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Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 01:31 AM
What an exciting week for revelations! Thanks to all who have so patiently waited through the holidays for our next chapters!
Connie not only comes into her own with her "research" coming to fruition, but also recognizes her own powers and recognizes her own family of women, whose "first names traced a lineage that was undeniable."
If Connie now sees that Grace has these significant and ancient powers, but just wrapped up in the language and style of her time, then, what would Connie's language and style be? How can she "come into her own" as a witch as well? Has she done this yet?
Is Sam one of the "unfortunate" men of this line? Is Grace right? What do you supposed has "cursed" them? What are his "fitts?" What do you predict for Sam? (Of course, for those who haven't read ahead yet!)
What is "practicing" with Key and Bible?
What is the burnt mark on the door?
Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?
What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him?
Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest?
How are the revelations of these chapters changing Connie? Has her relationship with her mother changed now?
I'm really looking forward to hearing the questions and comments on this section! I'm impressed at how many have made excellent predictions about some of our twists and turns from early on!
Rachel
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 05:58 AM
rkubie wrote:Connie not only comes into her own with her "research" coming to fruition, but also recognizes her own powers and recognizes her own family of women, whose "first names traced a lineage that was undeniable."
It is in Chapter 15 that Connie finally gets it! On page 215 she learns that she has the talent and with words such as staggered, groping, whimper and horrified we see how Connie's emotions are running the gamete. Then she sees all the women who came before her in beautiful imagery.
If Connie now sees that Grace has these significant and ancient powers, but just wrapped up in the language and style of her time, then, what would Connie's language and style be? How can she "come into her own" as a witch as well? Has she done this yet?
I think Connie's language and style handling her "powers" will lean towards the academic. I don't see her forsaking all she has gained through education and immerse herself in new age methodology like Grace has done. I think Connie will try to see the logic, the why these powers exist and respect them.
Is Sam one of the "unfortunate" men of this line? Is Grace right? What do you supposed has "cursed" them? What are his "fitts?" What do you predict for Sam? (Of course, for those who haven't read ahead yet!)
Sam's fall didn't surprise me, his illness did. I think he is being used as a catalyst to get Connie off her duff and find the information she needs to complete her course work. Is this the hand of Chilton in a benign and gentle yet frightful way? If so, I may need to rethink Chilton.
What is "practicing" with Key and Bible?
I think this would be the way women would attempt to predict the future. I also believe because the key apparently did not fall out of the bible, Deliverance would be ok. I feel this is telling the reader that Deliverance won't become a victim of the witch trials.
What is the burnt mark on the door?
On this, I'm still as naive as Connie and the ozone layer.
Why does Chilton say he's "not a sexist?" How does this lead Connie to find the book?
What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him?
There may be more to Chilton than I first thought. Could he be working in tandem with Grace? I'm in chapter 21 now and I still don't see Connie trusting Chilton as yet.
Connie has been looking for a book with no title, no publication date, and no author. What does this say about her quest?
She is very deligent and focused. She takes on nearly impossible tasks to reach her goal.
How are the revelations of these chapters changing Connie? Has her relationship with her mother changed now?
It is within these chapters that I found this story to be a coming of age novel. Perhaps I'm a little late coming to the realization of that but Connie is finding out who she is and what she can do. She's gaining personal strength through trials and tribulations of life. Strength that one can not find in academia alone.
I'm really looking forward to hearing the questions and comments on this section! I'm impressed at how many have made excellent predictions about some of our twists and turns from early on!
I found Grace to be a very wise woman who wants to share her knowledge with Connie but wants her to grow into into. She doesn't bluntly come out and tell Connie about her background she lets her learn of it through knowledge gained from research, something Connie knows best.
Thank you for such terrific questions Rachel. They really make me think and express those thoughts into words. You're questions also enrich the experience of reading this novel. I would have liked to answer more but I've really got to get ready for work and no amount of magic will help me there.
Rachel
"I think of literature.....as a vast country to the far borders of which I am journeying but will never reach."
The Uncommon Reader
"You've been running around naked in the stacks again, haven't you?"
"Um, maybe."
The Time Traveler's Wife
It is with books as with men; a very small number play a great part.
Voltaire
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 08:10 AM - edited 04-14-2009 08:15 AM
It has been an exciting week! I haven't finished the book yet and am excited and sad to see the last section come. This has been an amazing book discussion! Rachel, your questions have been excellent throughout the discussion! Thank you!
