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thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

 


EiLvReedn wrote:

OK this is about my 4th or 5th first look review and I still can't figure out how to get my reply to show w/ another person's post. My reply above was re: the Post from fordmg on page 1. Sorry!


click on reply at the bottom of the message you are answering. at the right of the reply box, in a greenish square it says quote. if you click on that, the message you are replying to will appear in the box. good luck.

 

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lrloveless71
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Registered: ‎12-09-2009
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

How would you describe Karee as a son, as a brother, as a farmer, as a husband?

I think that Karee is a perfectionist. As a son he was trying to please his father by working hard and staying out of his way. As a brother he wanted to work hard along side them and was loyal to them until they left. As a farmer he loved his farm, the animals, the equipment and the land were cherished and treated with the highest f regard, possibly even higher regard than his family. I think he felt abandon by his brothers when they wanted to marry the girls and betrayed because they wanted him to lose the race. As a husband I feel like he loved his wife but maybe did not know how to love or be a better husband because he never saw examples of that as a child.

 

 Can you understand the loyalty he showed his father in the race against Graciela or in the fight after? Was it loyalty at all? I think he showed loyalty to his father in the race because he honestly tried to win. I think the loss however and the resulting fight may have been the end of his loyalty to his father and his brothers. From then on his attitude was more of responsibility and work ethic than loyalty to his father or anyone.

 

How would you describe any of the following influential men of Lavaca County: Vaclav, Dalton, Villasenor, Dvorak, Father Carew?

 

It seems to me that all these men were hard working, although in those times it was a necessity to work hard.

 

What are your impressions of each of Carrel's brothers? I feel like Karel's brother were looking for an easy out and were pleased at an opportunity to have arranged marriages that would afford them beautiful wives, land and prosperity all at the expense of the honor or pride of both their father and their brother Karee.

 

What kind of a person is Sophie, Karel's wife? Do we get a clear picture of her so far? I think Sofie is portrayed as a hardworking and dedicated wife and mother. In the beginning you believe that she may either be naive of her husbands straying or intentionally ignoring it. In the end she stands up for herself and expects his loyalty.

 

Do we get a more distinct impression of Elizka Novotny? I think she comes to also expect more from Karee and when she realizes it may never happen becomes less willing to serve him.

 

What are your impressions of Graciela? Graciela is an independent spirit. However she is fiercely loyal to her father and his expectations.

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HSheridan
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Registered: ‎05-03-2010
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

How would you describe Karel as a son, as a brother, as a farmer, as a husband? Can you understand the loyalty he showed his father in the race against Graciela or in the fight after? Was it loyalty at all?

 I think Karel wants approval and love from his father.  I think before the race he felt like it was him and his brothers against their father since they were all required to do the same hard labor.  Karel is a good farmer he is proud of what he can do with the land.  As a Husband Karel falls short of what an ideal husband is.  He doesn't seem to love his wife even though she seems to love him very much.  I think Karel didn't show loyalty to his father in the fight it seemed more like he was fighting his brothers because of their betrayal.

 

How would you describe any of the following influential men of Lavaca County: Vaclav, Dalton, Villasenor, Dvorak, Father Carew?

 Vaclav used his children to get ahead for no other reason than that he could.  I have no opinion on Dalton or Dvorak.  Villasenor seems to think it is better to be feared than respected.  Father Carew seems a strange character to me so far besides watching the race from a distance he doesn't seem to expand the plot any.

 

What are your impressions of each of Karel's brothers?

 They all seem willing to leave Karel behind to better their own lives without a thought for him.

 

What kind of a person is Sophie, Karel's wife? Do we get a clear picture of her so far?

 Sophie seems to love Karel very much and she seems willing to stay with him even when he is distant and cold. 

 

Do we get a more distinct impression of Elizka Novotny?

 I think she is in love with Karel and will do anything to be with him even if it is only as his mistress.

 

What are your impressions of Graciela?

I don't get a clear impression of Graciela.  If she genuinely liked Karel I think she would have let him win the race but again we don't really know much about her or what she was told or what her childhood was like...maybe she has just as bad a home life as Karel and this is her way out.

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hookedonbooks09
Posts: 128
Registered: ‎02-04-2009
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

Oh, LittlePig, I really like this analogy of the physical bentness and the psychological or personality bentness!

 

How true this is.  Perhaps looking at things from this indirect angle all their life  has made them see things differently than if they were whole in their stature.

 

Barb

 


LittlePig wrote:

How would you describe Karel as a son, as a brother, as a farmer, as a husband? Can you understand the loyalty he showed his father in the race against Graciela or in the fight after? Was it loyalty at all?

 

Karel, like his brothers, is bent in all aspects of his life.  His entire life has been shaped by his father's inability to love or express affection.  Karel seems to want to be a good son, brother and husband, but he is incapable of being true to anything or anyone.  His years of being hitched to his father's yoke have made him a different kind of man than he was meant to be.


