Wake of Forgiveness: Early Chapters until "Meander Scars," (p.132)

[JaneM]

Having experienced the same pain as other readers over the unbearable cruelty of forcing your sons to be harnassed. I have been thinking about this for some time.  Questions that come to mind have to do with the inception of this practice.  Obviously Vaclav used horses or oxen to plow while his wife was alive and later while the boys were still too small to do this.  So at what point did it begin?  One day he just says to his sons to get out there and start plowing?  There must have been a defining moment.  Or a long period of verbal abuse leading up to this ultimate physical abuse that would make them accept the yoke as their duty.  His special horses have been used mostly in the last 4 years (prior to 1910) (Page 9) in races to win land from Dalton, so maybe the harnassing began when Stan was 16 and Karal was 11.

I would expect further flashbacks in later chapters will bring clarity to this point.

I would also like to say that this is a dark book so far, with only brief flickers of humanity to lighten the mood.  But they are there, if you look for them, from Karal playing with his children, to his stated love for his wife (regardless of his fidelity), to the courage of the young man who raised the cross on the church.  While others may find this depressing, I personally am keeping the book's title in mind, about "Foregiveness", thinking that Bruce M. will guide us along a path that will bring understanding and ultimately foregiveness to at least one or more of the characters. 

I recently saw the movie "Winter's Bone" (originally a novel) which is equally dark, and full of familial abuse, but in books of this type there is also a beauty in how the author lays out and reveals the story, allowing us to build to the ending.. 

Winter's Bone  

[Vermontcozy]

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JaneM wrote:

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mommybooknerd wrote:

Pg 127..."My father says that if we look for ourselves in others, we're likely to find someone we don't recognize"

What do we think about that quote considering the context???

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I also find it an interesting quote. It continues, "He considers what she's said, the meaning of which flits in and out of the limits of his comprehension the same way a flushed bobwhite will weave itself into a stand of trees to elude his shot."

I think the meaning of the question is elusive, and strange coming from a young woman.  If a more mature person had made the remark, I would take it to mean that if we look for our personal validation or worth in others, then we should not be surprised to find that we had in effect created a mirror of the other, rather than a representation of ourself. 

But maybe she means that if Karel is trying to find a commonality between them because of an absent mother, then he would be misinterpreting her situation by expecting her responses in all things to mirror his own.  And as she goes on to say her mother is "alive to everyone but my father", we can be further confused by the tease of this line, which I hope will be clarified in further chapters.

In any case, I would like others to weight in on this, as it is an interesting passge.

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Interesting and very foreign to Karel..Especially coming from a woman..Who has more confidence then him.She has in a very short time,(only in the First half of TWOF..Have not gone any further,)become everything to him,he has never experienced.Plus the passion.It gives me hope,and also concern..Susan

[BooksToTheCeil…]

Thus far I feel no symathy for Vaclav, he seems to be as bitter and hard as he sees himself. But bitter and hard don't really explain his actions toward his sons. Uncaring maybe. It is beyond me to understand how a man who can afford such nice race horses wouldn't fork over a little money for a couple of mules for plowing.  

[RIRN56]

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I like going back and forth in time for the chapters. You get to see how it was when Karel was a child, which gives you an idea as to why he is the way he is, as an adult. I'm anxious to see how the story goes with his infidelities and desires. I think Karel's childhood portrayed somewhat of an innocence, and we see a devious side of him as an adult. Makes me wonder which side will dominate his personality.

[RIRN56]

Do we see Vaclav and Karel show tenderness, pride, or respect in their relationship to land and horses that they don't seem to expect at all in the human relationships within their family?

Absolutely. I feel that they view horses and land as richness, that could be attainable. But relationships with family for Vaclav would be minimal, from the hardness we see of his personality, other than his wife. As for Karel, I think his respect, tenderness, and pride come through more. He shows tenderness with his wife( a little!) and children. I do think he respected his father to a certain extent, while also harboring hatred. I think he showed some type of tenderness and respect towards Graciela, when he lost the race with her.

[Bonnie_C]

I found it interesting that we were given just mere glimpses of "normal" family life.  At one point Karel was remembering how special those very rare times were when his father would take the boys fishing and tell them stories about his life growing up in the old country.  He also remembered that for a birthday present his father gave Karel a day off from his chores.

