The Poacher's Son: Final Chapters and Whole Novel

[Rachel-K]

Hi all, thanks for your patience! It looks like we can share our last week of discussion!

Please use any of the following questions to discuss the end of Poacher's Son, and please feel free to post your own questions and thoughts for the group as well.

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

Mike's father pins some of the violence and death in these last scenes on Mike himself. Is this accurate or a manipulation? How does Mike handle it?

Do you get the impression that there were similarities in the relationships that Brenda Dean had with Jack, and Jack's relationship with Mike's mother?

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? Do you think of her as one of the novel's villains or as a victim? 

How does Mike seem to change in these chapters, both before and after the violent ending with his father?

Does your opinion of any of the other Wardens change as we learn how mislead Mike was in his quest to save his father?

Do you have predictions for Mike's future?

[DSaff]

Wow! What a ride! I am unhappy to say I was totally wrong in my suspect list, but chalk that up to Paul's fabulous writing. Once I started this section, I felt pulled to the end and was surprised to see that Mike's dad did it after all. I had started to suspect Brenda, but wasn't sure who she was working with.

Was Brenda a victim or a villain? She is both, but as an adult, she made her choices. She is more of a villain to me and was just as responsible for the murders as Jack. She, like Mike's father, tried to manipulate Mike. Thankfully, Mike was able to get free and eventually save Charlie. Her manipulation of men was taught to her in the camp, she just learned how to use her body more effectively to get what she wanted.

I was happy to know that Charlie was totally a good guy and that he would survive. I hope to read more about him as the series continues. I was also happy that Mike reached out to Sarah and hope they work things out. Mike seems to have grown through the story, so the next books should help us understand him more.

Fabulous book! Congratulations, Paul!!

[Zia01]

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome? I was completely blindsided! I spent the entire book looking at other possibilities. I missed this one completely.

Do you get the impression that there were similarities in the relationships that Brenda Dean had with Jack, and Jack's relationship with Mike's mother? I never put the two together. I don't think Jack loved MIke's mom like he did Brenda. He came back for her. I don't recall him chasing Mike's mom when she left him.

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? Do you think of her as one of the novel's villains or as a victim? I think of her as a woman who is scarred enough that there is still a child lurking. She's angry and vindictive. Part of me wants to see her as a victim, which she is, but I don't believe it excuses her actions later on.

[maxcat]

I was surprised about the ending.... of course I vented in the I read it all thread. But it came as a complete surprise to me to find that jack did it all. I also thought it was a lame excuse for him to come back for Brenda, who cheated on him several times. I kept thinking what a fool Jack was. I really thought that Jack was going to harm Mike. It seemed he saw nothing but what he wanted to do and Mike was standing in the way. To even think that Jack was going to canoe both Brenda and Mike up to Canada seemed unheard of. I'm glad Mike stood up in the boat and wasn't sorry that Brenda drowned. I did think that Charley died when Jack shot his plane down and was pleasantly surprised by the fact that he lived. And the best part was Mike getting his badge back. I knew that had to happen as the author talked about a series he is doing on Mike.

[dhaupt]

First of all what a read, I LOVED IT.

Now for the matters at hand,

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

I was and was not surprised by the fact that Jack was the culprit. I was however floored by the reason. All along here we are sheep to the slaughter thinking this is about logging and property and the ownership of said property. When Wham we get hit by a logging truck that we didn't see coming.

Kudos to Paul for making such a wow ending.

Mike's father pins some of the violence and death in these last scenes on Mike himself. Is this accurate or a manipulation? How does Mike handle it?

I don't think it was manipulation, I found it more to be the ravings of a man without any choices left and wondering what to do next.

Do you get the impression that there were similarities in the relationships that Brenda Dean had with Jack, and Jack's relationship with Mike's mother?

I do, both women were very manipulating. But where Mike's mom wasn't also nuts where Brenda obviously had a few screws loose.

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? Do you think of her as one of the novel's villains or as a victim? 

I think that Brenda is the main villain in this novel, she used people to get what she wanted and when the consequences turned deadly she showed no remorse. It was always some one else's fault

How does Mike seem to change in these chapters, both before and after the violent ending with his father?

Mike literally grows up in front of our eyes in these last chapters, becomes more responsible and wants to take charge of his life and fix what he broke before.

Do you have predictions for Mike's future?

I see a great future being a  Maine Warden for Mike.

