Reply
Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

[ Edited ]
I know that you and I come from different vantage points and I don't want to be confrontational but you are forgetting one important fact...for the most part, the Arabs fled because they were told to by the Arabs who declared war on Israel; for the most part, the Jews fled because they were forced to, by Arabs. The tale is totally different. Israel never occupied the land, she defeated countries that declared themselves enemies. How did Britain gain control of the Falklands?  I posted the information for those who wanted to learn more. The videos are long but they show the side of the other victims in this issue.
This is a map showing the relative size of Israel, in blue, when compared to other Arab nations surrounding it. The red is Jordan. The Arabs are fighting for a pinhead of land when they have miles and miles of land to reabsorb their citizens. I am not taking a stand, I am merely pointing out another solution to the refugee problem,at least temporarily. Israel often takes in their refugees.
Also, I don't get my information from a novel which is meant to entertain and often skews the facts. Certainly we all know that after reading this book. Places and events are made up although the setting is historically accurate. Exodus is an historic novel, it is not, a non-fiction account.
In addition, the Bush and Kennedy families both have relatives we can point fingers at as well as at the Royals. They, however, were not asking Hitler to anihilate all Jews in their countries as the Mufti was and I daresay if you look hard enough you will find evidence of anti-semitism in the current White House. Do you remember Reverend Wright? Our President sat and listened to those hate-filled speeches for years. Does that make him an anti-Semite? I think it serves no purpose to point fingers and name names in a political way. The important thing is for the truth to get out, not to make this issue political.
Choisya wrote:

 

For some reason, this history has never been publicized.
There was a lot of publicity in newspapers and newsreels at the time of the setting up of the Israeli state on Palestinian land in 1948 which dealt with the activities of the militant Muslim Brotherhood and  Arab League who opposed this decision by the Allies.  Leon Uris' 1958 book Exodus about these times was an internationa bestseller, as was the 1960s film of the same name.  It is also  important to remember that the Palestinians had an exodus and suffered in these conflicts. Some Palestinians are still in refugee camps. The Arab nations did not agree with the setting up of an Israeli state on what they considered to be Arab land and favoured a settlement in Africa, which was mooted at that time.  This, together with historical prejudices against the Jews, is one of the sources of Middle Eastern conflict in our own times.  The facts around both these exodus are bitterly disputed on both sides.  As for making deals with Hitler, prominent Brits and prominent Americans also did that:smileysad:.  The Mufti's involvement with Hitler was much publicised after the war but the activities of British and American anti-semites, also opposed to the establishment of Israel, was played down as they were often from prominent familes - like our Royals and George Bush's grandfather.          
 


thewanderingjew wrote:

This is an interesting perspective. If you click on the excerpts from the film, "The Forgotten Jews",  you will learn some interesting facts about what happened to the Jews of the Middle East who no longer live in Arab countries. You will learn the whole story and perhaps it will help some people understand what is happening today in the Middle East by looking back to how they were treated by the Arabs, even during World War II. For some reason, this history has never been publicized. If you want to know the whole story, take the time to view these. I am not taking sides, I am merely asking you to learn more of the facts about the Middle East before you make judgments. You will have to keep an open mind to view these.

 

one

two

three

four

five

 

In case the links don't work, these are the websites:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nwI2hzPjrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHc0yvtrDw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=969cMq8rIzc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYkQlTfWIvc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TJfEf5UMSI&feature=related

 

This video explains that the Arab Mufti met with Hitler to encourage him to continue his policies in the Arab world.


 

 


Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

[ Edited ]

 

I thought you might like to hear this speech by the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan, Colonel Kemp. I wish someone in the USA had stood up and made the same kind of comment. Perhaps one will surface on utube.

