Wake of Forgiveness: Early Chapters until "Meander Scars," (p.132)

[dclement04]

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What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

Unfortunately for Vaclav many people will not feel sympathy towards him because of the way he treats his son, but I do feel a little sympathy towards him. When someone finally finds "the one" that they love and "can stand" (as Vaclav puts it) it is a hard thing to cope with if you lose them. So I do feel for him that he lost his wife and that a part of him died when she died. That would explain why he does treat his sons with such cruelty, but that isn't really an excuse as to why he has to treat them badly.

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Yes! Their relationships are backwards. They treat the horses and land better than their human relationships. Vaclav uses his sons instead of the horses to plow the land; I think because he just has become a bitter man.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

If anyone knows about the relationship between the brothers please let me know because what I have gotten out of the book so far is that they aren't really close. I don't think the book really describes

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

This was a little confusing to me because i noticed that it starts at in February 1895, March 1910, December 1924 then goes back to March 1910....why did it do this? I'm confused.

[DarcyPDX]

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fordmg wrote:

Sympathy for Vaclav?  I don't think so.  He did not just turn bitter after his wife died.  This was his personality all the time.   There just was not a mother to blunt the actions for her children anymore.

Relationship between the brothers?  Not much of one.  The three older brothers seem to be separated from Karel.  Karel seems to be the different one.  Maybe the brothers als blame him for the loss of their mother.  They certainly didn't care about Karel when they saw a way to get out from under Vaclav's torture.  It was every man for himself.  That seems to be the whole environment of the story.

Karel dreams of his mother, because he has nothing else.  He doesn't have memories, and he fells responsible for her death.

Chapter time shifts -   This is a little difficult.  I understand the use of flash backs, but as I scan forward, I see that the story continues to shift between 1910 and 1924.  I continue to go back and check to see where the story is as I am reading.

MG

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I too didn't find Vaclav sympathetic.  By his own admission (on p. 5), he defines himself as bitter and hard before and after his marriage to Klara.  But we also know nothing about his background.  If we knew he'd been hitched to a plow and whipped by his father or lost his mother while she gave birth to him and blamed himself for her death , would our view of him change?  Perhaps he is passing on the abuse of his childhood to the next generation.  But Machart chooses not to give us a glimpse into Vaclav's past.

I think the brothers do have a strong relationship with each other.  It's not necessarily a healthy or loving one, but it is significant.  Hard to believe that children who have been literally harnessed to a plow so much that their spines are deformed wouldn't have strong ties to each other.  I think symbolically Machart underscores their connection by the cant of their heads - two left-leaning and two right-leaning so they form living parentheses around their shared experiences.

--Darcy

[liljulsie]

I have had a hard time reading the begining of this book as I despise most of the characters so far. It also is made difficult because of the time changes as in that its not a straight forward story. I would find a better description of Vaclav after Klara's death as unmitigated cruelty and heartlessness. I am sure that he was cruel even before Klara died. As the main character seemes to be Karel, I have found him to be not much different than his father in his thinking but different in his actions. I may have been able to like him or atleast feel pity for him until he kicked the cow for a second time.

I love the authors descriptiveness of scenery, the feel of the weather it is so well done that I can feel it. So far this it what has kept me reading. 

For example quoted from the book

All of the cool afternoon, a steadywind has swept across the brittle pastureland and bristled throuh the needles of the spindly creekside pines,and now, with the two finish-line fires whipped alive and spitting embers, a sliver of moon flashes behind the low scrim of clouds with all the coy promise of a womans's pale skin showing itself beneath the sheer quise of worn stocking.  

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Rachel-K wrote:

Please use any of the following questions to help dive into our discussion of The Wake of Forgiveness, or post your own thoughts and questions for the group!  

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

Karel has a dreamed up relationship to his mother. How would you describe his thoughts of her?

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

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Rachel-K wrote:

Please use any of the following questions to help dive into our discussion of The Wake of Forgiveness, or post your own thoughts and questions for the group!  

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

Karel has a dreamed up relationship to his mother. How would you describe his thoughts of her?

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

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[liljulsie]

Thank you I completly missed that.

[Rachel-K]

Certainly, Darcy, I agree. We need a "favorite passages" thread up just to share some of our pleasure in these lines.  

Rachel

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DarcyPDX wrote:

..........

