Part I, Chapters 7 - 14-MY THOUGHTS ON CHAPTER 8

[TRJ4SQ]

"Just the chicken?" Too funny!! What's not funny is that Connie has said way too much. I still can't believe she isn't picking up on his vibes....Eyes gleaming with cold hard light and a Cheshire cat grin? The way she describes him even sounds like a predator.

The bathroom scene didn't seem like it fit into the story well. I may have missed something. Any thoughts on this?

[TRJ4SQ]

It looks like Connie is having trouble with thoughts of giving up the house. I can't say that I blame her as I bought my grandmother's house to keep it in the family. I was the same

way about changing anything but I really think Connie needs to give the place a good scrubbing if she is to stay there. The mushrooms must go!

Professor Manning gets more & more suspicious. I'm amazed that Connie can't see that he has been pushing her and is now dangling the carrot of introduction just to pump her for more information.

Wonders of the Invisible World by Cotton Mather..Interesting. Full text available on Google Books...Cool!

http://books.google.com/books?id=1loToSsb-ecC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22wonders+of+the+invisible+wor...

Malleus Maleficarum to look up. Full text available but it's in Latin...Drat! Looks scary though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gREOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22malleus+maleficarum%22&lr=&a...

[TRJ4SQ]

CHAPTER #10-

What to make of the dream of the woman in the hospital gown in the snow with snakes?

The description of Salem being turned into a tourist zoo is quite disturbing. We have been thinking about a vacation and this was one of the locations we were considering because of the history, old cemeteries & atmosphere. Does anyone know if this is really how it is?

So Connie is finally learning to pick up people's vibes. Good ones from Sam & bad ones from the shop keeper lady. Wonder if she'll be seeing auras before too long?

Sunset in the bell tower with a lingering kiss. What a way to celebrate the summer solstice! And so the chapter starts with a nightmare & ends with a dream!

INTERLUDE-

As I expected to find, Mercy has studied the physick as well. She is brave to petition the court to clear her mother's name but naive to believe there overly righteous men will do anything to admit they have been wrong. Especially with Saltonstall as the examiner. Her misconception realized, the painting eyes she so admired becomes flat and cold. I suppose we can assume the outcome.

Could the captain's ledger found in grandma's house be that Mercy's seafaring husband?

[TRJ4SQ]

Another clue to the lineage of daughters & deaths. All power exacts it's price.

Why does Prudence specifically mention in her dairy that the dog stayed in the bed. Too weird but it must mean something.

The diary entry about the almanak stands out like a sore thumb to me. I think we will soon find that this is actually the physick book but why would she sell it?

[TRJ4SQ]

CHAPTER #12-

Are Connie & Grace finally connecting? It's right that Grace should show concern for he way the Professor is treating Connie. Another example of the caste differences. Connie feels like she has to take his abuse to keep her sponsorship. Especially now that he is opting for threats instead of dangling carrots.

The mandala on the door is very interesting but I had a hard time imagining it from the description. I wish that it had been clearer. The cross hatches caught my attention the most because I have an old print of a nun & the frame has hand made crosshatches on all sides. No matter how much it scared Connie & her friends, I believe it to be a symbol for protection.

Obviously the markings were done by magical means but how so? Possible theories all long shots and all farfetched:

1. Grace manifested it somehow because she was wary of Professor Chilton and Connie‘s safety.

2. It was always there on the front door and just not visible until now.

3. Connie's ancestors reaching out from the grave?

INTERLUDE:

At last, confirmation that the almanak mentioned in the dairy is Deliverance's book. That bit of news comes with the not so surprising revelation that the Milk Street house fits into Deliverance's family picture. Now to find out how it came to be in Grandma Sophie's hands. Easy enough to check the property title records. Wonder if Connie will figure that

out.

Prudence is quite bold indeed., to walk into a bar for a drink and a smoke. Evidentially she has taken up some of the physick practice but something is amiss here. If she has nothing but resentment for the Deliverance's book then where did she learn her trade? Plus, how will it be carried on if she sold the book?

What of the book buyer, Mr. Hooper with a big fine house on the hill. Is he the original Tetragrammaton fence post owner? If so, what scared him enough to carve the petroglyph?