[GadgetgirlKS]

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

I was shocked by his father being the killer and the motive for the killings. I was not surprised that Brenda was one of the bad guys after the way she acted, especially around Mike. I feel so bad for Mike because his father let him down again, one last final time. I was further shocked that his father killed himself. This was very selfish on his part which is not a surprise, but the fact that he wanted to be with Brenda so badly that he would end his life when she died (even after she betrayed/cheated on him) was surprising. I guess the whole time I was rooting for Mike and his belief that his father was a good guy deep down and would never kill anyone.

Overall, I like the book better because of the surprises at the end. It helped keep me entertained! I can't wait to recommend this book to my dad who enjoys mystery books.

[DSaff]

So true!  =)

dhaupt wrote:

I was and was not surprised by the fact that Jack was the culprit. I was however floored by the reason. All along here we are sheep to the slaughter thinking this is about logging and property and the ownership of said property. When Wham we get hit by a logging truck that we didn't see coming.

Kudos to Paul for making such a wow ending.

[KathyS]

Well, I've already sadly given my opinion of this novel, but as far as the suspects, and the ending, there wasn't enough depth written into any of them, or the storyline, for me to be surprised, or not surprised, at who the bad guy(s) was. 

The ending read well, but there was nothing that made me care who did it, one way or the other.  I wasn't emotionally attached to Jack, Brenda, or these other characters, enough to care, or be surprised.  One of the police men, or any number of lame ducks could have done it.  Yes, this author had you questioning each character, but how much did it really matter to you?  That's the real question I pose.  How much did you like, or dislike, any of these characters?

The "WOW" effect, for me, comes only if I'm so totally blindsided, if I didn't see the person's motives.... which only comes when your suspicions are thrown completely on someone else, that you didn't connect the other person to the crime.  It was a roll of the dice, in this one.  It could have been any number of people.  The fact that Jack did what he did, was a very lame reason for a mystery ending, as I read it.

The scenes were written well, but the glue that stuck them together just wasn't there for me.  Tell me why I should care for Jack, or Brenda, or anyone of these characters?  Enough to be blindsided?

I would have had Charley as the killer, without first telling us that he would loose as much as anyone, as this author wrote it in, (motive for killing) when the land was sold.  Just knowing that thirty years of living in this place, and the love for it, is a good motive to want to preserve what you have......the love for your land, your home and family.....  I wish we could have gotten to know Charley and his wife, and family, better, without throwing suspicion on him, if he's not the killer, it just made it obvious it wasn't him.  I would have had Jack out there, finding out who the real killer was, trying to absolve himself, and Mike finding his father in the process, and helping him in all of this...forget Brenda as a love interest... the real drama comes in the writing by an author, to make us care, or love the person, who in the end you find out is the real killer.  That's when it blindsides you.

Anyway, I didn't care if Jack did it, or Brenda, or any of these people who came across as dysfunctional.  If they don't care about anything, why should I care about them?  Of course, I'm only speaking of characters in a novel, not about real people you do care about.  Like I said, I didn't get emotionally attached to any of these characters.

[PiperMurphy]

Wow, this really is a fantastic book. I was very surprised by the ending. Since the story is told in the first person from Mike's point of view, I was pretty much interpreting the clues the way he did. I truly thought that Jack was being framed, and as it turns out that is exactly what he wanted people to think.

Jack blaming Mike for some of the violence at the end is accurate in some ways, but also manipulation. It's accurate because Mike showed up at the camp unexpectedly which meant that Jack couldn't go through with his plan. He would have had to kill Mike to get away, but whether he liked it or not, there was still a father-son connection between them. He couldn't do it, but he wanted Mike to feel guilty for forcing him to do what he did and probably also for Brenda's death. Mike feels betrayed, but he realizes that he can't save his father and he can't let him escape. Now he is left with unanswered questions and unresolved issues.

Brenda behaved like a child, and I wonder what her true relationship was with Jack. She turned out to be the villain, but I think that she and Jack were both victims in a way. We know that Brenda had an abusive childhood, but we don't know the circumstances. We know little of Jack's background. Something happened to make them the way they were. It will be interesting to find out what that is. The mystery isn't over.

The thing about the other wardens was that we were seeing them through Mike's eyes. He was thinking straight. We didn't see much of the actual murder investigation. Both the wardens and the detectives thought the motive for the murders was the timber leases. As it turns out, they had the right suspect, but they never considered that there might be another motive. I didn't understand why Mike was ostracized by everyone involved in the investigation. He wasn't responsible for his father's actions. It was like he was guilty by association. I also didn't quite understand Detective Menario. He didn't believe Mike when he said Jack was innocent, and he didn't believe him when Mike told him the truth. Soctomah must have been puzzled also because he has to point out that Menario really was a good detective. As for Kathy and Malcomb, I always thought that they would give Mike a second chance.