 

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. ~Groucho Marx
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Jennmarie68
Posts: 127
Registered: ‎02-09-2009

Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

You know, I was just thinking, off the cuff, am I the only one who thinks that there was a lot of promiscuity for that time and place?  Maybe I am assuming that moral standards were stricter then just because I don't know any better. My dad said the only real smart person knows they have a lot left to learn...maybe I forgot that message.
What if they just didn't discuss it as openly as we do  today, but it was prevalent behavior behind closed doors? Maybe these characters were simply doing what everyone else did, in those times. Maybe promiscuity was common practice. I am just thinking "out loud".


 

I think that we don't think of that time as being one of promiscuity as it is today, however I don't know why this is. They always say prostitution is the oldest profession, and I think that is a true statement. Even though the actions that are occurring in this book aren't how we think of prostitution they are just as promiscuous. I think it is natural to look back and think better of the past, especially because we want to think good of humanity. In reality I think these kinds of things were just as commonplace back during this timeframe (and all throughout history) as they are now, but because we are actually living through this time and we see it first hand it seems more real to us. Look at westerns, there is almost always a whore house in them, which I think shows that promiscuity has always existed. 

 

I just think that it is a human want to not think bad of the past. Not that I don't do the same thing, but when you stop and really think about it, the things we are facing now aren't really all that different in context then they were in the past, we just have a different viewpoint which makes them seem more real to us now, and the way the world has advanced makes the actual execution of these kinds of things differently. Maybe it is these differences between today and the past that makes it seems as if these kinds of things weren't commonplace then.  

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Eleanor Roosevelt
Inspired Bibliophile
thewanderingjew
Posts: 2,247
Registered: ‎12-18-2007
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

You may be onto something. The book evolves by going back and forth in time and paraphrasing George Santayana, if we don't remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it.

 


Jennmarie68 wrote:

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

You know, I was just thinking, off the cuff, am I the only one who thinks that there was a lot of promiscuity for that time and place?  Maybe I am assuming that moral standards were stricter then just because I don't know any better. My dad said the only real smart person knows they have a lot left to learn...maybe I forgot that message.
What if they just didn't discuss it as openly as we do  today, but it was prevalent behavior behind closed doors? Maybe these characters were simply doing what everyone else did, in those times. Maybe promiscuity was common practice. I am just thinking "out loud".


 

I think that we don't think of that time as being one of promiscuity as it is today, however I don't know why this is. They always say prostitution is the oldest profession, and I think that is a true statement. Even though the actions that are occurring in this book aren't how we think of prostitution they are just as promiscuous. I think it is natural to look back and think better of the past, especially because we want to think good of humanity. In reality I think these kinds of things were just as commonplace back during this timeframe (and all throughout history) as they are now, but because we are actually living through this time and we see it first hand it seems more real to us. Look at westerns, there is almost always a whore house in them, which I think shows that promiscuity has always existed. 

 

I just think that it is a human want to not think bad of the past. Not that I don't do the same thing, but when you stop and really think about it, the things we are facing now aren't really all that different in context then they were in the past, we just have a different viewpoint which makes them seem more real to us now, and the way the world has advanced makes the actual execution of these kinds of things differently. Maybe it is these differences between today and the past that makes it seems as if these kinds of things weren't commonplace then.  


 

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sarah_in_ca
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

Graciela is a product of her father and of the times.She adores her father because he insists on it and probably has been told time and again, as have her sisters, that she will marry the person he chooses.  Her father has 3 daughters to marry off an Vaclav has 3 sons--perfect?  He seems to think so!

 

Graciela's attraction to Karel seems genuine to me, even when she visits his barn to have a closer look at Whiskey.  I think she'd been told even then that Karel would not be the one she'd marry.  Her life was controlled from day one by her father, even on into marriage and children.  Karel was the one to experience freedom in that sense.

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Alnilan
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Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

I agree with Sarah (above post) on how the younger characters in this book experienced freedom or the lack of it based on their family expectations.

However I do not understand why Villasenor would be so keen in marry his daughters to a family like the Vaclavs. They seem to come from very different social levels and it is hard to believe that a wealthy latin man would give his daughters to boys who plough the land, no matter how extensive and valuable those lands are.

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NikiGunn
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Registered: ‎01-28-2010
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters


Alnilan wrote:

However I do not understand why Villasenor would be so keen in marry his daughters to a family like the Vaclavs. They seem to come from very different social levels and it is hard to believe that a wealthy latin man would give his daughters to boys who plough the land, no matter how extensive and valuable those lands are.


I think that the boys didn't have much would be something Villasenor could always hold over their heads -- the life they had was due to him and he could take it away. His girls would side with him. It was probably also for a different kind of social status, a way into the white world, a world of the majority, kind of like those marriages between people with titles and those with money in Jane Austen's books.