You didn't ask this question, but as a former English literature major in college, I HAVE to mention the absolutely beautiful prose in this book.  What a treat to the ear and mind it was.  Lines like: "These were the communal truths, the recollections the landowners and townsmen shared the way they kept in common a constant worry over rainfall and boll weevils and cotton futures."  or "...on the rare day that Vaclav Skala would gather his boys behind the barn...the very earth would cease, in the boys' minds, its slow, secretive turning, and they'd stand eager and mute, dumbstruck by the anticipation of their father's words."  Wow!  So evocative and so elegant!

--Darcy

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[gackie]

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

The only sympathy I have for this man is the loss of his wife other then that he is a terrible person.

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

This is where Karel and Vaclav are so much alike they care so much for the land and animals. The only difference I noticed between the two of them are that Karel likes to play with his children.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

Maybe when Karel was younger, but when they are older they didn't seem very brotherly.

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

At first didn't care for the shifts in time but I got used to it after awhile.

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

 Karel thought that the horses should have been pampered more and doesn't see anything wrong with putting a horses welfare above a humans.

[thecatsmeowAM]

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

Vaclav is a bitter man and horrible person and father.  I feel no sympathy for him thus far, and after watching the cruelty towards his children, doubt I could ever feel sympathy for him.  His children have life long emotional and physical problems which I feel are directly inherited from Vaclav.

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

I think Karel has shown tenderness towards the horses, but I do not see that from Vaclav.  He seems unnecessarily cruel to the horses in my opinion and uses fear to get them to perform the way he wishes.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

At the beginning, I thought there was a closeness in the brothers because they all seem to be mistreated equally by Vaclav.  So the horse race outcome and the brawl were a surprise to me and I was quite disappointed that Karel's brothers did that to him. 

Karel has a dreamed up relationship to his mother. How would you describe his thoughts of her?

His dreams and thoughts seem to be of a close and touching relationship with her.  Since he have never experienced affection from anyone, he dreams of it with his mother.

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I like that the story jumps ahead 15 years and then goes back to show the reader why things have become that way.  For example, I disliked Karel a lot when the book jumped to 1924, but then understood better after reading the next section from 1910.

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

So far, I think that Karel knows no other way of life, so he doesn't think that his father's treatment is wrong per se.  It's "just they way it is" and he accepts that.  Maybe it would be too hard for him to really see the treatment for what it is, child abuse and hatred from his own father.  So it is easier for him to question the treatment of an animal, than to question the treatment towards himself and his brothers, by their own father.

[Popper19]

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What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I only found sympathy for him when his wife died.  It seemed that he cared deeply for his sons when he took his wife's dead body to the hay loft to spare the boys seeing their dead mother.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

We do see a bit of a relationship between the brothers; late night discussions about the potential brides; "kind" words by Eduard to Karel after losing the race.

Karel has a dreamed up relationship to his mother. How would you describe his thoughts of her?

I just know that this breaks my heart.

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I am loving going back and forth between the time periods.  I like to be kept in suspense and piece things together throughout a book.  I think this tactic is used well so far in the book.

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[meme1]

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Rachel-K wrote:

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I wonder what had made him a "bitter and hard" man/boy before he was softened by Klara.  Losing her would only compound the causes so that he returns to this outlook.  I find it difficult to feel any sympathy for Vaclav at this time.

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Both men show care and concern for the land and the horses, but not to their other animals or humans.  I almost understand Karel's attitude because it's all he's known, though he seems to realize that he is missing love and affection because he "dreams" of his mother and their interaction.  Karel also truly wants to please his father and seems to want positive feedback from him,

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

I wanted to believe there was until the fateful race and its aftermath.  Were they so jealous because they perceived that Karel was receiving special treatment from Vaclav or were they bitter because they perceive that Karel was the cause of the loss of their mother?  

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

The shifts don't really cause me problems in understanding the story.  I just prefer to get a story as it happens rather than with a flashback style.

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

Nope.  Karel's way of life and the emphasis on what is important is so implanted into his way of thinking, he can not look at people's differences and appreciate them.

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[scnole]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Please use any of the following questions to help dive into our discussion of The Wake of Forgiveness, or post your own thoughts and questions for the group!  

What kind of a man is Baklava? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Clara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

He is a bitter sadistic man.    So far I don't feel any sympathy for him.   

