Wake of Forgiveness: Forgiveness

[Rachel-K]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

[thewanderingjew]

Deep down, Karel is really not a violent man. In order to hold Raymond, hewould have had to shoot him, in the back! He cannot. He also recognizes that Ray is a product of his past, of his abusive life, of his own pain and frustration. Like Ray, Karel was placed in a terrible position by his own father. I believe he thought Ray had suffered enough with the loss of his brother. Hadn't Karel suffered for years because he lost his siblings? Even though it was not in death, it was just as much of a catastrophic event after they married ans stopped communicating. He understood what it meant to be alone. He understood that Raymond was lost and needed to find his way. Retribution was not the theme, forgiveness was, but retribution came along with it, in many forms.

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Rachel-K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

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[dhaupt]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

I don't think that Karel would have shot Raymond in the back, but we don't know that he didn't rat him out to the law later on. I know he thought that it was Raymond who deserved to be dead and not Joe.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

For the way they treated each other,for not sticking up for each other, for unkindness

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Sophie and his brothers

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

Forgiveness in the novel came in many forms, the forgiveness between living characters, but also letting go of hatred and unkind thoughts of Vaclav by his sons, also forgiveness to one's self

[Tarri]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

I think Karel lets Raymond go for many reasons.  In my opinion, Karel does not want to be a violent man like his father, also he knows that Raymond has lost the most important thing he had, his twin.  Another reason may be that he wants to best Villasenor and not give him what he wants.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

Karel did have sex with Thom's soon-to-be wife, plus Karel showed up at the church and made a scene. 

I think the main thing the brothers need to forgive each other for is not putting a stop to Vaclav's abuse, although I'm sure there wasn't much they could do until they actually had the opportunity to leave. 

As time passed with no contact, it just became harder to know what to do to mend the rift. 

[CAG]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

I think Karel understands Raymond's loss and the only way he could stop him would be by shooting him. I don't think that is in Karel's nature. My thought is Karel leaves it to fate and if Raymond is caught later, then so be it. I also think he didn't want to help Villasenor in any way.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

I believe they all felt a terrible guilt for not being able to stand up to their father and protect each other. I am not sure there was anything they could have done when they were growing up but sometimes just the feeling of helplessness makes one feel guilty and responsible. I think they all needed to forgive themselves and each other.

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Karel feels he needs to forgive his father, his mother (for dying and leaving all of them), his brothers and himself.  When he recognizes it is himself that he must also forgive, he becomes free to seek forgiveness from all of his family for the hate and blame he has carried with him for years.

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

I think Karel forgives himself which was very important for him in order to grow as a person. He is able to forgive his brothers and I think the brothers forgive him. The forgiveness is a matter of healing, letting go and moving on with life.

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[Bonnie_C]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

He felt like he was in no position to be Raymond's judge after some of the mistakes he made in his life.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

For letting so much time go by before reconciling.

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Sophie, his brothers,but most of all he needs to forgive himself.

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

I think Karel has forgiven himself for things in the past and things he had no control over like the death of his mother and father.

Bonnie

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[Krickett2432]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

I believe Karel let Raymond go because of the connection they had with the twin's mother.  Since their mother had been a wet nurse for him and basically he felt a connection as if they were half brothers.  Plus, their mother had recently spoken kindly to him and given him comfort.  He also saw the pain Raymond felt at the death of his brother.  Perhaps he was hoping that he would go on to lead a better life after learning such a hard lesson.

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Karel has been the one harboring resentment against Thom ever since he took Graciela away from him.  He may have felt it was Thom's fault.  But he had to finally let her go by realizing that she and Thom were happy--they had a happy family.  And he had a happy family as well--he just needed to embrace them (as he did in the end).

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

In the end everyone basiclaly had to forgive everyone else.  There had to be forgiveness for the resentment that others' felt.  Sophie had to forgive Karel for cheating.  They all had to come to a point of forgiveness to their father.  Karel was able to forgive Raymond (since Thom's daughter was going to be okay.)  Just like in life - we all have to forgive each other all the time. 

[BookWoman718]

I'm still trying to think through the novel's title.  It seemed to me that very little forgiveness occurs until close to the end of the book.  Yet "the wake of forgiveness" seems to suggest "what comes after- or follows - forgiveness."   