Choisya wrote:

 

For some reason, this history has never been publicized.
There was a lot of publicity in newspapers and newsreels at the time of the setting up of the Israeli state on Palestinian land in 1948 which dealt with the activities of the militant Muslim Brotherhood and  Arab League who opposed this decision by the Allies.  Leon Uris' 1958 book Exodus about these times was an international bestseller, as was the 1960s film of the same name.  It is also  important to remember that the Palestinians had an exodus and suffered in these conflicts. Some Palestinians are still in refugee camps. The Arab nations did not agree with the setting up of an Israeli state on what they considered to be Arab land and favoured a settlement in Africa, which was mooted at that time.  This, together with historical prejudices against the Jews, is one of the sources of Middle Eastern conflict in our own times.  The facts around both these exodus are bitterly disputed on both sides.  As for making deals with Hitler, prominent Brits and prominent Americans also did that:smileysad:.  The Mufti's involvement with Hitler was much publicised after the war but the activities of British and American anti-semites, also opposed to the establishment of Israel, was played down as they were often from prominent familes - like our Royals and George Bush's grandfather.          

 

Inspired Contributor
jbnie
Posts: 40
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

There are many heroes in any given period in history, This was especially true in WWII and as it related to the Jews. Many people did things that they would never have thought possible in ordinary times, and future generations will never know their stories, much less their names. To squabble over who was and who was not a hero detracts from horror of what was happening to the Jews.

 

Many people, especially the journalist, chose to focus on the "big picture" rather that the small people stories. I was wondering would countries have embraced Hitler if they knew what he was doing to PEOPLE and would the US have entered the war sooner, if we only knew. I was happy that Frankie could see the real story, the people, and chose to report ti.

 

This book created a profound sense of sadness in me as I read it. I could not stop thinking about the lives that were lost and the things that would never be because of it (the Holocaust). As I look at the world today I am filled with the same sadness, lives are being lost and things that might have been, will never be. This is a book that I will read again many, many, times

 

JBNIE

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

 

I am not sure what you mean. If the person who died doing heroic feats was the hero and the ones that survived were not, is the implication that they were somehow less?
I think that may be the feeling behind many who lived with guilt their whole lives for having lived while others died. I find it sad to think of them as less than...luck and fate and sometimes their own ingenuity  contrived to save them and they should not be thought ill of, but rather should be considered lucky to have survived to continue on. They were brave and strong too. They were forced to behave like animals in some instances, but none were animals, none started out that way. They were treated so inhumanely, they lost their own humanity briefly. What a testimony it is to them that they were even able to come out of that experience and continue on...

fordmg wrote:

Actually I think Jim Holland was saying that people's stories were not news.  The news was military detachments and who won or lost a battle.  I think Frankie was changing the way news was reported.  Just like in London, it seemed like she was changing the definition of hero.  The antihero was someone who survived, not someone doiong heroic feats.  I think Frankie has a story to tell.  Jim was just living the moment. 

MG

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

 

Frankie wanted to continue Harriet's legacy by collecting true stories of what was happening to the Jews in Europe. I think Jim was trying to tell Frankie that people need soundbites that direct them to the place you want them to go with the information you provide. He probably felt that collecting so many stories was too diluted an approach and did not make it personal enough, would not let it touch people the way she wanted it to touch them. Too much information is rejected by most people.
However, in retrospect., the people who collected those stories provided the true history of the times. I think Frankie may have been a good enough reporter to collect and then sift out the parts she needed to direct the world's attention to the right place. She was one of the unsung heroes of World War II. There were many real reporters who tried to do just what she did. We often don't give enough credit to the journalists who put themselves in harm's way to expose the truth, whether or not people are listening.
Rachel-K wrote:

 

Jim Holland tells Frankie she doesn't have a story. Why not? Do you agree? Is Frankie a "collector" on this trip rather than a reporter?