Do we see Baklava and Karee show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

I haven't seen any tenderness.   Even in the race, Karee believes the horse wants the whip- maybe this is the only way the family has showed any attention to the horse by whipping him.  

It was really hard to read how Carrel's neck had been affected by  his having been used as a plow horse.   

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?   I don't see any relationship so far. 

Karee has a dreamed up relationship to his mother. How would you describe his thoughts of her?

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I had to keep looking back at the time to understand what was taking place. 

At the end of this first section, Karee expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this?  None whatsoever.   I guess Karle sees this as a way of life that humans are used as plow horses - and horses are used as a source of pride.

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[timetravel]

Although I am well into reading the book, I'm finding it hard to get the beginning out of my mind to move on with the story.  I keep going back to the boys with the crooked necks because their father treasured his horses more than his children.  (and to think our children feel deprived if they don't have their own cell phone by the time they are 11)

[coffee_luvr]

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What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

Vaclav is a hard man.  His ranch and the acquiring of more land is what seems to drive him.  I felt sympathy for Vaclav briefly when on pg. 5 he looks at his hands which are creased and calloused deeply and stained with the blood of the only woman he's ever been fond of.

But then in the very next paragraph we find out that the absence of his wife's presence in his life returns him to the person he was/is deep inside.  He values his horses that race more than his children!  He treats his boys more like livestock.

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Yes, especially in Karel's case.  Not sure that Vaclav shows tenderness to anything.  Not sure he is even capable of tenderness.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers? 

I think the relationship they have is a relationship of enduring and living in the same abusive situation.  Other than that, I do not see a bond between the brothers at this point in the book.

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

Karel's perspective is based on what he knows.  In his world a fine animal is valued higher than the children.  It makes sense that he would find it strange that someone else's approach would be different.  In his world, this is all he knows.

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[JSkellington]

I found Vaclav to be a poor father. I do not think that he was necessarily a bad person he just did not understand children or how to deal with them. He overall seems to be a self serving person and only has concern for his "things" and how he can gain more. I believe he is the way he is because of his upbringing. In those times things were so different from now it is hard to see it from their point of view. Children had to work in order for the family to survive in a lot of cases. Society today has no concept of this. So far the book has been very entertaining and looking forward to reading more this week.

[thewanderingjew]

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JSkellington wrote:

I found Vaclav to be a poor father. I do not think that he was necessarily a bad person he just did not understand children or how to deal with them. He overall seems to be a self serving person and only has concern for his "things" and how he can gain more. I believe he is the way he is because of his upbringing. In those times things were so different from now it is hard to see it from their point of view. Children had to work in order for the family to survive in a lot of cases. Society today has no concept of this. So far the book has been very entertaining and looking forward to reading more this week.

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Hi,

While I agree that there were certainly times in our history when children worked in order for the family to survive, on farms and in factories, I don't think it justifies the practice of abusing minors. Our child labor laws were enacted to prevent the abuses of these children.

Vaclav didn't merely require his children to work, he treated them like farm animals, yoking them to the equipment like horses or oxen. Also, I believe he could probably have easily afforded to have animals do the work his sons provided. He was the biggest landowner.

He was a good father until his wife died so I think he did know that there was a right and wrong way to raise his children and that he did know the difference. I think when she died, his heart died. He reverted, he says, to what he was before he met her and I can only think he must have been one awful human being. No matter what anyone's background is, it is not a legitimate excuse to mistreat anyone and I believe that it is unforgivable to be as cruel and heartless as he became.

[pen21]

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nfam wrote:

The characters in this book are not really likeable. Valclav is a sadistic tormentor of his sons. The sons seem to be headed the same way. I found the fight scene between the family very explainable after the way the boys had been treated. 

The neighbors also seemed cruel. They enjoyed the fight. It was their way or getting back at the Skala's. Truthfully, everyone seemed bent on revenge of one sort or another, or if not that taking out their incrustation at their poverty on anyone who was slightly better off. 

I did find the skipping about in years difficult for the story. I though the author sacrificed a great amount of tension by having us already know what was going to happen. The race was tense and well writter, but we already knew the outcome. 

In general, the book is well written. The descriptions bring us into the hardscrabble life of the people. I think the author did a good job with that. 