I believe Bruce implies a happier situation is on the threshold.  Karel finally realizes he should lay down his guilt (which should never have been allowed to develop in the first place) over his mother's death, and even over his father's death, which he witnessed, but had no real opportunity to prevent.  There are hesitant gestures from the brothers that Karel will be welcome to drop by.  Sophie has forgiven Karel, but has made a clear call to him, that when he is tempted to betray her, he should think of his son, if thoughts of his wife alone are not sufficient to deter him.  Yet, given their troubled history, we cannot be sure any of the hoped for improvements in these relationships will actually occur;  that they will indeed be in 'the wake of forgiveness.'

Knowing that Bruce is working on a sequel, it almost seems to me that THAT book should be the one called "The Wake of Forgiveness,"  - in which the reader finds out what really did occur after all this forgiveness took place - and that  this one should have a title more suggestive of the mood and the actions that take place within it.   ("Injuries" for instance?) 

[Peppermill]

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BookWoman718 wrote:

I'm still trying to think through the novel's title.  It seemed to me that very little forgiveness occurs until close to the end of the book.  Yet "the wake of forgiveness" seems to suggest "what comes after- or follows - forgiveness."   

I believe Bruce implies a happier situation is on the threshold.  Karel finally realizes he should lay down his guilt (which should never have been allowed to develop in the first place) over his mother's death, and even over his father's death, which he witnessed, but had no real opportunity to prevent.  There are hesitant gestures from the brothers that Karel will be welcome to drop by.  Sophie has forgiven Karel, but has made a clear call to him, that when he is tempted to betray her, he should think of his son, if thoughts of his wife alone are not sufficient to deter him.  Yet, given their troubled history, we cannot be sure any of the hoped for improvements in these relationships will actually occur;  that they will indeed be in 'the wake of forgiveness.'

Knowing that Bruce is working on a sequel, it almost seems to me that THAT book should be the one called "The Wake of Forgiveness,"  - in which the reader finds out what really did occur after all this forgiveness took place - and that  this one should have a title more suggestive of the mood and the actions that take place within it.   ("Injuries" for instance?) 

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Trust must always be earned, and yet it is also always a gift.

Somewhere there is a sentence Karel utters to the effect, 'can it really be this easy to re-establish contact with his brothers.'

Sometimes we make forgiveness -- giving or receiving -- much more difficult than need be.

And, as Krickett says above, once may not be enough, we may need to do it again and again.

A periodic point of discussion on my church's liturgy is the prayer of confession and the subsequent assurance of forgiveness -- ought/is it really this "easy"?  All of us know forgiveness can get messy -- Derrida will say "only the unforgivable can be forgiven," but then begs the question of what is the unforgivable -- for oneself, for the other.  Regardless, the "wake," the aftermath, does hold the hope of healing, of repaired life.

[DSaff]

I think Karel lets Raymond go because he is already a walking dead man. Raymond now has no family, no life, no respect, and no self. Karel sees that Raymond's life will be filled with running and hiding, not something filled with family and accomplishment. Karel also knows that Villasenor's men will hunt him down. What a lousy way to finish your life!

Karel needs to ask forgiveness from his wife. She is the one he has hurt with his infidelity and the one who really "has his back." She has been patient and loving. Now he needs to step up. I think he and his brothers need to move on and let the past go. There has been enough suffering there.

[Deltadawn]

I think that Karel feels that enough blood has already been shed. He also knows that Raymond was abused as a child and has been through a terrible ordeal in losing his brother.

Karel and his brothers have a lot to forgive each other for. Karel can forgive his brothers for so readily abandoning him and leaving him alone with his father when they went to get married.

Thom can forgive him for his tryst with Graciella. They all can forgive him for, in effect, disowning them, as well.

Karel feels the need to "seek" forgiveness from his mother, because of the fact that she died while giving birth to him. He feels the need to "seek" forgiveness from his father and his brothers for the very same reason. He also feels the need to seek forgiveness from his wife, for his infidelities & for not being the husband that he should have been to her.

