Roles of Women-RESPONSES TO MODERATOR QUESTIONS

[TRJ4SQ]

We have now had a small window into the lives of a few generations of women in this small area of Massachusetts, from Deliverance to Patty, and from Sophia to Connie.

1. How have women's roles changed? How have women's rights and expectations changed?

In Deliverance's time, it was impossible for a women to be seriously considered in a doctors role. In Prudence's day, only men were allowed to study as physicians at university. These generations of women had little or no rights, no opportunity for choice or to even have a say in their own future. More often than not they walked a fine line, holding their silence, lest they risk being accused or abused. In Connie's day, women are more empowered and are no longer restricted to the role of wife and mother. Opportunities are limited only by the imagination and physical strength with equal rights are expected in all things.

2. What has stayed the same through the generations?

A woman's feminism will always hold her role of wife and mother dear, no matter what her career choice. There are some who still carry the chauvinistic attitude that this makes women the weaker gender.

[ladybug74]

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rkubie wrote:

We have now had a small window into the lives of a few generations of women in this small area of Massachusetts, from Deliverance to Patty, and from Sophia to Connie.

How have women's roles changed?  How have women's rights and expectations changed?What has stayed the same through the generations?

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Women's roles have changed in many ways, but one way that they are often the same is that strong-minded, outspoken women are still frowned upon by our society. If a man speaks up about something, he is being assertive. If a woman speaks up about something she is called an ugly name that I probably can't write here. 

[wendyroba]

One of the things I really liked about this book was its exploration of women's roles. During this time period, strong women were often looked at with fear or contempt - although in present times women are now working in positions of power and prestige, I think some of the old biases still exist. A strong man in business is considered competent; a strong woman in business is often considered a "bitch."

I love novels where women are shown to be strong and likable, competent and yet still feminine. I thought Howe did a laudable job in this area.

[m3girl]

I have to agree with most if not all of the comments already posted about some of the advances we have made over the years and also some of the things that have remained constant.

One other thing popped into my head the other day when the news reported that a young woman had been attacked in my neighborhood at 630am when she was out for a run...i remembered that we as women aren't as free to come and go as men are - we have to be a whole lot more careful and observant as we are targets of things like that far more than men are.  I mean - it's light at 630am and I live in a nice neighborhood in Chicago - but still stuff like this happens and then prevents women from feeling safe to do the things they want to do when they have time to do it.

I'm jumping off the soapbox now...

Susan

[mattzay]

I agree with wendyroba about women in positions of power. Today's society still has a hard time viewing women in positions of power. It is true that they are sometimes viewed as heartless or called names like wendyroba mentioned. Isn't sad that with everything we have overcome and after all the changes and growth that the world has made, our society still has a hard time with powerful women.

Deliverance, Mercy and Prudence were strong women. They had a skill that that they used to benefit and help society yet they were treated unfairly because of it.

I wonder if that is why Prudence decides to sell the almanac that once belonged to her grandmother. She feels that it holds some kind of curse on the men in her family and wants to save Josiah from the same fate. These women had to be strong partly because the men in their lives were not around.

[mattzay]

I just also wanted to add that something that has stayed the same is that all the men connected to the women in the book have died from some kind of tragic accident. Prudence tries to stop it by selling the almanac, but yet it still happens.

Sophia and Grace also lose their men suddenly. I still wonder if they are direct descendents from Deliverance.

[katemoriarty]

One important change is that they can no longer kill women for being witches!

The women in this book were powerful in their lives, but was it only because they had the "witchcraft ability"? It wasn't until Connie became in tune with this ability in herself that she finally was able to exert her strength as a woman. 

[skiibunny1213]

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PiperMurphy wrote:
I'm not sure that the women in this book fit the stereotypical roles of women for their times. They are all widows, up to Connie (sorry I don't remember what happened to Grace's husband), who lost their husbands at a fairly early age. They seem to be comfortable being single women. They are self-reliant, self-sufficient, and capable. They had to deal with a male dominated world, just as Connie has to put up with Chilton. Actually, I think they are behaving like modern women.