 

 


 


 

 


 

Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

 

I guess beauty is truly in the mind of the beholder...what you describe as squabbling I believe is searching for the truth. It is important to get all the information out in the open. When people discovered what was going on, there was disbelief. Who could imagine such horror taking place? However, governments did know early on that terrible things were happening in Europe, for years, but officials and normal people stood by and watched and waited. The holocaust began in 1933 with Hitler's rise to power and ended in 1945.
Hopefully, the search for information will not get belligerent, but remain cerebral and apolitical. If you would like more information...here is a page of links.
This might answer your question concerning the response to Hitler if only people had known.
In addition...THE "JEWISH QUESTION": Nazi Policy 1933-1939
"So I believe that I act in the spirit of the Almighty God: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord".

Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf, 1924

As the international economic crisis of the Great Depression spread in the early 1930s, the Nazis fed on the discontent of the lower and middle classes of Germany. Most German voters who brought the Nazis to power assumed their extremism would be tempered by the responsibility and compromise necessary to govern. They were mistaken.

Jews lost their jobs, their citizenship, and all civil rights. When war broke out in 1939, escape was almost impossible. The "Final Solution", the murder of all Jews, became the next phase of Nazi policy.The information came from here.

edited by twj:
jbnie wrote:...To squabble over who was and who was not a hero detracts from horror of what was happening to the Jews...
I was wondering would countries have embraced Hitler if they knew what he was doing to PEOPLE and would the US have entered the war sooner, if we only knew. I was happy that Frankie could see the real story, the people, and chose to report it...

 


 

 

Contributor
annemd
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎03-22-2009
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Jim Holland tells Frankie she doesn't have a story. Why not? Do you agree? Is Frankie a "collector" on this trip rather than a reporter?

 

Frankie seems to want to collect evidence of the people, who may in an instant be lost or gone.  This reminds me of what Will was thinking in the bomb shelter,  that "...each one of us was alive, intensely alive, right until the instant of death."   It is like she wanted to document the people, that people are being herded, murdered, Resisting.  I think that collecting the voices telling about themselves is in part the story, making it about real people not just "them".  On the other hand, Jim does have a good point when he says that the reporter needs to provide the frame, show people where to look. 

 

 

AnneMD
Distinguished Correspondent
ClaudiaLuce
Posts: 133
Registered: ‎01-31-2008
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Of all the "bits" of this book that I loves and was effected by, I think this part effected me the most.  I felt that Frankie's train trip into Germany and across France was an eye opener for her, that this is when she realized what was really going on during the war, the annihilation of the Jews and the horrors that were being inflicted upon them.  She began to feel their devastation, their loss, their feelings of total abandonment, that no one, including God, was looking after them, helping them.  I think that her feelings built to a crescendo when the boy she wanted to accompany to Lisbon had to go on alone because her travel visa had expired.

 

The fact that Frankie "collected" the voices of the Jews was very "telling" for me.  I think she will somehow find a way to tell their story - to explain to the world what she was part of and witnessed during those weeks that she was on the train and traveled with the Jews.  I believe that she will tell the story of the deaths she witnessed, the pain she felt, and the heartache she experienced.  I don't believe that she will have collected the voices for naught.

 

I think that this experience helped Frankie grow as a reporter.  I think it matured her and helped her to become a more honest reporter.  I feel like it changed her forever as a person.  I know that experiencing these things as Frankie did would have definitely changed me!

"Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body." -
-- Sir Richard Steele
Correspondent
T-Mo
Posts: 51
Registered: ‎08-31-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

I could not agree more, it is important to get all the accurate information out there. Anti-Semitism pre-dates WWI, yet it took on a whole new aspect when Hitler came to power. In 1933, the Nazi party began their attacks against the Jews, leading violent demonstrations against Jewish businesses and boycotting Jewish stores. Hitler passed laws restricting and removing Jews from civil service and excluding them from professional jobs. Jews started emigrating from Germany in 1933 when these restrictions and violent acts started to be enforced. In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were passed. In 1938 the Nazis organized The Night of Broken Glass or Kristallnacht were they shattered the glass windows of Jewish stores, damaging the stores as well as Jewish homes and synagogues. To Hitler and the Nazis, the Jews were to biologically inferior and were to blame for all the troubles of the world. They were, in Hitler’s eyes, racially inferior.