While we did find out some thing this week, there are still many questions. My first deals with Sam. Every man who has loved one of these powerful men has met a tragic end. But, before their death, there was a daughter. My speculative question is, is Connie pregnant? Sam and Connie bonded quickly, like kindred spirits, and I think their feelings run deep. He has been severely attacked and she is the only one who can help, so could a little one be on the way? I hope that is answered in the last section.
Connie as a witch - I don't think Connie has truly come into her own yet, but I have no doubt that she will. She has spent some time studying, and as we leave her, she is headed for the hospital with "tools" to help Sam. I can't believe that she will be too late, but the rest of the book remains to be read. I think Connie will find her healing powers and use them somehow for good. I also think her relationship with her mother will become stronger and blossom into something really wonderful. I now believe that Grace sent the sign on the door to protect her daughter and that Connie is going to figure that out. (pg. 292 "I'll tell you this much," Grace said. "No one - and I mean no one - wants to keep you safe more than I do.")
Key and Bible is a practice used to discover the answer to a "yes or no" question. The key is placed in the Bible, the question asked, and if the Bible turns over and the key falls out, the answer is yes. Connie used the "sieve and scissors" method to find her answer. I found this whole section fascinating.
Chilton - I still really dislike and distrust this man. His appearance in the library was chilling as well as fortuitous. Without his, "I'm not a sexist." remark, Connie wouldn't have thought to look for the book at Radcliffe. He actually helped her find the book. Connie's search had been hampered by the thought that the book actually had a title when she should have been looking for a journal type book. Now we will see what she does with her new found knowledge.
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 08:14 AM
You make some good points about Chilton, Lynda. I may have to rethink him as well. It is hard to picture him working with Grace, but it is worth considering.
Carmenere_lady wrote:
Is Sam one of the "unfortunate" men of this line? Is Grace right? What do you supposed has "cursed" them? What are his "fitts?" What do you predict for Sam? (Of course, for those who haven't read ahead yet!)
Sam's fall didn't surprise me, his illness did. I think he is being used as a catalyst to get Connie off her duff and find the information she needs to complete her course work. Is this the hand of Chilton in a benign and gentle yet frightful way? If so, I may need to rethink Chilton.
What are your feelings about Chilton now? Does Connie trust him?
There may be more to Chilton than I first thought. Could he be working in tandem with Grace? I'm in chapter 21 now and I still don't see Connie trusting Chilton as yet.
"A book is like a garden carried in the pocket." Chinese Proverb
My blog: http://bookworm56.blogspot.com
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 08:29 AM
It was satisfying to see Connie finally realize that Deliverance was more than just a name on a piece of paper. Making the family connection - that we as readers all knew was there - was a bit shocking to her at first; however, as she 'sees' her history unfold before her eyes, she comes to accept it.
Connie is an academic. She will use whatever knowledge she gains in her academic pursuits - not using her power to obtain any of it. She will respect it. I think she is on her way to accepting.
Yes, I believe that Sam will be one of the 'unfortunate' men in this line of women; however, is this 'accident' his end? I say not unless Connie is pregnant of which there is no indication. Will he have an 'end' or will Connie be able to logically approach things and change their history? Will he succumb to this 'end' if they never marry? These are questions that run through my head.
Sams fits are seizures - what is causing them?? I do not believe that they are natural and that there is some outside cause for them. Will Sam live or die at this time? I refer back to my thoughts in the previous paragraph.
I think that 'practicing' with the Key and Bible is some form of divination.
I still believe that the burnt symbol on the door is a sign of protection.
Chilton indicates that he is not a 'sexist' but, he is as we see with all the 'my girl' comments. Connie realizes that he is and that it would be beneath him to look outside of the male-domain to search for the book. So, she does and finds the book.
I still don't trust Chilton and I believe that Connie is starting to believe that he is up to no good and that he is using her for his own purposes. She does not trust him.
Connie's quest for the book could be futile, difficult at best - no title, no publication date and no author. Very difficult indeed. Is there some outside force helping her to find the book or is she just very good at research?
Connie is becoming a bit more open minded and confident. She is developing a new found respect for Grace.
CathyB
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 09:48 AM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 09:53 AM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 09:56 AM
I don't think Connie has come into her own as a witch yet. I think this will happen when Connie really starts to grasp and accept the connection between herself and the earlier witches.
At this point, I predicted that Sam would die or be killed, as the other significant men in these womens lives all died. I automatically assumed the "fitts" were seizures. I think the "curse" is actually a curse on the part of the women in this line. They must be somewhat isolated from society, so they all lose the men in their lives.