Mike has a lot of unresolved issues. I think that he will mature as he works through those issues and discover who he is. I don't think that he will ever quite get over what happened. Charley will be a strong influence on him. I predict that he will advance as a game warden and eventually take Malcomb's position.

[gold02]

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

I was very surprised by the outcome, and the fact that the murders were not motivated by property disputes or big business at all, but by jealousy.  I definitely believed that there were far more likely suspects than Mike's father, but in the end, his having been the murderer made so much sense!

Do you get the impression that there were similarities in the relationships that Brenda Dean had with Jack, and Jack's relationship with Mike's mother?

I felt as though Jack had a lot more feelings for Brenda, but maybe that is because we didn't see his relationship with Mike's mother as much.  I definitely thought that he must have cared about Brenda a great deal to come back for her, rather than strike out on his own and evade the law.

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? Do you think of her as one of the novel's villains or as a victim? 

Brenda is very immature in her behavior and extremely manipulative.  I do feel sympathy for her having grown up in an all-male world and being abused at least emotionally for her entire life.  That doesn't excuse her choices or her convincing Jack to kill people to cover up her own actions. 

How does Mike seem to change in these chapters, both before and after the violent ending with his father?

I think Mike definitely matured as the story progressed.  He began to see that maybe his bosses had a point that he should have stayed out of the search for his father, and I think had some genuine regret for blowing off the responsibilities of his job.  Once he realized that he had been protecting his father - who was actually guilty of the crimes - I think he was forced into realizing that even parents aren't infallible and can make terrible choices with their lives.  I hope that Mike is able to reconnect with his job and other people in his life, like Sarah.  I felt badly for him that he put such trust in his father, because he was his father, and had that trust betrayed. 

[skrupp]

I was completely shocked by who did it, but more so the motive behind the act.  Mike handled the final scenes much better than he had handled some of the other scenes.  His father was once again trying to manipulate Mike into believing that he had something to do with any of this.  The relationships between Jack and the two ladies were different.  Jack never chased Mike's mom but was willing to kill for Brenda.

Brenda--totally a villian, but to some degree a victim as well.  She was a victim as a child, but she made choices that turned her into a villian.  She had just as much to do with the deaths as Jack.

I got the feeling that Mike was some what "deflated" after his interaction with his father.  However, I think being friends with Charley and his wife will help him see some good in life.

[thewanderingjew]

Rachel-K wrote:

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

I think I was shocked by the ending because it was probably more true to what would happen in real life than in a novel where you are always led to look for the unexpected. In reality, Mike's dad was a pretty bad guy right from the get go and flaunted the law and rules at will. I think I kind of wanted him to be misjudged and wanted him to turn out to be nicer than he was so that I could believe that although the war really changed him he did find his way back to his former self and turned back into a nice guy healed from the war's effects. Sometimes I have been accused of being Pollyanna and this might be one of those times.

[nbmars]

What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?

I'd say more that I was disappointed at the outcome.  I loved the book right up until the ending.  Jack didn't seem like someone who would do all that he did for the love of this obviously damaged young girl.  I did think, however, that Jack was not above killing Mike, and indeed, given what else he did for Brenda, it surprises me that he didn't do so.  Also, although I was glad Charley was still alive, it seemed very improbable.

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? 

To me she definitely does not seem like a grown woman but not a child either.  Rather, I would characterize her as a sociopathic drug-head.

Does your opinion of any of the other Wardens change as we learn how mislead Mike was in his quest to save his father?

No, I thought even though they were right, they should have understood that Mike (a) was NOT his father and (b) would of course DEFEND his father.  I thought they treated him very shabbily.

How does Mike seem to change in these chapters, both before and after the violent ending with his father?

I didn't see Mike as changing all that much.  But that's okay:  I look forward to the next book in the series to see how he is evolving!

Even though the ending disappointed me, I thought it was a terrific book, and definitely intend to follow up!

[LindaEducation]

Like I stated in another thread, at the ending I just said outloud, "Wow!" I was totally surprised at the "who done it".

I don't really see Brenda as a child or a grown women. I see her somewhere in the middle, like a wild rebellious teenager who is also very manipulative. I totally disliked her character, even more than Jack's.  I feel like Jack cared much more for Brenda than he did Mike's Mom as he came back for her.