 

Governments all over the world did know early on, as you stated, that these things were occurring. Yet, the Nazis still did, at times, try to cover up their actions. The Red Cross was allowed to visit the Theresienstadt Ghetto in Prague. When they arrived, the Nazis had “spruced” it up, dressing up inmates and stocking bakeries with food and treats that had never existed in the ghetto. Based on what was portrayed to the Red Cross, they reported that the Jews in Theresienstadt were being treated decently despite the difficult war-time conditions. In reality, like the other ghettos and camps, thousands of Jews were dying of starvation and disease.

 

The Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/index.html has an immense amount of history and information pertaining to the Jews during the Holocaust as well as other vital information pertaining to Jewish history and culture.


thewanderingjew wrote:

 

I guess beauty is truly in the mind of the beholder...what you describe as squabbling I believe is searching for the truth. It is important to get all the information out in the open. When people discovered what was going on, there was disbelief. Who could imagine such horror taking place? However, governments did know early on that terrible things were happening in Europe, for years, but officials and normal people stood by and watched and waited. The holocaust began in 1933 with Hitler's rise to power and ended in 1945.
Hopefully, the search for information will not get belligerent, but remain cerebral and apolitical. If you would like more information...here is a page of links.
This might answer your question concerning the response to Hitler if only people had known.
In addition...THE "JEWISH QUESTION": Nazi Policy 1933-1939
"So I believe that I act in the spirit of the Almighty God: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord".

Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf, 1924

As the international economic crisis of the Great Depression spread in the early 1930s, the Nazis fed on the discontent of the lower and middle classes of Germany. Most German voters who brought the Nazis to power assumed their extremism would be tempered by the responsibility and compromise necessary to govern. They were mistaken.

Jews lost their jobs, their citizenship, and all civil rights. When war broke out in 1939, escape was almost impossible. The "Final Solution", the murder of all Jews, became the next phase of Nazi policy.The information came from here.

edited by twj:
jbnie wrote:...To squabble over who was and who was not a hero detracts from horror of what was happening to the Jews...
I was wondering would countries have embraced Hitler if they knew what he was doing to PEOPLE and would the US have entered the war sooner, if we only knew. I was happy that Frankie could see the real story, the people, and chose to report it...

 


 

 


 

 

 

 

Inspired Contributor
Choisya
Posts: 10,782
Registered: ‎10-26-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

[ Edited ]

 