I have already read ahead, but at this point in the book, I was still wondering if the burnt mark on the door was to protect Connie, to protect others against her (as a witch), or a curse against her. I really wasn't sure at this point what it was. If I was Connie, it would have made me feel uneasy in the house until I knew what it was.
I liked Chilton less and less as I progressed with this book. I felt like he was being defensive when he said that he wasn't sexist because he really knew that he was.
As for the book with no title, no publication date, and no author, I would personally believe that it could probably never be found. This says to me that her quest is anything from very difficult to impossible.
I think Connie's relationship with her mother is improving at this point, as she begins to form a connection with her ancestry.
I have already finished the book, so I am trying to be very careful to only say how I felt at this point in the book. I really wanted to stay with the reading schedule, but couldn't help myself. This was such a great book!
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 09:57 AM
I think Connie will see her powers from an academic standpoint. She will see the powers logically and learn to respect her new found ablities. On page 215 is when Connie realizes that she does have some sort of powers, "a suble bluish flow glow coalesced in a swirling bubble between her out stretched fingers" this is the beginning.
Sam becoming ill was a real surprise. When he fell it was due to his negligence and being overworked perhaps. I think Sam was perhaps posioned to get Connie to use her powers. I agree with another reader it was a matter of time before Connie's powers would be tested. This is why Sam was used as catlalyst to prove wheather she had her family genes to be a witch.
The practicing bible and key , I think women used this back then to practice on predicting the future and helping to heal the sick if they could.
I think the burnt mark on the door might have been a sign that a witch lived there. The fact that it showed up later could be that it appeared after another witch moved in. I am just guessing at this point.
I think Chilton says he not a sexist to prevent Connie from finding out his real reason for looking for the book.
I didn't like Chilton after he started taunted Connie to find the book that he needed to further his career. At this point I don't blame Connie for not trusting him. He has been using her to get his hands on the book.
Connie is searching for something she might not find but she is determined not to be out done. As she keeps looking she will eventually find what she is looking for with little hints from Chilton.
I think her relationship with her mother has changed a lot. After her experience with her power she understands her mother better. She is beginning to realize what her mother has been trying to tell her in the beginning. I think that is why she was sent to the house to find her powers in witchcraft on her own.
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 10:06 AM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 10:12 AM
I think that Sam is one of the unfortunate men, but I'm hoping the cycle can be broken. I believed from the first that the fitts were caused by something magical and not physical.
Practicing with the Key and the Bible were everyday divination techniques, also the sieve and the scissors that would answer yes and no questions sort of like the precursor to the black eight ball and the Ouija Board.
It became clear to me on page 292 where during their phone conversation after Connie discovers her heritage Grace says " No one and I mean no one wants to keep you safe more than I do." that Grace was the one to burn the symbol into the door.
While Chilton had Connie trapped in the library he was talking about the significance of the philosopher's stone and how all the educated and knowledgeable men all throughout the years never once considered that the catalyst could be a practicer of "vernacular magic" or everyday magic and those who would practice that would be women. So in essence he's telling Connie that he thinks that the book he's been herding Connie to find is the answer to finding the philosopher's stone and because it's been written by women throughout the ages that he's not a sexist. (Yeah right). And after leaving the library Connie realizes that books written by women would never have been housed in the tombs of Harvard, but it's sister college.
I still think that the earth should open up and swallow Chilton whole, I think he's evil I have from the beginning and all he does is keep confirming my suspicions. I think that Connie is starting to feel that something is definitely off w/Chilton and has been since her talk w/ Janine.
The more Connie searches for the Almanak, recipe, receipt book, Physick book the historian in her comes out more and more and I think that is what finally led her to the discovery, that and Chilton's sexist speech.
I think Connie's rediscovering of herself in these chapters are helping her define her relationship with Grace more and her understanding of Grace as well. And as I always said I don't think there is or ever has been anything wrong with the relationship between Connie and Grace, but I do think it's deepening.