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deannafrances
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

When one of the posters said in that time period, people were not as promiscious, I believe that there may be some truth to that.  Although all through the ages there have been stories of love affairs between "incorrect"  parties--say Lancelot and Gwen.  I think that one of the hardest problems a writer faces is not imbuing the history he is writing with the mores and morals of the time he/she is currently living in.

 

 

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Paul_Hochman
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Registered: ‎03-23-2007
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

I always chuckle when sex and the practice of it are correlated to a certain time period.

 

Perhaps it wasn't talked about as openly through the ages, but sex in every degree and form -- which includes promiscuity -- is as old as the human race and examples of it have been cited not only through oral tradition, but from the Bible to the Greeks and Romans to the Internet Age.

 

 

 

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nfmgirl
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

 

 


thewanderingjew wrote:

 

Do we get a more distinct impression of Elizka Novotny?

 

Here we have a woman who seems to have fallen from grace. She uses her body to obtain what she needs and doesn't seem to respect the fact that Sophie has just had a child as she pleasures Karel. I felt sorry for her as I felt that Karel used her as his father used animals. She merely served a need.



Ahhhhh....I think you hit on something here. I kept trying to understand the correlation between Elizka smelling of a horse, and the theme of horses in this book, even Karel and his brothers being worked like horses. But Elizka was worked like a horse, too. Like a mare offered up to a stallion out for stud, she was just used for her purpose.

 


Heather
http://cerebralgirl.blogspot.com/
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FireRaven9
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

I think Sophie is a woman typically of most in her time. She doesn't seem to want to ruffle any feathers because that type of behavior wasn't favored in women. I also think that maybe she was like that because she had children that needed looking after, and she depended on Karel for support. It wasn't so easy to run off with children in those days and be able to support oneself and children.

 

However, I don't think she will tolerate Karel's indiscretions forever. She doesn't seem too happy with him, and seems to know what he's been up to.

 

We don't really get a good picture of what Sophie looks like, but I would say she would have to be beautiful. After all, she did catch Karel's attention immediately at the auction. I just think Graciela was his first "love" and so she is magnified.

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JaneM
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters


Paul_Hochman wrote:

I always chuckle when sex and the practice of it are correlated to a certain time period.

 

Perhaps it wasn't talked about as openly through the ages, but sex in every degree and form -- which includes promiscuity -- is as old as the human race and examples of it have been cited not only through oral tradition, but from the Bible to the Greeks and Romans to the Internet Age.

 

 

 


I agree, Paul.  I remember there were several in the First Look club who thought there was unusual sexual openness in the book The Postmistress and that was during WWII. 

Jane M.
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Paul_Hochman
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

 


JaneM wrote:

Paul_Hochman wrote:

I always chuckle when sex and the practice of it are correlated to a certain time period.

 

Perhaps it wasn't talked about as openly through the ages, but sex in every degree and form -- which includes promiscuity -- is as old as the human race and examples of it have been cited not only through oral tradition, but from the Bible to the Greeks and Romans to the Internet Age.

 

 

 


I agree, Paul.  I remember there were several in the First Look club who thought there was unusual sexual openness in the book The Postmistress and that was during WWII. 


I was thinking of that exact conversation when I typed this post, Jane :smileywink:

 

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BooksToTheCeiling
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Characters

How would you describe Karel as a son, as a brother, as a farmer, as a husband? Can you understand the loyalty he showed his father in the race against Graciela or in the fight after? Was it loyalty at all?

I think Karel does the best he can having been raised the way he was. As a son, I think he is always looking for the acceptance and love he was never shown. As a farmer, he is a hard worker always listing chores that needed to be done. Being a farmer is what he knows best.

 

What kind of a person is Sophie, Karel's wife? Do we get a clear picture of her so far?

Sophie is an intelligent person who looks forward instead of back. She thinks through things before she acts, as in her discussion with Karel at the end of the novel. She knows how to communicate and she showed this when she said to him on p. 299, "What I want, Karel, is for you to think about him if you have to."...... "That's not what I'm saying. What I mean is, I want you to try thinking about him when thinking about me isn't enough."

 

Do we get a more distinct impression of Elizka Novotny?

I don't understand her. She is a strong woman, running her own business yet she lets Karel use her while his baby is being born, and apparently has been with him before. Later she is seen holding the baby in quiet companionship with Sophie at Thom's house after having delivered medicine. She is a mix of unlikely things.

 

What are your impressions of Graciela?

She seems to be spoiled, yet under her father's rule as surely as Karel and his brothers are under their father's rule. Even though is didn't say so I think she resented being used by her father as an enticement. Her seduction of Karel was a bit of rebellion and one she had to know would be known by her father.