so patiently waited through the holidays for our next chapters!

Connie not only comes into her own with her "research" coming to fruition, but also recognizes her own powers and recognizes her own family of women, whose "first names traced a lineage that was undeniable."

If Connie now sees that Grace has these significant and ancient powers, but just wrapped up in the language and style of her time, then, what would Connie's language and style be? How can she "come into her own" as a witch as well? Has she done this yet?

Is Sam one of the "unfortunate" men of this line? Is Grace right? What do you supposed has "cursed" them? What are his "fitts?" What do you predict for Sam? (Of course, for those who haven't read ahead yet!)

What is "practicing" with Key and Bible?

What is the burnt mark on the door?

Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?

What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him? 

Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest? 

How are the revelations of these chapters changing Connie? Has her relationship with her mother changed now?

I'm really looking forward to hearing the questions and comments on this section! I'm impressed at how many have made excellent predictions about some of our twists and turns from early on!

Rachel

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[Jennd1]

Connie definetly comes into her own in this section and the pieces of the puzzle begin to fit together.  I think Connie and Sam are a good match and hope they find a way to get away from the curse.  Connie's mother has used her talents in her own way as connie will.  Perhaps she can use them to continue to explore the history of witches in American history.  As for looking for a book with no title no date etc. Connie sets herself up to find the proverial needle in a haystack.

[nicole21WA]

Connie is really starting to annoy me.  I still love the book, but I just want to shake Connie and tell her to stop procrastinating!  Chapter 17 is labeled as "Mid-July" and this is when she discovers that the physick book is at Harvard, but it's not until chapter 20 "Late August" that she even gets around to going to Harvard's library.  Seriously?  I know there was Sam's accident to deal with, but that didn't happen until "Early August" so she had plenty of time before that happened.  If she'd made some progress on the house in that time, I'd forgive her, but she apparently didn't do much on the house either!  

[Bonnie824]

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maude40 wrote:
I loved this indicator of passing seasons on page 238, "She could tell that the summer was nearing it's end; this sunbeam used to fall across her waist when she awoke in Granna's four -poster bed, but it had been making it's way upward over the passing weeks, crossing the threshold of her chin around the end of July." Yvonne

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Great catch Yvonne. Connie is more and more becoming aware of nature and herself, and less involved in only her intellect.

[Shadowwolf36]

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LoBugs wrote:

Something that struck me in this section of the reading is that no matter which generation you are in the mother's never come right out and tell the daughter's that they in fact are witches. They very carefully talk all around the subject without ever saying the actual words. I became very aware of it when Connie and Grace are talking about it on the phone. It was like Grace could not get off the phone fast enough. Almost like she was afraid she would spill the beans.  It made me wonder if they can't because of an ill effect it could cause to themself or to the daughters, or if it is as simple as it became taboo due to it's history? Maybe it's even more than all that, what if we all have the power to some exstent but we only gain the use of the power through self awareness of it's exsistence!

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I have not read ahead yet so someone may have addressed this but....I think one of the reasons that they never said the actual words was because they didn't really consider themselves "Witches".  They were healers. They had special abilities to use the earth and what it offered to help others. They may realize that they had other abilities but with so much ill will about witchcraft, they would never even think of speaking the words aloud....as for Grace, I think that she felt her pragmatic daughter need to find out for herself (thus the reason to send her to the house in the first place). Connie was often reluctant and "eye rolling" about her mother's "weirdness" as a child and teen. Coming right out and telling her might have pushed her away from even learning about witchcraft as she did doing her grad studies...

[retromom]

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DSaff wrote:

While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section.

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I had never made the connection between the men, their deaths and a daughter. I didn't pay much attention to the fact they each had one daughter. I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out. I wonder if that is why there is the romantic storyline in the book. It's all starting to make sense now.

[gl]

I loved the last part of the book!  The decision to have the Receipt book be in the Radcliffe library was brilliant - and explained why Chilton after years of searching in the Harvard libraries still didn't find the book.  It never occurred to him that the school would file it under the "Women's section" both topically and literally.  

I am very much hoping that Sam isn't one of the unfortunate men - cursed when they love a woman from Deliverance's line.  I'm hoping that the fits are a result of Chilton's actions - poisoning? as opposed to some curse or sacrifice that the women's power/magic demands.

I love love that Connie is persistent and resourceful enough to find this book without a title, author, publication date.  The search for the book was so well done!! 

GL

[ClaudiaLuce]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

This scene reminded me of one very similar in a book titled Like Water for Chocolate.  Some remarkabley magical things go on in this woman's kitchen too.  And there too the imagery is so good you can see those sparks fly just like in Granna's kitchen.

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pen21 wrote:

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aprilh wrote:

The scene at Granna's house when Connie is using the sieve and scissors to get answers to her questions was extremely powerful. Katherine Howe did such a wonderful job describing it, that I could see every detail clearly in my mind's eye: from the dent made in the cabinet, the scissors sunk into the jamb of the screen door, down to the chipped lime green paint of the colander! So far my favorite scene in the book!

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I agree. The description was beautiful and was such a growing experience for Connie.

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I had not thought about how magical Like Water for Chocolate was and how similar the kitchen scenes were in the magical sense until you brought that up!  Thank you for reminding me of that wonderful book!