I believe that the Skala brothers have forgiven each other by the end of the novel. I feel that they will have a new relationship moving forward (Karel with his brothers.) I believe that Karel's wife has forgiven him and they too will have a new and better relationship going forward. Has Karel forgiven himself? Just maybe he has. I think he has. I think "forgiveness" is, in part at least, a letting go of anger and old grudges. A letting go & moving forward.

[coffee_luvr]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

Maybe because he decides that shooting him in the back or turning him in won't fix the wrongs that were done and will just continue the violence and give Villasenor some satisfaction.  I think Karel felt some compassion for Raymond; especially now that he is alone without Joe.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

I think Karel had bitterness against his brothers for "escaping" their father, leaving him and for Thom taking Graciela as his wife.  But then Karel realizes that his brothers never really "escaped". 

pg 277....Karel saw what he hadn't once considered before, that while his brothers had found a way clear of their father, It had led them to this.....

I felt this was the moment he started forgiving his brothers.

I think the brothers felt some resentment towards Karel from when they were younger and after they "escaped" I got the sense they felt they were somehow better than Karel.  However they were still under the thumb of an unforgiving Father-in-law.  I think the brothers may have had bitterness towards Karel and envied his "freedom".

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

I think his wife and his brothers.

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

I think ultimately Karel forgives his brothers and they him. Karel finds that Thom does not hold bitterness against him for loving Graciella.  I think this means that there can be some healing between the brothers and they can possibly start being more of a family.  I think once forgiveness of one person is granted, it is easier to continue to forgive.  It is powerful to forgive.

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[babzilla41]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

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I think Karel lets Raymond go because he realizes he doesn't need Raymond's blood on his hands - he's had pain and regret in his life.  He knows if Villasenor's men don't get Raymond, the rest of Raymond's life will be spent wandering, looking for his place in the world, but never finding peace within himself.

I think Karel and his brother have to forgive each other for being so stubborn over the years - by letting too many years pass by without having each other in their lives.  They all had families that they love - although it took some of them longer to figure that out!

Karel needs to ask Sophia for forgiveness - his start is when he tells her, "I don't know. I'm not much good at finding what I'm after these days."  He needs to ask for forgiveness for his transgressions, for his faults, and for believing and acting like he was unworthy of anything that he had.

Ultimately, I think Karel finds forgiveness in himself for surviving his mother, and for having good in his life.

b

[MSaff]

  Forgiveness in the sense of it in this novel is one of uncertainty.  There are many instances and conditions which allow for bitter disputes as well as lies and brutality.  It is hard to understand why people did what they did and how people were treated throughout the novel. 

  In my humble opinion, following the fire at Thom's, Karel happens upon Raymond in his barn.  I think that Karel wants to either kill Raymond or at the very least turn him into his brother or the authorities.  Karel is torn in his decision making because of two things.  First what Raymond and Joe did was definitely wrong and with Joe's death, Raymond should be held accountable for his actions.  Secondly, as a result of the fire, Karel and his brothers appear to be reunited.  There is no verbal acknowledgement, but a look of compassion, if you can see it in their eyes, and acceptance back into the family fold.  I think that there is an unspoken and understood forgiveness between the brothers.  I think that because of this silent acknowledgment, Karel understands that Raymond is hurting inside, because of the death of his brother, Joe.  Maybe Karel feels that by allowing Raymond to go, he is forgiving Raymond.  I do believe that as Raymond leaves, he understands that if he were ever to return all bets would be off and Karel and his brothers would settle up with him.

Each of the brothers in the Skala family have their own issues to take into consideration.  Their father was brutal to them as a whole, but I can see where Karel's brothers would have considered Karel the favorite child in the family.  Vaclav showed more compassion to Karel then he ever showed to his brothers, so I'm sure that there was hard feelings there.  Both Karel and his brothers had to forgive each other for the misconception between them.  They had to come to grips with their own feelings and allow themselves to first forgive themselves, before they could forgive anyone else. 

  Karel ones to ask for forgiveness from his wife Sarah for his infidelity and wayward actions.  He knows that he is wrong and needs to make amends for his actions.  Sarah is very good at how she allows Karel to talk without judgment yet she's not letting him off the hook either.  She is the one who lets Karel know that he must change his ways.  In the end, Karel needed to ask for forgiveness from his brothers for the misconception and to his wife.