I was not being political TWJ, I was naming two of the prominent families on both sides of the Pond who were involved at the time - there is a list a mile long! To point at the Mufti alone is political and one sided.  Whilst some of these people may not have gone so far as to publicly call for the annihilation of the Jews, the fact that they supported Hitler and knew of his policies so far as the 'Jewish question', cf Mein Kampf, means that they were in effect supporting the idea of a Final Solution, just as the Mufti was.  He was just less subtle.   IMO we must learn to see the culpability of our own people as well as blaming the Arabs. The British, for instance, have much to answer for in the way in which they dealt with the British Mandate in Palestine.  I don't know the period of Israel's history you are referring to when you  say that Israel 'never occupied the land' - the literal (not fictional) exodus after the war was an occupation of Palestinian land under the aegis of the Allies, and of the British in particular, who gave up their mandate.  The Irgun, a militant ('guerrilla') Zionist group, was set up in 1931 to fight for Jewish control of Israel but was eventually absorbed into the Jewish Defence Force. They fought the British for control of Palestine and also committed some terrorist 'atrocities'.  Zionists had been fighting for control of Israel, then called Palestine, since the 1890s when Theodor Herzl published The Jewish State and founded modern Zionism.  The British, who controlled Palestine, eventually took this idea up and in WWI Lord Balfour,British Foreign Secretary, declared that the British 'viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people' and the League of Nations granted this mandate in 1922.   The Arab nations, Palestinians in particular, quite understandably, opposed it.  Following the mandate over 100,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine in the 1920s, and Hitler's policies naturally caused more to flee there in the 1930s so that by the end of WWII, before the official establishment of the State of Israel and the British relinquishing power, 33% of the population were Jewish.  This occupation of Arab lands by Jews was bound to cause conflict - any land which becomes permanently occupied by another people causes long term conflict. The fact that the state of Israel was 'approved' by the Allies and the League of Nations does not take the source of that conflict away.  All I am trying to say is that there are rights and wrongs on both sides and on both sides there are victims.  If I were a Palestinian displaced from my home in 1948 I guess I would still be fighting to get it back but if I were a Jew who had escaped the Holocaust I guess I would be fighting to stay in Israel, where I had found refuge.  I support the State of Israel and have done so since its inception but unfortunately its foundation was always going be the source of conflict in the Middle East and perhaps it always will be:smileysad:.
I do not think the map showing the smallness of Israel is at all relevant - this was the land Jews fought to get, the land supposedly promised by God.  Saying that the Arabs have more land is a red herring - you might just as well say that America has more land so let Palestinians come there! Palestinians want a part of what was Palestine back just as other national groups in other parts of the world want their ancestral land back - which is why dipomats are currently pressing for a two-state solution.  Yes, some militant Arabs want all of the land back but fortunately they are in the minority. Some Turks are still fighting to get Cyprus back but most Turks and Cypriots have reached a compromise. Some Argentinians want to fight Britain over the Falklands but a compromise has been reached.  I wish the same for Israel and Palestine.        
I gave the example of Uris' book to show the sort of publicity which surrounded the setting up of Israel, something in which I was politically involved as a young woman.  I know that it engendered a great deal of good publicity for the Israeli cause and that it was commended for its factual basis. It was easier to get ordinary people involved through a novel and a film than to get them to read learned accounts of the situation.  Uris was well known for the research he conducted when writing his novels and was much respected.  The publication of the book engendered many newspaper and magazine articles about the setting up of the Israeli state and the 'Arab question'.  It also sparked off an interest in the kibbutz movement which became very popular in the UK after the war and in turn generated communes here.         
 
 

thewanderingjew wrote:
I know that you and I come from different vantage points and I don't want to be confrontational but you are forgetting one important fact...for the most part, the Arabs fled because they were told to by the Arabs who declared war on Israel; for the most part, the Jews fled because they were forced to, by Arabs. The tale is totally different. Israel never occupied the land, she defeated countries that declared themselves enemies. How did Britain gain control of the Falklands?  I posted the information for those who wanted to learn more. The videos are long but they show the side of the other victims in this issue.
This is a map showing the relative size of Israel, in blue, when compared to other Arab nations surrounding it. The red is Jordan. The Arabs are fighting for a pinhead of land when they have miles and miles of land to reabsorb their citizens. I am not taking a stand, I am merely pointing out another solution to the refugee problem,at least temporarily. Israel often takes in their refugees.
Also, I don't get my information from a novel which is meant to entertain and often skews the facts. Certainly we all know that after reading this book. Places and events are made up although the setting is historically accurate. Exodus is an historic novel, it is not, a non-fiction account.
In addition, the Bush and Kennedy families both have relatives we can point fingers at as well as at the Royals. They, however, were not asking Hitler to anihilate all Jews in their countries as the Mufti was and I daresay if you look hard enough you will find evidence of anti-semitism in the current White House. Do you remember Reverend Wright? Our President sat and listened to those hate-filled speeches for years. Does that make him an anti-Semite? I think it serves no purpose to point fingers and name names in a political way. The important thing is for the truth to get out, not to make this issue political.
Choisya wrote:

 