I am glad that this will be a series, and we will be seeing more of Mike.  I liked his character and am looking forward to seeing how he evolves.  Glad he didnt lose his job.

Eagerly awaiting the next book...

[kaylami]

In mysteries, we expect the suspect to be a surprise revelation, and for the motives and events of the crime to grow ever more complicated as we discover them in the progress of the novel. What is different about the conclusion of The Poacher's Son? Were you shocked at the outcome?  I'm not sure I was shocked...just disappointed on Mike's behalf.  What did surprise me was that the motive was actually less complicated than I previously thought. 

Mike's father pins some of the violence and death in these last scenes on Mike himself. Is this accurate or a manipulation? How does Mike handle it?   It was all manipulation to make Mike as desperate as he was.  Perhaps Mike would help him out more if he felt guilty too.   I think Mike saw throught that pretty quickly and realized that it was ultimately his father's doing. 

Do you get the impression that there were similarities in the relationships that Brenda Dean had with Jack, and Jack's relationship with Mike's mother?  They both knew that Jack loved them.  They both believed that Jack would do anything for them.  I think Mike's mother thought he would change for her, but that never happened.  Brenda got him to kill for her.

Does Brenda give the impression of being a child or a grown woman? Do you think of her as one of the novel's villains or as a victim?   Those are interesting questions.  I see her in the middle on both questions.  She is not a child, but she is not a mature woman either.  I think a great deal of her childhood was stolen and she was still trying to find a home.  She began as a victim...surrounded by drunken, abusive people.  But then she became the villian as she manipulated those around her.

How does Mike seem to change in these chapters, both before and after the violent ending with his father?  I think he becomes stronger as he realizes just how terrible his father is.  He also realizes that he is nothing like his father and I feel he's taking on Charley as a role model.  He sees how Charley and his wife live and I believe it causes him to re-evaluate his relationship with Sarah.

Does your opinion of any of the other Wardens change as we learn how mislead Mike was in his quest to save his father? Earlier I thought they were being pretty harsh with Mike.  They all seemed certain of Jack's guilt.  It seemed like they wouldn't even listen to Mike.  But now I think some of them, closest to Mike, were trying to get him to see the truth about his dad and perhaps spare him a little of the pain.

Do you have predictions for Mike's future?  Hopefully, he'll work on his relationship with Sarah.  I think he'll spend more time with Charley & Ora.  I'm sure he'll stay working as a game warden and solve some more mysteries for us.

[CAG]

The ending surprised me. I didn't like Jack but I wanted to believe he was innocent. The ending made sense to me but I just didn't see it coming. Great ending as far as I am concerned.

I think Brenda ended up being a villain. She had a rough childhood but I firmly believe we all make choices as adults. She didn't choose to work on herself. She was only interested in what she could get from others. And so she became the great manipulator. She and Jack deserved each other.

Charlie was wonderful. I am so glad he was the good guy. I had some questions in my mind about him at times even though I really liked him. I think a few others expressed some concern about him as well. There was just the right amount of mystery in his character to make him very interesting as the story developed. I am curious as to what others thought about him.

This book has been a pleasure to read. I wish Paul the very best and can't wait for his next book.

[kpatton]

DSaff wrote:

Wow! What a ride! I am unhappy to say I was totally wrong in my suspect list, but chalk that up to Paul's fabulous writing. Once I started this section, I felt pulled to the end and was surprised to see that Mike's dad did it after all. I had started to suspect Brenda, but wasn't sure who she was working with.

Was Brenda a victim or a villain? She is both, but as an adult, she made her choices. She is more of a villain to me and was just as responsible for the murders as Jack. She, like Mike's father, tried to manipulate Mike. Thankfully, Mike was able to get free and eventually save Charlie. Her manipulation of men was taught to her in the camp, she just learned how to use her body more effectively to get what she wanted.

I was happy to know that Charlie was totally a good guy and that he would survive. I hope to read more about him as the series continues. I was also happy that Mike reached out to Sarah and hope they work things out. Mike seems to have grown through the story, so the next books should help us understand him more.

Fabulous book! Congratulations, Paul!!

Once again DStaff-Well said.  Thank you Paul for sharing your book with us.  I was not ready for the killer to be Jack and was sad that it was.  I didn't want this to be Mike's reality after he had so wanted to clear his father's name.  Jack ended up being one more dissapointment to his son and what a huge dissapointment!- to mislead, manipulate and use your own son!