[TRJ4SQ]

Well, well, finally the explanation as to why Manning is pushing Connie so hard. You would think as a scholar, he would be smart enough to not put himself out on a limb by proposing something he couldn't prove. The author delves into a deeply interesting aspect of alchemy here and it really is food for thought.

For more exploration see Mutus Liber which is an archaic picture book which supposedly outlines the recipe for the Philosopher's Stone. I didn't find the book but there examples of prints on Amazon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutus_Liber

Philosopher's Stone info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophers_Stone

[TRJ4SQ]

It looks as if Connie might have a way with plants as well.

Those interested in the interpretation of AGLA can find a good explanation on Wiki..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGLA

Looking forward to The Sieve & Scissors

[fordmg]

Chris227  This is a great observation.  I also don't think Grace is such a bad person.  She really cares about Connie.

MG

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chris227 wrote:

I made a note that Grace said this as well.  My feeling is that Grace doesn't understand Connie's fascination with academics.  I believe Grace knows of the family's heritage and has embraced it in her own way.  She just reads auras and things like that instead of mixing up healing potions.  I think that this comment is just meant to nudge Connie a little more of looking at herself and her surroundings so that she can realize who she realize who she really is and what her family members were.  To me Grace means no harm.  Grace knows that Connie would think she was absolutely crazy if she started telling her about witches so she sent her to Granna's house knowing that Connie, who is so immersed in research, will search and find the truth for herself.

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maude40 wrote:
At the end of chapter 9 Connie is talking to Grace again. Grace says,"All I'm saying is that it couldn't hurt to spend a little time looking into yourself and see what's going on in there. You are a special, remarkable person, Connie, whether you find the book or not." Grace negates Connie's academic achievements  and seems to be pushing her in some other direction. Most mothers would be delighted to have their daughter working on her dissertation at Harvard but Grace knows something that we don't about the house and it's past. I think she's much more astute than we give credit for. Yvonne

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[dhaupt]

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JerseyAngel wrote:
I have to say I am enjoying the relationship between Sam & Connie. Sam seems to balance her out. She see things from the academic & practical point of view where Sam seems more open to other possibilities. When they go into the store is a good example. She's quick to roll her eyes & brush things off where Sam is more open. I think this will help Connie with her research as well as personally. I also have to say I loved their first kiss! Sam could have easily just kissed her where they were but instead he wanted to take her somewhere special. I think that definately shows a romantic side (I'm only on chapter 11 so not sure what is to follow just yet).

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I so agree with you on the relationship between Sam and Connie sort of ying and yang.

[fordmg]

Thanks for your insite pedsphleb. 

I think the posters are a little tough on Chilton.  I don't think he is ment to be a likable person, but he is acting like an academic advisor.  There is a lot of pressure in acadamia.   The candadate has deadlines for finishing their thesis work, and the supporting professor is to pick winners, not candadates who never finish. 

 MG

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pedsphleb wrote:

I am actually not surprised by Chilton's behavior when Connie notes that the trail of the "receipt" book has gone cold; academia breeds some pretty wierd behavior, especially if someone has already been acclaimed for previous work because the pressure to do ever better increases.  No one really rests on his/her laurels until retirement and even then some continue to work ceaselessly.  Academics become very single minded in the pursuit of a singluar discovery, as Janine hints at in her meeting with Connie, and Chilton has probably become so obsessed with his alchemical theory that he sees Connie as his only way to prove it.  That doesn't make him right, just maniacally obsessed.  His whole threatening to have Connie's funding pulled is just the ego talking; although 1991 is a little early for grad student unions, Connie could appeal some really insane threat like that through the college (and for all the "my girl" comments he makes, this is pre-Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas and sexual harassment training has yet to debut on college campuses).

With all the privileged information the reader receives regarding Deliverance, Mercy, and Prudence through the Interludes, Connie seems very dense for a graduate student of history at Harvard University.  IMO, Connie should have immediately noticed Prudence's mention of an "almanack" - particularly a mention that causes Mercy to become upset.  I think by the end of this section I think it's clear that this line of women does posess a special talent, documented and enhanced by a written journal of information to be passed down from mother to daughter.  I think it is also clear (from the information we are given in the Interlude) that Prudence recognizes the pattern of her own family history and sacrifices what she sees as the source of the family power; however, in her journal she notes that Patty has gone to aid a woman with the delivery of a child so while Prudence sells the book she discounts the orally transmitted information already given to Patty.