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Actually, in some ways I disagree with your statement about Deliverance, Mercy, etc. not fitting stereotypical roles of women during their time period. I think that women may not have been seen as equal or authorities in society back in the 1600s, etc., and this has changed, but what hasn't changed is that women have always been strong, capable, and self-reliant. In fact, in some cases I would say that they were stronger back then than they are now. How many of us could chop our own wood (as Mercy did), grow and cook all our own food from scratch, tend to farm animals and keep a house clean not using electronic devices and fast cleaning chemicals? These women did not have it easy! Additionally, husbands many times had more dangerous, life threatening jobs (like Sophia's) and becoming a widow was thus more likely. Even if your husband's job wasn't dangerous, any travel away from home could take months to accomplish. Ask Abigail Adams (President John Adams' wife) about that one! I think part of what makes this book interesting is the personal strength that each woman passed down to her daughter from generation to generation. This strength and self-assurance is something that each mother taught her daughter (through example) and each daughter struggled to understand and emulate. It is exactly those characteristics that make each woman in the book unique in her own way, and I also think it is those characteristics that make the characters so relatable for us. We can all only hope to be stronger in character and will than our mothers and our daughters stronger than us. Howe uses witchcraft (since it was considered a "womanly affliction during the Salem Witch Trials) as a way to link these women from the present to their ancestors. I think the strength of this link (that the ability to actually perform witchcraft continues unceasingly throughout the family chain) helps reinforce this theme of women being strong and self-reliant throughout history, no matter what man was trying to bring us down. 

Message Edited by skiibunny1213 on 04-15-2009 10:04 PM

[ponie]

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skiibunny1213 wrote:

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PiperMurphy wrote:
I'm not sure that the women in this book fit the stereotypical roles of women for their times. They are all widows, up to Connie (sorry I don't remember what happened to Grace's husband), who lost their husbands at a fairly early age. They seem to be comfortable being single women. They are self-reliant, self-sufficient, and capable. They had to deal with a male dominated world, just as Connie has to put up with Chilton. Actually, I think they are behaving like modern women.

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Actually, in some ways I disagree with your statement about Deliverance, Mercy, etc. not fitting stereotypical roles of women during their time period. I think that women may not have been seen as equal or authorities in society back in the 1600s, etc., and this has changed, but what hasn't changed is that women have always been strong, capable, and self-reliant. In fact, in some cases I would say that they were stronger back then than they are now. How many of us could chop our own wood (as Mercy did), grow and cook all our own food from scratch, tend to farm animals and keep a house clean not using electronic devices and fast cleaning chemicals? These women did not have it easy! Additionally, husbands many times had more dangerous, life threatening jobs (like Sophia's) and becoming a widow was thus more likely. Even if your husband's job wasn't dangerous, any travel away from home could take months to accomplish. Ask Abigail Adams (President John Adams' wife) about that one! I think part of what makes this book interesting is the personal strength that each woman passed down to her daughter from generation to generation. This strength and self-assurance is something that each mother taught her daughter (through example) and each daughter struggled to understand and emulate. It is exactly those characteristics that make each woman in the book unique in her own way, and I also think it is those characteristics that make the characters so relatable for us. We can all only hope to be stronger in character and will than our mothers and our daughters stronger than us. Howe uses witchcraft (since it was considered a "womanly affliction during the Salem Witch Trials) as a way to link these women from the present to their ancestors. I think the strength of this link (that the ability to actually perform witchcraft continues unceasingly throughout the family chain) helps reinforce this theme of women being strong and self-reliant throughout history, no matter what man was trying to bring us down. 

Message Edited by skiibunny1213 on 04-15-2009 10:04 PM

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Not sure if they were comfortable being single women but they were self-reliant, self-sufficient, capable and strong.  Absolutely!  We've definitely come a long way and life is not as back breaking as it was then.  But on some level, tho there have been great strides and breakthroughs, women are still struggling in and with a male dominated world..and endeavoring to wisely arm and equip our daughters for their futures in that world.

[valorietucker]

I don't think it needs to be said just how these women were different.  Each respond to the expectations of their time.  Deliverance lived in a restrained and male dominated world, whereas Connie enjoys freedoms unknown to the other women.  Yet, Connie still has to fight against sexism in her intellectual world.  That's evident in that she was always so condescending called "my girl" by her advisor.

 Yet all of these women, different though they are, are strong and preserver.  

[Immortal-Spirit]

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m3girl wrote:

I have to agree with most if not all of the comments already posted about some of the advances we have made over the years and also some of the things that have remained constant.

One other thing popped into my head the other day when the news reported that a young woman had been attacked in my neighborhood at 630am when she was out for a run...i remembered that we as women aren't as free to come and go as men are - we have to be a whole lot more careful and observant as we are targets of things like that far more than men are.  I mean - it's light at 630am and I live in a nice neighborhood in Chicago - but still stuff like this happens and then prevents women from feeling safe to do the things they want to do when they have time to do it.

I'm jumping off the soapbox now...

Susan

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I agree.  There is still the question if a woman gets attacked (or worse) is, What what she doing out at that hour? What was she wearing? etc. 