For some reason, this history has never been publicized.
There was a lot of publicity in newspapers and newsreels at the time of the setting up of the Israeli state on Palestinian land in 1948 which dealt with the activities of the militant Muslim Brotherhood and  Arab League who opposed this decision by the Allies.  Leon Uris' 1958 book Exodus about these times was an internationa bestseller, as was the 1960s film of the same name.  It is also  important to remember that the Palestinians had an exodus and suffered in these conflicts. Some Palestinians are still in refugee camps. The Arab nations did not agree with the setting up of an Israeli state on what they considered to be Arab land and favoured a settlement in Africa, which was mooted at that time.  This, together with historical prejudices against the Jews, is one of the sources of Middle Eastern conflict in our own times.  The facts around both these exodus are bitterly disputed on both sides.  As for making deals with Hitler, prominent Brits and prominent Americans also did that:smileysad:.  The Mufti's involvement with Hitler was much publicised after the war but the activities of British and American anti-semites, also opposed to the establishment of Israel, was played down as they were often from prominent familes - like our Royals and George Bush's grandfather.          
 


thewanderingjew wrote:

This is an interesting perspective. If you click on the excerpts from the film, "The Forgotten Jews",  you will learn some interesting facts about what happened to the Jews of the Middle East who no longer live in Arab countries. You will learn the whole story and perhaps it will help some people understand what is happening today in the Middle East by looking back to how they were treated by the Arabs, even during World War II. For some reason, this history has never been publicized. If you want to know the whole story, take the time to view these. I am not taking sides, I am merely asking you to learn more of the facts about the Middle East before you make judgments. You will have to keep an open mind to view these.

 

one

two

three

four

five

 

In case the links don't work, these are the websites:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nwI2hzPjrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBHc0yvtrDw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=969cMq8rIzc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYkQlTfWIvc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TJfEf5UMSI&feature=related

 

This video explains that the Arab Mufti met with Hitler to encourage him to continue his policies in the Arab world.


 

 



 

 

Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
0 Kudos

Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

There are many points that you mention that I agree with but you forgot to mention that the Jews were also uprooted from their homes in Arab countries and they cannot return either.The Arabs forced them out. The Arabs declared war. Whether or not you believe they were justified is irrelevant.

For some reason, although you say there is wrong on both sides, a point I will concede, in the end, I seem to feel as if you are pointing fingers at Israel, criticizing any facts I cite with facts that sometimes seem to have no other purpose but to blame the Jews and Israel or confuse the issue by broadening it. The map I provided was part of a larger group of maps which explain the Middle East from another perspective, in simple terms.

I know that you were there and have far greater knowledge of the history than I do. I would like to learn from you in a peaceful situation. Let's do it in a pm, instead of on these threads.

 


Choisya wrote:

 