I'm going to have to switch grears here and note that I think Sam's appearance is predictable; however, it is nice that he is not "conventional" in the sense of a love-interest.

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rkubie wrote:

This section opens with Connie telling Chilton of her source, and by the end of it, we know that Chilton is furious with Connie for not finding the "receipt" book. Have your feelings for Chilton changed?

What is the "receipt" book? How has it been used by this line of women? What does it mean to Prudence? 

Connie's research turns up Prudence's journal to give us another glimpse into the lives of Mercy, Prudence, and Patty. Do you have a sense of what Prudence was like?

How close is Connie's understanding of these women's lives, compared to our own? How does it feel to have more information than Connie does?

What is the symbol on the front door, and how do you believe it got there? (This question is for those who haven't read past chapter 14!)

Connie and Sam's relationship continues to grow. How is Sam helping Connie's research? Is Sam a romantic?

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[pen21]

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chris227 wrote:

I made a note that Grace said this as well.  My feeling is that Grace doesn't understand Connie's fascination with academics.  I believe Grace knows of the family's heritage and has embraced it in her own way.  She just reads auras and things like that instead of mixing up healing potions.  I think that this comment is just meant to nudge Connie a little more of looking at herself and her surroundings so that she can realize who she realize who she really is and what her family members were.  To me Grace means no harm.  Grace knows that Connie would think she was absolutely crazy if she started telling her about witches so she sent her to Granna's house knowing that Connie, who is so immersed in research, will search and find the truth for herself.

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maude40 wrote:
At the end of chapter 9 Connie is talking to Grace again. Grace says,"All I'm saying is that it couldn't hurt to spend a little time looking into yourself and see what's going on in there. You are a special, remarkable person, Connie, whether you find the book or not." Grace negates Connie's academic achievements  and seems to be pushing her in some other direction. Most mothers would be delighted to have their daughter working on her dissertation at Harvard but Grace knows something that we don't about the house and it's past. I think she's much more astute than we give credit for. Yvonne

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I agree with both of you. I have felt that Grace sent Connie there for a purpose. She needs to learn about her history to know herself. I am looking forward to finding out more about what Connie discovers. I do feel there must be a link with  Deliverance Dane.

[Skelly7645]

I have not had time to read all the posts to this thread yet.  I will state my observations. Please understand that some may have already been posted in earlier messages:

I still really enjoy this book and find it extremely difficult to not read into the next section.  I would like to go to some of the other available threads, but have stopped since I do not want to read any spoilers.  My comments, in no special order:

Connie- I believe that her visions are becoming more pronounced, both into the past and the past, and that she is beginning to pay more attention to these feelings that she gets.

Corn husk doll- Since this is my first reading of a book about witchcraft, I am unfamiliar with its meaning. Can anyone enlighten me?

Dandelions-I assume that the dandelions sketch in Ch. 11 , and then it is smudged by a "drop from somewhere" must have symbolic meaning.  Are dandelions related to witchcraft in any way? Then, in Ch. 14 the whole episode with the reading of a recipe card and the flower (a dandelion) comes to life and then dies.

Sam-I think that Sam is brought into the story as an anchor to the "normal world" for Connie.  There is a romantic interest there, yet I think it presents another challenge for Connie during this very "enlightening" summer of her life.

Arlo-Everytime Arlo goes outside, or travels out of Connie's sight I find myself  wanting to warn him to stay close. Each time I think it is a foreshadow, and then nothing comes of it.

I still really like the transitions between past and past.  I think that the journal of Prudence is just matter of fact.  She appears to go about life in a business like fashion, no emotion shown; just details of the day.

Grace and Chilton Manning obviously are driving Connie to discover herself and in Manning's case, he has plans for the receipt book, and is using her as an instrument. Connie gets her first hint that he is really "up to something" from her conversation with Janine Silva.

I hope that tonight I will have time to read all the postings.  I love other readers' imput and am azamed sometimes at the obvious symbols that I seem to miss.