As for as the relationship with the brothers, Karel remembers the first time he got drunk was with his brothers after he won the first race.  It was also mentioned that Stan was the "mother hen" of the group.  So I got the feeling that there was a relationship among the brothers, it just hasn't been well defined yet outside the horse harness.

Unfortunately these little events in no way makes up for the cruelty exhibited during the rest of the story.  And I can't help but believe that the use of the boys to plow the fields was born out of cruelty.  Because from a business standpoint, using horses, even cheap plow horses would be more productive than using 4 young men.  Karel seems to be a fairly bright boy.  I'm surprised he has not thought of that.

Bonnie

[thewanderingjew]

On page 67, Karel is thinking about his brothers after a conversation with the Knedlik brothers.

The quote begins, "What I ought to do, he thought, is to take you little shit-asses outside and stomp some sense into you, but the brothers held their ground, moving together in such a way that their shoulders nearly touched, and Karel found himself thinking of the days he'd been harnessed with his brothers to the plow. It had been hard work, but they'd suffered it together, shoulder to shoulder, and now there was something cool bubbling up inside him, working its way through him fresh and clean the way the waters of the cold springs out west bubbled up through stone to feed the winding rivers in the hills.

Bonnie, do you think there was more of a relationship than we are aware of, at the moment. Could Karel be nostalgic for the closeness he had with his brothers then, yoked together, even though they were being treated ruthlessly? Does he miss them? He no longer seems to have a relationship with them as far as I can see from the portion of the book I have read. It seems strange to be nostalgic about what amounts almost to torture but these brothers were certainly raised in a dysfunctional manner so who knows?

Does anyone else have any thoughts on that passage.

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Bonnie_C wrote:
snip...

As for as the relationship with the brothers, Karel remembers the first time he got drunk was with his brothers after he won the first race.  It was also mentioned that Stan was the "mother hen" of the group.  So I got the feeling that there was a relationship among the brothers, it just hasn't been well defined yet outside the horse harness. snip...

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Bonnie_C wrote:

snip...

As for as the relationship with the brothers, Karel remembers the first time he got drunk was with his brothers after he won the first race.  It was also mentioned that Stan was the "mother hen" of the group.  So I got the feeling that there was a relationship among the brothers, it just hasn't been well defined yet outside the horse harness.snip...

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[nbmars]

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I have no sympathy for Vaclav.  I wish the brothers had banded together and killed him early on!

At the end of this first section, Karel expresses some astonishment that Graciela's father would harness fine horses to pull a carriage, but seems to register no irony that his own father has crippled his brothers and himself by making them pull a plow. Do you have any understanding of this? 

I'm thinking it's like Stockholm Syndrome, when kipnap victims become sympathetic to their captors.   

So far, it seems like a very dark and unpleasant story, which is not to say I'm not enjoying it!  

[Vermontcozy]

eadie;;I love the language as well.It couldn't have been written any other way to feel the depth of the Book  .Bruce's gift.is being able to transform our minds to get into his flow of the story.and reading it slowly, enables me to absorb the beauty,even with all the hardships,and not perfect relationships,it is so far a wonderful story.Looking forward to Bruce's visit and reading on...Susan..

[bribrax]

What kind of a man is Vaclav? He sees himself as a man who is "bitter and hard" but had been softened only by being close to Klara during their marriage. Are you able to feel any sympathy for his character in the novel so far?

I think it’s very easy to feel sympathy for Vaclav the first few pages of the novel—here is a man who has lost his wife in childbirth.  From page 9 on I can’t help but abhor him and the way he treats his sons.  I would like to know more of his upbringing and what might have made him ‘bitter and hard.’  We do get a little glimpse into Vaclav’s early life when on page 53 he shares stories with his sons, but not enough of a glimpse to understand why he is the way he is.

Is there a relationship between the four brothers?

I think there is a relationship between the brothers—just not one that would be considered ‘normal’ or ‘healthy.’  I can’t help but think that their deformities help ‘bind’ them to one another… (if that makes sense.)

What effect do the shifts in time between chapters have on your understanding of this family's story?

I usually don’t have a problem with a book having shifts in time between chapters, but I’m finding I don’t like it too much with this book.  I just feel that at times too much info is given in one chapter that I almost feel like I am rereading it again in another.  I also was confused when on page 20 it states that ‘eleven-year-old Karel…’ when in actuality I think he should have been 15 years old at that time;  I didn’t know if the time was “March 1910” or if it meant anytime up to that date….