I was not being political TWJ, I was naming two of the prominent families on both sides of the Pond who were involved at the time - there is a list a mile long! To point at the Mufti alone is political and one sided.  Whilst some of these people may not have gone so far as to publicly call for the annihilation of the Jews, the fact that they supported Hitler and knew of his policies so far as the 'Jewish question', cf Mein Kampf, means that they were in effect supporting the idea of a Final Solution, just as the Mufti was.  He was just less subtle.   IMO we must learn to see the culpability of our own people as well as blaming the Arabs. The British, for instance, have much to answer for in the way in which they dealt with the British Mandate in Palestine.  I don't know the period of Israel's history you are referring to when you  say that Israel 'never occupied the land' - the literal (not fictional) exodus after the war was an occupation of Palestinian land under the aegis of the Allies, and of the British in particular, who gave up their mandate.  The Irgun, a militant ('guerrilla') Zionist group, was set up in 1931 to fight for Jewish control of Israel but was eventually absorbed into the Jewish Defence Force. They fought the British for control of Palestine and also committed some terrorist 'atrocities'.  Zionists had been fighting for control of Israel, then called Palestine, since the 1890s when Theodor Herzl published The Jewish State and founded modern Zionism.  The British, who controlled Palestine, eventually took this idea up and in WWI Lord Balfour,British Foreign Secretary, declared that the British 'viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people' and the League of Nations granted this mandate in 1922.   The Arab nations, Palestinians in particular, quite understandably, opposed it.  Following the mandate over 100,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine in the 1920s, and Hitler's policies naturally caused more to flee there in the 1930s so that by the end of WWII, before the official establishment of the State of Israel and the British relinquishing power, 33% of the population were Jewish.  This occupation of Arab lands by Jews was bound to cause conflict - any land which becomes permanently occupied by another people causes long term conflict. The fact that the state of Israel was 'approved' by the Allies and the League of Nations does not take the source of that conflict away.  All I am trying to say is that there are rights and wrongs on both sides and on both sides there are victims.  If I were a Palestinian displaced from my home in 1948 I guess I would still be fighting to get it back but if I were a Jew who had escaped the Holocaust I guess I would be fighting to stay in Israel, where I had found refuge.  I support the State of Israel and have done so since its inception but unfortunately its foundation was always going be the source of conflict in the Middle East and perhaps it always will be:smileysad:.
I do not think the map showing the smallness of Israel is at all relevant - this was the land Jews fought to get, the land supposedly promised by God.  Saying that the Arabs have more land is a red herring - you might just as well say that America has more land so let Palestinians come there! Palestinians want a part of what was Palestine back just as other national groups in other parts of the world want their ancestral land back - which is why dipomats are currently pressing for a two-state solution.  Yes, some militant Arabs want all of the land back but fortunately they are in the minority. Some Turks are still fighting to get Cyprus back but most Turks and Cypriots have reached a compromise. Some Argentinians want to fight Britain over the Falklands but a compromise has been reached.  I wish the same for Israel and Palestine.        
I gave the example of Uris' book to show the sort of publicity which surrounded the setting up of Israel, something in which I was politically involved as a young woman.  I know that it engendered a great deal of good publicity for the Israeli cause and that it was commended for its factual basis. It was easier to get ordinary people involved through a novel and a film than to get them to read learned accounts of the situation.  Uris was well known for the research he conducted when writing his novels and was much respected.  The publication of the book engendered many newspaper and magazine articles about the setting up of the Israeli state and the 'Arab question'.  It also sparked off an interest in the kibbutz movement which became very popular in the UK after the war and in turn generated communes here.         
 
 

thewanderingjew wrote:
I know that you and I come from different vantage points and I don't want to be confrontational but you are forgetting one important fact...for the most part, the Arabs fled because they were told to by the Arabs who declared war on Israel; for the most part, the Jews fled because they were forced to, by Arabs. The tale is totally different. Israel never occupied the land, she defeated countries that declared themselves enemies. How did Britain gain control of the Falklands?  I posted the information for those who wanted to learn more. The videos are long but they show the side of the other victims in this issue.
This is a map showing the relative size of Israel, in blue, when compared to other Arab nations surrounding it. The red is Jordan. The Arabs are fighting for a pinhead of land when they have miles and miles of land to reabsorb their citizens. I am not taking a stand, I am merely pointing out another solution to the refugee problem,at least temporarily. Israel often takes in their refugees.
Also, I don't get my information from a novel which is meant to entertain and often skews the facts. Certainly we all know that after reading this book. Places and events are made up although the setting is historically accurate. Exodus is an historic novel, it is not, a non-fiction account.

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

 

Your mention of Therisienstad, made me remember the hidden synagogue I visited there. My NJ rabbi arranged it for us. It was not open to the public at the time. When I googled it, I also came upon this link which has images from it.
twj
T-Mo wrote:

edited by twj....The Red Cross was allowed to visit the Theresienstadt Ghetto in Prague. When they arrived, the Nazis had “spruced” it up, dressing up inmates and stocking bakeries with food and treats that had never existed in the ghetto. Based on what was portrayed to the Red Cross, they reported that the Jews in Theresienstadt were being treated decently despite the difficult war-time conditions. In reality, like the other ghettos and camps, thousands of Jews were dying of starvation and disease.