I am really hoping that this author will consider more novels in her future. Katherine Howe is from an area of the country rich with colonial history.  I see many oppotunities for bestsellers, in her future!

[chris227]

I just have a few random thoughs and notes I jotted down while I was reading that I wanted to mention.  About the house:

Okay I think that the house is extremely spooky and I would not be staying there alone (or probably at all) but on page 130 it says "the dried potted plants that hung motionless, like dried spiders, in the windows" which to me just made the house sound spookier.  Now at this point Connie had been in the house for a couple of weeks, why didn't she get rid of the dead plants?  And the garden is thriving but the houseplants are dead (I know I know no water, etc. but the garden doesn't give away to reason why should aything else in the house?).

Then on page 135 Connie is again daydreaming and thinks of "Grace - or was it the woman in the portrait downstairs..."  I mean I know that there would be pictures of relatives in the house but she had mentioned before that the picture has been watching her and isn't she putting any of this together that Deliverance and the others may be distant relatives and that there's weird things going on?

And then on page 195 Connie is thinking about Arlo and thinks about how he is usually very nervous but yet seems completely content at Granna's house.  Maybe because he's familiar with it already and feels like he's "at home"?  Hmm...

[chris227]

I just thought that there was a great line on page 195:

"Mentally Connie gathered her strands of thinking into thick handfuls, trying to braid them into a coherent whole."

First the idea of going through her thoughts like a card catalogue and then this.  Love the imagery!!

[ponie]

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TRJ4SQ wrote:

It looks like Connie is having trouble with thoughts of giving up the house. I can't say that I blame her as I bought my grandmother's house to keep it in the family. I was the same

way about changing anything but I really think Connie needs to give the place a good scrubbing if she is to stay there. The mushrooms must go!

Professor Manning gets more & more suspicious. I'm amazed that Connie can't see that he has been pushing her and is now dangling the carrot of introduction just to pump her for more information.

Wonders of the Invisible World by Cotton Mather..Interesting. Full text available on Google Books...Cool!

http://books.google.com/books?id=1loToSsb-ecC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22wonders+of+the+invisible+wor...

Malleus Maleficarum to look up. Full text available but it's in Latin...Drat! Looks scary though.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gREOAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22malleus+maleficarum%22&lr=&a...

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She may NEED the mushrooms later!

Will check these other sites out and get back to you!

[ponie]

TRJ4SQ!  You are on a roll ths morning!!!  Great thoughts, further things to ponder!!!

[Fozzie]

Here are my thoughts before reading others' thoughts:

My feelings for Chilton have gone from being suspicious of him to fearing for Connie in her association with him.  Based on the information we learn from Janine, Chilton could be desperate and willing to go to greater lengths to protect himself and his interests than I had previously suspected.

I assume the receipt book contains witchcraft information.  Prudence wants to rid herself of the burdens of her mother's and grandmother's pasts. 

I think it is fun to have more information than Connie, and it also makes me cheer for her more, hoping she "catches up" with us readers.

I am completely puzzled by the symbol on the door and only know what has been said in the book.  I am not doing any research on it, just waiting to see what the book reveals.

I like Sam.  I think he and Connie have some shared interests, which draws them to each other.  I am not convinced that theirs will be a romantic relationship.  Again, I am waiting to see where the book takes that relationship and only taking what I am given, not speculating.

[ponie]

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ponie wrote:
TRJ4SQ!  You are on a roll ths morning!!!  Great thoughts, further things to ponder!!!

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a post to my own post - I can't help myself - I hope I am not committing a posting faux pas...

TRJ4SQ...good stuff...don't rest on your laurels, keep it coming!!!!!

[Fozzie]

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gl wrote:

Question - What was the corn doll that Connie found on p. 109?

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I thought it was a voodoo doll, one of those made in the likeness of a person and when a pin is stuck into it, causes some illness, injury, or bad thing to happen to the person in whose image the voodoo doll is made.

[Fozzie]

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GnANorman wrote:

How close is Connie's understanding of these women's lives, compared to our own? How does it feel to have more information than Connie does?

Aren't the flashbacks Connie's dreams?  Do we really have more information than she does?

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Now that's food for thought!  That hadn't occured to me!