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I was also confused with the "skipping about in years". It took me most of the first section to get things straight.  I also like what you said about how cruel the neighbors were. It is well written and gets one involved in the characters and how flawed so many of them are.

[PiperMurphy]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Please use any of the following questions to help dive into our discussion of The Wake of Forgiveness, or post your own thoughts and questions for the group!  

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I'm finding Vaclav to be a very interesting and complex character even if he isn't likeable. He said that Klara was the only woman that he was "fond of", not "loved". This is an interesting statement. I suspect that the two emotions are one and the same to him. Possibly he has never known love so that fondness is as close as he can get. It seems like Klara gave him humanity. When he lost her, he either didn't care how he behaved, or he reverted to a previous behavior. At one point it said that he was as apt to spit on a woman's shoes as he was to miss them. He lost what mattered to him and no one else matters. The last sentence of the first chapter hints at his transformation:  "He nodded and spit tobacco juice into the hard earth near the porch, and then, without washing his hands or taking off his boots, he stepped into the house where, for all but one wailing newborn, as in the pasture and the hedgerows, even hunger had been plowed under by fear." I thought that this meant that his children had already feared him to a point, but know he had become something unknown to them.

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I love the time shifts. They add to the mystery, and I just have that many more questions. I'm having fun speculating about what has happened to get us to that point. I also like getting the answers in pieces.

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

This is one of the things that I have puzzled over from the beginning, why are the brothers pulling the plow? I think that kids only know what they are taught and experience in their own environment until they are old enough to go out and make their own experiences. It was normal to Karel to pull the plow, while his father saved his horses because he knew nothing else. He was the youngest. But how did Vaclav make the three older brothers pull the plow? They have a different set of experiences. Right know I'm thinking that it may be a punishment. I can't wait to find out.

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[annemd]

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I see Vaclav as a squanderer, a wastrel.  He had so much, and failed to properly value it.

I cannot feel sympathy for him because things could have been so much better for him.  He could have bonded with his boys, used all their skills and talents to make a better life, to give one another comfort. He was obviously capable of love and caring, but became twisted when he lost Clara.  This very fact in and of itself dishonored Clara and what she lived and died for-her husband and family.

[Rachel-K]

An interesting point! Hard labor is often expected of children in very hard times. 

Vaclav was about the richest man in the county, yet he put the yoke on his boys rather than get farm animals for the labor.

Is it sheer cruelty for the pleasure of it, or is it cheapness? Was there ever a time when the way he drove the boys was actually out of necessity? Or does that even matter in terms of understanding this character?

[DSaff]

Excellent questions again, Rachel!

Vaclav - Nope, I don't like him at all. Yes, he was tender with his wife, but it seemed too out of place with everything else for me to think it was real. His whole being seemed to be in tune with having sons, as farmers have been forever. But, the way he treated them was due to one of these two reasons for me. 1. They were only born to be worked like animals or 2. He blamed them all for her death. Maybe someone will have a better answer and show me something about him that I haven't seen, but he is a bitter, hard man to me.

Karel's dreams of a relationship with his mother are very sad, but they also seem to be making him more of a human than his father. These are the moments that soften Karel and show me that he isn't all about his father and the bad influence there. Karel's dreams give him the love and acceptance his father doesn't seem to know how to give. I hope they continue into the rest of the book.

The shifts in time are helping me understand what is happening, but they are also so maddening. Just when I think something good is happening, we go into the awful past again.

[DSaff]

I don't think Vaclav drove his boys so hard for pleasure, and I don't think he got anything out of being cruel, but he hasn't seemed to think he was wrong either. This first section shows a man who will do anything, step on anyone, to get what he wants. I don't believe he knows real love, although he may simply be a product of his upbringing and just continuing the cycle. He believes the boys are needed to make the farm work, but his way causes them pain and deformity. The horses should have been shouldering the work, not the boys. I honestly don't think there was any time that he had to use the boys this way.

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Rachel-K wrote:

An interesting point! Hard labor is often expected of children in very hard times. 

Vaclav was about the richest man in the county, yet he put the yoke on his boys rather than get farm animals for the labor.

Is it sheer cruelty for the pleasure of it, or is it cheapness? Was there ever a time when the way he drove the boys was actually out of necessity? Or does that even matter in terms of understanding this character?

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