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Rachel-K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

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[bookowlie]

I think Karel let Raymond go because he didn't want to help Villasenor.

I think Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for not doing more to protect each other and stop Vaclav's abuse.  They carried around a lot of guilt for a long time and needed to forgive themselves and each other in order to move forward in their lives.

[maxcat]

Rachel_K wrote:

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

Karel thinks that if he found Raymond, he would shoot him in the back. But I think he had second thoughts as he wouldn't accept Raymond's money. They were initially raised by the same woman( Raymond's mother) and I think there is an understanding there.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

Karel has not talked to his brothers in a long time. It took the fire at Thom's barn and stable to bring them together. Let bygones be bygones and bury the hatchet.

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

Probably Sophie as he slept with Elizka the night Sophie was delivering his son.

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

I think it's Karel as he grows up and has a wife and two daughters and a son that he loves and cares for. He shows kindness and was not cruel as his father had been.

[dj5775]

Karel lets Raymond go because he has to grieve his brother's loss and he now has only himself. If Villasenor's men catch him that would be something else he's have to deal with.

Karel and his brother's know time has passed, mistakes have been made. Not one of them is perfect and they only have each other.

Karel needs to get forgiveness from his wife, brother, and also himself for all the blame he's placed.

A lot of forgiving had/has to take place, between brothers, marriages, oneself.

[literature]

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What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

I don't feel that  Karel  and his brothers have to forgive each other for anything.  Their circumstances growing up were a result of their father's demands and these boys survived the best they could under those conditions.  The worst was the out and out brawl that erupted after the Karel/Graciela horse race.  The fight was vicious and downright disgusting and  I couldn't believe how hard they fought with each other.  Once Dalton shot the gun to stop the fight, and the fighting stopped as abruptly as the shot rang out, the three older boys left after being banned from the land by their father, and eventually Karel went home to continue living with his father. 

The common bond that had been created between the brothers throughout their lives is what got them through each day growing up and enabled them to tolerate living with their father.  Their being yoked together, shoulder to shoulder, is what gave them the strength and fortitude to tolerate it.  Karel not seeing his brothers for the time they were banned did not weaken that bond, as was exhibited by how casually they all started talking once Karel arrived there.  It was Vaclav that had to ask for forgiveness and in his own way he did it by finally touching Karel's arm as he laid dying in the mud.   The fact that all four boys attended his funeral and had a picture taken together in remembrance, was testament to forgiveness to their father.

Karel finally came to terms with his feelings towards Graciela.  He realized how happy Thom and Graciela were together and he knew that all his dreams about loving her and having a life with her were just his dreams and fantasies.  That, coupled with the arrival of his son, Sophie's unspoken foregiveness of Karel's infidelities and the fact that he realized how much Sophie loved him and what a good family life he had, enable him to forgive himself of his thoughts towards Graciela.

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[vamomvb]

In addition to comprehending the tremendous loss that Raymond is experiencing, I believe that Karel also understands that Raymond's treacherous behavior will catch up with him at some point in the future.

[librarysusie]

Karel lets Raymond Knedlik go. Why?

I think he feels like Raymond has lost enough and Karel can’t just murder him I think he feels that if his brother or Villasenor finds him and kills him then it’s not on him. I also think he knows Raymond will live with the guilt of his brother’s death just like Karel has lived with the guilt of his father’s and will most likely self-destruct all on his own.

What do Karel and his brothers have to forgive each other for?

I think just the years of not speaking and they have to forgive themselves for the guilt over their father and what he did to them. I think each brother has in his own mind a certain guilt and jealousy that they needed to get over to let the forgiveness of themselves before they could forgive each other.

Whom does Karel feel the need to ask for forgiveness?

His father but it’s really himself he needs to forgive.

Ultimately, who in the novel is "forgiven" and what does that mean?

I think the forgiveness in this book is forgiveness of themselves I think most of the anger the brother’s feel is turned inward instead of outward.

Like Thom says on page 281-“You needing penance, Father Carew’s right up there in the house. But don’t say it for me. A whole lot of years have gone by, Karel. Graciela and me been happy together. If something ain’t square, I reckon all you have to do is square it with yourself.