If a woman decides not to have children, she's considered selfish or abnormal.  We've come so far, but yet, not far enough in some areas.

Getting off my own soapbox now...

[Adeline79]

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

This may be off topic, but I found it very interesting and refreshing that the women - from Delieverance to Connie don't seem to fall into the sterotypical women of their time.  They are strong willed, and seem to take control of their lives (to some extent.) 

What I found was the differences inbetween Deliverance to Connie was more of a religious change.  In the early times, religion played a much more role in their life. Thier lives were surrounded by their faith.  Whereas, in Connie's time, it is less so.  Even non-existant. 

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This is an interesting comment. In Deliverance's time her religion grounded her and shaped her life choices. For Connie, her education was what shaped her view of the world. This is what I like most about Howe's book - Connie's 'knowledge' gained through her studies, is challenged in such a deep and personal way. What would it be like to not even believe in witchcraft, only to discover that you yourself are a witch??? I love that.

[flourlady]

The whole book was fascinating.  I enjoyed watching the differences and similarities between Connie and her mother.  Later it was interesting to see the differences and similarities through the years starting with Deliverance. 

Certainly some of these parallels, though in a more traditional sense, follow us in our lives.  It's like a "pentimento".  Seeing and then seeing again later with different eyes - bringing away something different and valuable with each perspective.

[mnbc]

Good point!

[Jennmarie68]

I think that throughout history, and even today a woman's role is to care for the household and the children. While today there are many exceptions to this rule I think it is still a role that women play, along with their work and other activiteis that women seem to fit into their schedule.

In the past a women's place in society was greatly based on her husband, if the women did something disgraceful it would be a sign that her husband couldn't control his wife, and the disgrace would follow the children for generations. This is seen in the fact that Mercy had to go to court to try and have her monther's name cleared because Mercy couldn't make a living in their town, she had to leave to be able to survive. 

I think women have come a long way but some of the basic ideas about women, such as they are responsible for keeping house and taking care of the children, are still existant. I do not see this as something that will ever change, I think women will just find ways to keep up on their duties and try to find time to have their own lives and own identieis. 

[Jennmarie68]

Kate,

I agree that one Connie was able to tune her abilities that she became much more powerful, but until whe waws able to do so she was very unsure of the powers she had. 

I liked the scene when she was using the scissors and the collander. That scene seemed to me to be the turning point for Connie. Even at the begining of that scene she was still quite unsure of herself, but once she realised that she could save Sam, and that she was his only option, she seemed to change. At least that is the part where I noticed her change. 

[Jennmarie68]

Debbie,

You worded that great. I too agree that a woman is the heart of the family, I do not think that is something that will ever change. I'm just glad to live in an age where different beliefs are just that, and having different beliefs won't get you shunned from society. 

[Jennmarie68]

Skiibunny,

   I'm glad you brought up Abigail Adams. As I've been reading through these posts and thinking about women through history I kept thinking about her, I just didn't know where to mention her. Even though she fit the "traditional" role of a woman; keeping house, taking care of the children, and running the house while her husband was away, she was a very influential woman. Many of the decisions that John Adams made he would discuss with his wife, I've have read and watched a few things on the Adams' and while Abigail was not getting in people's faces and not voicing her opinions in public (as this would have disgraced John) she was very influential in the events that happened during colonial times. Through the advice she had given her husband she was able to make a difference in a time when women's opinions were not considered to be valid. 

I guess in any period in history there are people (men and women) who make significant strides without being praised as the person that made the difference. 

[marciliogq]

We should think of women role, specially the ones seen as "witches" through the point of view of some patriarchalists. Cotton Mather is a fanatic for religion. I found a text relating details about the judgement in Salem. We should perhaps think of women role in that time and then discuss it on the book lately.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/asa_math.htm

[PinkPanther]

 Women's roles have changed drastically, but at the same time, they have stayed the same. Women now go to work and bring home some (if not all) of the income. They are successful in many male dominated fields and tend to perform even better than their male companions. Women now have more rights to speak what is on their minds when and where they want. Unfortunately, women are still looked down upon by many males and are even discriminated. No matter how much time passes, some males will always look down on women beaus of evolution. In the times of the cavemen, women would stay at home (or in their caves) and care for the home and children, while her husband hunted. We are genetically programmed to think that men are the dominant figures, but this changes as humans get older. 

Although women are just as good (if not better) than men at various tasks, men will sometimes discriminate. It is hard for many of them to notice that a woman performs better. It makes them feel inferior and with less power and it is guaranteed that the feeling fills them with anger. Maybe in the future, women will dominate all males, and males will eventually give in and accept the fact that women are equal.