[ilenekm]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

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Zeal wrote:

One of the most powerful passages in these chapters, I found on pg. 300.  I was horrified by the humiliation that the midwives put Deliverance through during their examination.  I could feel her embarrassment, shame, and pain.  Deliverance thinks, "Tis forever women leaping to condemn each other, she reflected...Women posed dangers to one another that they somehow did not pose to men. 

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I've read that this type of "examination" was common practice in the Middle Ages (and perhaps further forward), though usually performed by nuns. It was most often to check for virginity in the event of a royal/high profile marriage, for those entering the cloister or the refute charges of fornication. I'm not sure if it had a specific name (other than degrading).

Those women are lucky that Deliverance only uses her powers for good.

As far as women leaping to condemn each other...The grass is always greener on your side of the fence even if it's only an imagined oasis for someone with a desert in their soul.

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We were in Williamsburg VA a couple of months ago and sat in on a reenactment of a witch trial. Many of the things discussed in the book regarding Deliverance were in the trial also. In this trial, one of the witnesses testified that she had a witches' teat, just like in the book.  The other thing that I remembered is that they asked the women on trial to recite the Lords Prayer. Failure to do so in its entirety was proof that she was a witch.

[USwede16]

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Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest? 

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Obviously looking for a book that you have no information about seems like an impossible task. Without any information to look it up by it can remain hidden an go unnoticed for huge amounts of time. I believe that this is significant because during the times in which the book was "written" was a period of mass hysteria regarding witchcraft. Anyone who could be considered a "witch" would want to go undetected. For this reason, it is significant that the book has no known data by which it can be tracked. If data about its origin, such as author or title, could enable someone to be able to find the history of the book.

While Connie was able to find the book, it was only possible because she knew about its history. However, had she found the book first, the history behind would most likely have remained a mystery.

[Jo6353]

What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him? 

I haven't trusted Chilton from the beginning when he asked his final question for her exam and then told her to come with something unique for her dissertation. He seemed to be leading her to something from that point on. Then he got really nasty with her when she didn't move fast enough for him. He reminded me of a pouty child!

I think Connie respects & trusts him for the academic reputation that he has but I think his alchemy obsession is giving her doubts.  Jo

[PB684]

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Carmenere_lady wrote:

This scene reminded me of one very similar in a book titled Like Water for Chocolate.  Some remarkabley magical things go on in this woman's kitchen too.  And there too the imagery is so good you can see those sparks fly just like in Granna's kitchen.

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pen21 wrote:

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aprilh wrote:

The scene at Granna's house when Connie is using the sieve and scissors to get answers to her questions was extremely powerful. Katherine Howe did such a wonderful job describing it, that I could see every detail clearly in my mind's eye: from the dent made in the cabinet, the scissors sunk into the jamb of the screen door, down to the chipped lime green paint of the colander! So far my favorite scene in the book!

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I agree. The description was beautiful and was such a growing experience for Connie.

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Carmenere_lady,

Thanks for mentioning Like Water For Chocolate. I just checked out the synopsis on BN.com and will definitely read it! It also reminded me of Chocolat...what is it about chocolate and magic? Chocolate was even mentioned in Harry Potter as a remedy for despair.

PB684

[Zeal]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

11. & 12. Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?

Women were not allowed to voice opinion in scientific thought throughout the dark ages. As with Deliverance, those with ability, understanding or voice were often condemned. Professor Chilton doesn't mind if Connie is the one to make the discovery because he knows she holds the key. She holds the key wholly because she is a woman. This is the reason the Philosopher's Stone has not been discovered before. Because no merit was placed in the scientific thoughts of women. Connie finds the book based on this principle.

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I wanted to clarify this part. I think that the incantation for the Philosopher's Stone can only be done by a woman. Perhaps only by a woman from Deliverance's line.  That's why Chilton needs Connie.

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Interesting...Thank you!

[Fond_of_Books]

Part II really picks up in pace and it really surprised me. I didn't think there would be any real magic going on, especially not with Connie. I really wonder why Grace never told Connie about the magical ability in their family. Did anyone before Connie ever look for the book? The book sounds fascinating.

Chilton is really creepy. Obviously he doesn't know much about witchcraft when he thinks he can use the book to make the Philosopher's Stone. Not anyone can do magic as Connie discovered when Sam tried the same spell on the plant. I was wondering about when Connie got the book. We didn't get to read about her actually finding it. If it was a book in the special collections they surely didn't let her check it out. Did she just sneak it out in her bag? I wonder if anyone ever looked at the book while it was in any of the libraries.

I am a little suspicious about Sam's fits/illness and that the doctors can't find an explanation. We he said the water tasted strangely I immediately thought that someone had poisoned it, but then the doctors explained the metallic taste as related to the seizures. Hmmm.

I've read the rest of the book already. I wish we could discuss it now. The ending is so interesting.

[Jo6353]

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When the righteousness becomes self-righteousness, God is no longer involved. 

We all have a right to our beliefs, I think it's all too often HOW we defend those beliefs that breaks God's heart.

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Ponie,

Great words of wisdom!

Jo

[julyso]

I wondered about that also. There is no way they would have let her have that book.

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

I wonder how Connie got the book out of the library. I assume that they would not lend rare old books out for take home.