[sorele]

Vaclav was a tragic figure.  Although it is difficult to sympathize with this abusive father, he lost his chance of redemption when his wife, Klara, died.  She was the only thing that softened him at all.  But when she died, he became a bitter and horrible person.  It sickened me to read about what he did to his sons, injuring them physically and emotionally.  

Karel seemed softer than his father, but he obviously has a big problem with women.  He daydreams about his mother whom he never knew.  He loves Sophie but yet, as she goes through the difficult delivery of his son, he has a sexual encounter with Elizka.  Maybe there is a parallel here: Vaclav lost Klara - Karel lost Graciela and Klara too.

I liked Mrs. Vrana.......she knew the deal with Karel but her main concern was Sophie.  I love the way she spoke to Karel letting him know that she knew what he was doing.

[blkeyesuzi]

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DarcyPDX wrote:

Since I've read the whole book, I'll try to formulate my discussion in such a way that I avoid "spoilers". 

You didn't ask this question, but as a former English literature major in college, I HAVE to mention the absolutely beautiful prose in this book.  What a treat to the ear and mind it was.  Lines like: "These were the communal truths, the recollections the landowners and townsmen shared the way they kept in common a constant worry over rainfall and boll weevils and cotton futures."  or "...on the rare day that Vaclav Skala would gather his boys behind the barn...the very earth would cease, in the boys' minds, its slow, secretive turning, and they'd stand eager and mute, dumbstruck by the anticipation of their father's words."  Wow!  So evocative and so elegant!

--Darcy

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I completely agree with how beautiful many of the passages are.  The only thing that I have found distracting so far is the over usage of the word "beneath".  As an editor, I keep wanting to strike the word.  There are so many other word choices.  It's probably just a quirk of mine and no one else even noticed it.  lol

[SusieLMNOP]

I agree with rosia on this count of wordiness.  I am getting lost in these crazy long sentences!  I keep having to backtrack to figure out where the subject and the verb are and cut out all of the clauses and prepositional phrases to determine the meaning of each one.  The imagery is beautiful, but it's almost too much. 

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rosia408 wrote:

I am having a really hard time getting into this book. I can't say it is one that has grabbed me from page one. I think the writing style is way too wordy and I find myself going back and rereading sentences and even paragraphs trying to figure out what is going on.

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The relationships in the book are fascinating.  I'm just getting caught up on all of the discussions here, so once I get a few minutes to think over the questions I'll post again.

[Anne_Elliot]

After reading almost all of the book, I feel like I don't know the characters.  I am especially confused by Karel.  I know that he is confused about who he is too but sometimes his actions are completely incongruent and random to me.  He is a weird combination of extreme good and horrible evil.

[jodell7]

Even though the story takes place in the early 1900's.  It makes you wonder that over time some things never change.  How many times do you hear "that children are a product of their environment".  It pains me to think of the mental and physical abuse that occurred to the boys.  I get the feeling sometimes that before Vaclav met Klara, he was somewhat a different person.  Every now and then you see a twinkle of humanity.  I can't help wonder of Vaclav raised his boys the way he was raised.

[jodell7]

I also found the jumping back and forth in time a little difficult to follow.  It disrupts the flow of the story.  I can understand however, why the author is doing it.  It helps to explain feelings and actions that are occurring in present day.  I still think the story would be just as great if the time was sequential.

[Madgy]

What I really feel for Vaclav and his boys is sadness.  It seems like Vaclav's only chance at learning how to love and respect was through his wife and when she passed he had no one to guide him.  I think the three older boys remember the love their mother gave them, however young they were, and that's why they resent Karel and blame him for her death.  It seems like the three brothers stick together and Karel is on his own so he learned to ride and race and take care of the horse and treat it like his father does, better than a human, and so Vaclav choses him to do the racing.      I think never knowing the true love of any parent is too much for a soul to bear and he longs to have his mothers arms around him.  Again I'm very sadened. 

I do find myself checking the date closely going in each chapter but to me it isn't an issue. 