When I read the last few chapters, I was glad to read Mike beginning to know that he needed to refocus his life and career.  This was definitely a coming of age story.  We all know that frontal lobe development in boys continues into those mid-twenties, so the character of Mike certainly fit a young man still growing up.

Mike's future certainly holds possibilities for him.  You can't help but hope that there might still be a chance for Mike and Sarah.  You also know that he will continue as a game warden which certainly appears to be a life he enjoys.

I really enjoyed this novel.

Kathy

[literature]

 

All aspects of Jack's plans at the end were falling apart because Mike showed up and he wasn't part of Jack's plans.  Jack was an experienced hunter, capable of altering his plans at a moment's notice but having his son there unexpectedly spoiled everything and clouded his ability to think coherently. Jack didn't care about Mike but was just using him as a means to an end.  Mike realized it was life or death and the only way to save himself was to shock Jack with the truth about Brenda.  Whatever emotional bond that Mike felt toward Jack previously no longer existed now.  Once Mike was able to break this tie, he took control of the situation and was able to think clearly.  Actually, it was Mike who manipulated the situation here.  He unrelentently badgered Brenda with accusations that she slept with Brodeur and lied about Pelletier raping her.  What threw Jack over the top was when Mike said  "She tried to seduce me, too.  Less than an hour ago in your cabin.  She took her clothers off."  When Brenda tried apologizing to Jack for her behavior and said "I don't know what's wrong with me", Jack replied with "I don't, either."

The realization hit Mike that his father had come back for Brenda "because she shared his particular insanity".  But the difference between Jack and Brenda was that Jack might have given the notion that he cared whereas Brenda was just ruthless and really never knew how to care.

On the surface, the similarities between Brenda & Jack and Marie & Jack were similar in that both women let Jack have his own space, do what he wanted and rule the roost.  But the difference was that Brenda has no scrupples and didn't care about anyone but herself whereas Marie was more the Stefford Wife and just left when she couldn't take it anymore.

Jack never stopped loving Marie even though he knew she would never come back to him.   The disappointment he felt with Brenda and especially in losing her forever, was just too much for him to live with.

Brenda never grew up.  We meet her when she is a young teenager.  Traumatized when her mother is left to die on the side of the road coming home one night with her drunken husband, who was too drunk to realize that she fell, and continued home without her. Brenda was the victim growing up in circumstances unfit for any young person.  Her father never gave her the love, caring or guidance that a father should give to a child and purposely egged on the bunch of unruly men in the camp by giving her the nickname of "BJ", knowing that she would be teased.  Even though this was the only home she had ever known, she should have had the strength to run away but she never did.  She became the villian, not caring about anyone or any thing and never even respected herself.  She was a liar and a user and used Jack, rather than cared for him, just as she used Mike.  Brenda was actually a very sick human being, beyond help, and death was the only way out for her.  She was a menace to society.  (Wow!)

The metamorphasis in Mike started taking place first with Sarah spending the night with Mike, then Mike spending the night with Charley/Ora and finally with the realization that his father was guilty of the two murders, then possibly another two more men and then possibly Mike himself.  After spending the night at Charley's/Ora's place, he told Ora that that was the first good night's sleep in had had in a long time.  Mike saw what family life should be like when Ora was cooking dinner for them and Mike realized that was what he had never experienced.  He observed that when love exists between two people, it could be felt in everything.

Kathy was Mike's mentor and as manly as I mentioned previously that I thought Kathy was, she was still very maternal to Mike.  She became very frustrated with him when he broke protocol to try and prove his father's innocense, but she never gave up on him.  Even Malcomb softened.  What I never understood was Menario's attitude.  Soctomah more or less said to Mike that he was okay, sort of just to overlook his faults.  Even Twombley softened in the end when he drove Mike to the hospital.

I can see Mike maturing and slowing coming to terms with his life.  Of course, having Sarah with him would help a lot but she would have to stay with him because she loves him for what he is and not for what she wants him to be.  As far as his mother and Neil, I don't know.  When Mike called to tell them about Jack, they never asked how Mike was doing.  But I think the strongest force in Mike's life will be Charley and Ora.  Will their daughter Anne give Sarah some competition for Mike?

[jabrkeKB]

I never suspected Jack, so I was surprised by the ending.

I see Brenda as both a victim and a villain. I know she is a "product" of her upbringing but I just didn't like her. She made awful choices.

I don't know about Mike's future, it will be interesting to see what Paul has in store for him.

[ssizemore]

I was surprised and amazed at the ending!  I bought the whole tale--hook, line, and sinker!  That makes a great novel.  Loved it!