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 10:16 AM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 10:36 AM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 10:47 AM
Something that struck me in this section of the reading is that no matter which generation you are in the mother's never come right out and tell the daughter's that they in fact are witches. They very carefully talk all around the subject without ever saying the actual words. I became very aware of it when Connie and Grace are talking about it on the phone. It was like Grace could not get off the phone fast enough. Almost like she was afraid she would spill the beans. It made me wonder if they can't because of an ill effect it could cause to themself or to the daughters, or if it is as simple as it became taboo due to it's history? Maybe it's even more than all that, what if we all have the power to some exstent but we only gain the use of the power through self awareness of it's exsistence! ![]()
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 11:02 AM
maude40 wrote:
I can't imagine how the women and children got through the times in Salem during the witch trials. Pages 294-302 where Deliverance is jailed with 4 year old Dorcas Good and Goody Osborne was a very depressing section. You could almost feel the filth and the rats and the dampness and dank atmosphere they were forced to live in. I thought Ms. Howe wrote a vivid description of how conditions probably were during this horrilbe incident in history. Yvonne
Oh Yvonne, Dorcas just broke my heart and Deliverance became more important a character when she constantly tried to ease her suffering. The only evil monsters of the time where the accusers and the judges and jury.
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 11:36 AM
LoBugs wrote:Something that struck me in this section of the reading is that no matter which generation you are in the mother's never come right out and tell the daughter's that they in fact are witches. They very carefully talk all around the subject without ever saying the actual words. I became very aware of it when Connie and Grace are talking about it on the phone. It was like Grace could not get off the phone fast enough. Almost like she was afraid she would spill the beans. It made me wonder if they can't because of an ill effect it could cause to themself or to the daughters, or if it is as simple as it became taboo due to it's history? Maybe it's even more than all that, what if we all have the power to some exstent but we only gain the use of the power through self awareness of it's exsistence!
LoBugs..or maybe it is responsible parenting!! Mothers (or fathers) should not tell their children WHAT to think but help them learn HOW to think...not tell them the answers outright but encourage and guide them to their own answers in their own time. If someone (especially a parent) tells you what you are or should be or should do then it is never really yours, 100% chosen by you. And then there is that dynamic of rejecting (rebelling against) the very thing you yourself WOULD have chosen (accepted as your own, gone for, etc) but now can't or don't because someone else told you you should or had to.
You see a lot of this in 2 yr olds as well as adolescents! A fun and funny example: It's time for bed and Mommy tells her 2 yr old to go put on her red pajamas. Now the 2 yr old was heading for the red PJs but now, because mommy said so, making the red PJs mommy's idea and not hers, she can't! Terrible 2s? No, it's the whole separation and individuation thing; becoming your own person. With adolescents as well it seems they DO everything you tell them NOT to or NOT do what you tell them to do, especially (your opinion of)what's best for them. The more hmmmm-ing you do the better...those outright commands, demands and statements never go well with adolescents - or others for that matter! It has to be their own path, chosen by them, and IT IS hard to watch at times.
There was a social worker who really from early on wanted to become a doctor and didn't because her parents and the rest of the family said they thought she SHOULD be a doctor. She thought if she became a doctor it would be because they told her to be a doctor, and therefore not her choice. After a few years of therapy she chose to enter medical school to become a doctor. She told her parents, " I am going to be a doctor even though you want me to be one." It's how she owned it as her own even though it was what they also wanted for her.
It's dicey being a responsible parent sometimes! I am thinking back now over my harsh judgement of Grace with Connie. Hmmmm...I'm now thinking Grace knew more than I gave her credit for in the parenting department!
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 11:46 AM
I'm calmly reading this amazing story and connecting Connie to Deliverance when I finally realize that Sam is a connection to the girls who were having "fits". I couldn't believe that it took me so long to make that connection.
I'm hoping that Sam will not be another unfortunate male in this family's history. I'm thinking that Connie's "spell" will be strong and save him.
The sign on Connie's door is for her protection, not her danger; and her mother is the one who is responsible for it, I believe. ~ But as I read the comments, I'm wondering if there is more to Chilton than I've been willing to accept and that he is involved in a positive way with the sign.
I'm ready to finish the story.
~~ Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.
~~ Be careful reading health books. You may die of a misprint. Mark Twain
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 12:02 PM
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 12:07 PM
These chapters were very interesting! I had to make myself stop at chapter 21!!
I do not believe that Connie has come into her own just yet. Everything is still so very new to her and there are still many questions that remain unanswered!
It does seem as if Sam is one of the unfortunate men in this line. Someone could be using him to thwart Connie's research or they could be using him to urge her forward in the interest of saving his life. It looks like the "fitts" of Sam's are seizures. As for my predictions, I am hoping that things will turn out differently for Connie and Sam! I hope that Connie can find a way to stop the "curse" that seems to fall upon all of the men in the line.
Book and Key is a way for the women to ask yes/no questions about the future.
The burnt mark on the door is a symbol meant to protect Connie.
I do not trust Chilton and I think that at this point Connie does not trust him.
Re: Part 11, Chapters 15 - 21
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04-14-2009 12:08 PM