[Vermontcozy]

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JaneM wrote:

Having experienced the same pain as other readers over the unbearable cruelty of forcing your sons to be harnassed. I have been thinking about this for some time.  Questions that come to mind have to do with the inception of this practice.  Obviously Vaclav used horses or oxen to plow while his wife was alive and later while the boys were still too small to do this.  So at what point did it begin?  One day he just says to his sons to get out there and start plowing?  There must have been a defining moment.  Or a long period of verbal abuse leading up to this ultimate physical abuse that would make them accept the yoke as their duty.  His special horses have been used mostly in the last 4 years (prior to 1910) (Page 9) in races to win land from Dalton, so maybe the harnassing began when Stan was 16 and Karal was 11.

I would expect further flashbacks in later chapters will bring clarity to this point.

I would also like to say that this is a dark book so far, with only brief flickers of humanity to lighten the mood.  But they are there, if you look for them, from Karal playing with his children, to his stated love for his wife (regardless of his fidelity), to the courage of the young man who raised the cross on the church.  While others may find this depressing, I personally am keeping the book's title in mind, about "Foregiveness", thinking that Bruce M. will guide us along a path that will bring understanding and ultimately foregiveness to at least one or more of the characters. 

I recently saw the movie "Winter's Bone" (originally a novel) which is equally dark, and full of familial abuse, but in books of this type there is also a beauty in how the author lays out and reveals the story, allowing us to build to the ending.. 

Winter's Bone  

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Thank you for the book recommendation, JaneM,I looked into it and put it on MY TBR.... You also bring up some excellent points concerning TWOF.I also expect the flashbacks,which for me add to the book,rather then take away..It has the feeling of a Movie,and the trailer in sepia tones,brought so much into focus,,in such  a short Clip...Susan

[retromom]

So far I am enjoying the beautiful prose of the book. The jumping around in time is rather confusing for me. I find myself double checking what year I am reading about and how old Karel is. I'm assuming there is a good reason for the book to be written this way and maybe will reveal itself in the end?

I have absolutely no sympathy for Vaclav! I imagine he was this way before he met Klara. He comes off as having respect for his animals but I even found myself questioning that at times. I think Vaclav is a man who needs to control everyone and everything around him. I find him very abusive.

I don't think there is much of a relationship between the brothers as of this point in the book. I really wouldn't expect them to with the type of upbringing they have had.

I think that Karel's thoughts of his mother are touching. It shows me that there is a soft side to him down deep somewhere. Maybe it is because he feels responsible for her death or maybe it is because he is feeling like he is missing something in his life. I'm not sure yet. I find it odd that he has this amazing respect for his mother who he never met but he does not respect the women who are a part of his life. Is this because of his upbringing or because he is missing the loving touch of a mother?

I am looking forward to reading on and finding out what happens next. I'm hoping Karel becomes a character I can like. So far I am not fond of many of the characters but I am curious to see where their stories go next!

[ssizemore]

I have spent a bit of time trying to "digest" the first section of this book.  I was immediately reminded of an earlier FL choice, Under this Unbroken Sky.  The life of immigrant families must have been terribly hard in so many ways.  The "hardness" of the land brought heartbreak to those trying to live on it and this seems to translate into difficult personal relationships.  Vaclav is a bitter man, certainly after the death of his wife.  His bitterness seems to resound in all of his relationships.  He is competitive in all things, especially in the acquisition of land and in horse racing.  I find the use of his boys as chattel particularly disturbing.  I would assume that would happen when there were no animals to use, but Vaclav protected his horse and not his children.  He is unflinching, dishonest, and very bitter!

Karel seems to be the one person in the family who has any feelings for the others.  He is the one most punished because he caused (!) the death of his mother.  He yearns for a mother's love and his father makes that so much worse.  The relationship with his brothers appears to be tenuous.  They are jealous of Karel because he is the one who is allowed to race the prize horse,  I was reminded of the story of Joseph and the coat of many colors.  Major difference there is that Joseph's father loved him and showed favoritism purposely.  When Karel races, the brothers seem to side with the Mexicans to cause Karel to lose the race.

When Karel questions Graciela about her father's use of fine horses to pull a carriage, the difference in social station is clear.  Graciela's father has money to spare, but is certainly despised as a "foreigner".  Vaclav, though an immigrant himself, is more socially acceptable in the community, but does not want to show his wealth in the same way.  Both are rather despicable characters!

I found the time changes somewhat confusing at first.  When I checked back, I realized what was happening.  I think I was in a hurry to see what would happen next!

Again, I do remember the dynamics in the earlier FL selection.  The land and the hardship of life on the frontier made the male characters hard and unforgiving, just as the land was so.