 

The Jewish Virtual Library http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/index.html has an immense amount of history and information pertaining to the Jews during the Holocaust as well as other vital information pertaining to Jewish history and culture.


 

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Choisya
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

 

I was trying to broaden it TWJ because it is a very broad and controversial subject and I do not think any purpose is served on these boards by one p.o.v. being put forward.  If someone had been putting forward totally the Arab point of view I would have waded in on behalf fof Israel.  However, one of the problems we always face on these boards when Middle Eastern affairs are being discussed or referred to is that there is rarely an Arab or Muslim here to put that p.o.v. whereas there have always been Jews and Christians here to put theirs. I just like to see balance.   (I don't particularly want to discuss it further.)


thewanderingjew wrote:

There are many points that you mention that I agree with but you forgot to mention that the Jews were also uprooted from their homes in Arab countries and they cannot return either.The Arabs forced them out. The Arabs declared war. Whether or not you believe they were justified is irrelevant.

For some reason, although you say there is wrong on both sides, a point I will concede, in the end, I seem to feel as if you are pointing fingers at Israel, criticizing any facts I cite with facts that sometimes seem to have no other purpose but to blame the Jews and Israel or confuse the issue by broadening it. The map I provided was part of a larger group of maps which explain the Middle East from another perspective, in simple terms.

I know that you were there and have far greater knowledge of the history than I do. I would like to learn from you in a peaceful situation. Let's do it in a pm, instead of on these threads.

 

 

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Choisya
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Folks may find this Guardian report about the British Conservative party's links with current anti-semitic parties in Eastern Europe of interest. 

Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

 

There are many in the US who might say that the far left has reached out to make "noxious new alliances" (a quote from your guardian link about conservatives) with countries and groups that are anti-semitic, (that is if the media police don't get to them first) :smileywink:.
If one wants, one can find a document to prove anything one wants, here and abroad. The one I linked is about liberals rather than conservatives. I think it is necessary to look at several sources, on all sides of an issue, before deciding what to believe about anything.

Choisya wrote:

Folks may find this Guardian report about the British Conservative party's links with current anti-semitic parties in Eastern Europe of interest. 


 

 

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emers0207
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Jim Holland tells Frankie she doesn't have a story. Why not? Do you agree? Is Frankie a "collector" on this trip rather than a reporter?

 

I think Frankie most definitely have a story and that she is reporting.  I think that sometimes a story is so terrible that there aren't proper words to tell it.  I think in those cases, as Frankie realizes, the only way to tell the story is to lay bare the victims so that all are forced to see the devastation they have brought on.

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floreader
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Frankie is surprised to find that the Jewish refugees' circumstances are much more dire and desperate than she could have ever imagined.  I don't think Frankie was prepared for the enormity of it all.

 

She uses the recorder to try to capture each indvidual story, even if the voices overlap.  Some of the people are fearful and suspicious of the recorder.  Others want to get their story out there, so that the rest of the world will know what's going on.

 

As a reader, I found the little bits and pieces of these life stores heartbreaking and overwhelming.  It really brought the Germans' treatment of the Jews up close and personal, as little individual stories.  I don't agree with Jim Holland that Frankie doesn't have a story.  Frankie's "collecting" stories has a larger impact of reporting the overall story of the the Jews. 

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Choisya
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Re: TWJ : Birth of Israel/Palestine.

[ Edited ]
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dj5775
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Re: Reporting the Story of the Jews

Frankie was affected by Harriet and her story she was trying to tell about the Jews, she now feels a desperation to tell it in her place. Her recordings of the voices made the people that she reported on more real. She was shocked at the crowds she came across and the ones who were left behind. She wants so much to get everyone's stories and voices and becomes attached to some and those memories have stuck with her.

ct