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Rachel-K
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Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

[ Edited ]

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

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Zia01
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 In what ways are they boys most different from each other? I see them as light at dark. Raymond being the bad boy of the two and Joe being the follower. I don't think Joe agrees with half of what they're doing but yet he still participates.

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them? I don't know about all the chapters but the last one, I get the feeling Joe is using the barn fire as his chance to run and break away from Raymond. I could be way off base with this one, but that's the feeling I get from it.

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dhaupt
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

What do we know about the twins? 

We know that they came from an abusive family life, that their parents are dead, that they burned their family home.

 

In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

I see Joe as the dreamer, he's also always followed whatever Raymond wants.  Raymond as more hardened, more disillusioned of the two.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

I think when they start out, they think they'll be able to sell all Karel's beer and get the profit that he's promised them. When it goes wrong, though it really goes wrong and everything spirals out of control.

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

Revenge

 

 

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DSaff
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

Joe and Raymond may be twins but they are as different as night and day to me. Joe is the leader, myopic when it comes to getting revenge, and totally out for a buck. He is the kid gone totally wild in the absence of parental influence, an absence he is responsible for. Raymond is the follower, the one who can see consequences to actions, but also the one who moved ahead anyway. He takes the chance of saving one horse because he likes the look of her. He is the one who took the shot to the shoulder, and the one paying the price at the barn. While both of the boys are involved in killing their father, something tells me that Raymond came up with the plan. There was no room for forgiveness in their hearts. Raymond seems to blame everyone else for what goes wrong and that leads to the need to mete out punishment. Raymond seems to be a very angry young man and I don't know if there is hope for him. Joe seems more pliable. My question for the next section is, if Joe doesn't make it away from the fire (death or capture), will that be enough to make Raymond soften? I will have to wait and see.  :smileyhappy:

DonnaS =) " Reading is a means of thinking with another person's mind; it forces you to stretch your own." Charles Scribner
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Kittysmom
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

Dsaff - I couldn;t agree with you more!

Joe and Raymond may be twins but are polar opposites, Joe with making the decisions and Raymond going along, even though he may not agree with all of it!

I don;t believe they - or should I say Joe had any intention of pleasing Karel - he is just out for revenge and if Raymond doesn't make it I wonder what it will do to him!

"Open a book and the world is yours"
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maxcat
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

Rachel_K wrote:

 

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

I know they killed their father and there are differences as Raymond seems to take the lead and Joe follows.

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

The Knedlich twins had a hard upbringing, somehow they learned to scheme and devise plans to stay in trouble. Their upbringing was different in that they were never used to plow fields.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

At first, my thinking was that they were doing Karel a favor but somehow it became something else and they were charging gas on his bill  and lots of gas at that. Then, they got into stealing beer and creating mischief.

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

Pure greed for themselves at the price of birdshot in Joe's shoulder.

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 

I see Raymond and Joe escaping a fire that they set in Karel's stable. Joe takes a filly and rides out of the burning building which Raymond already escaped. I don't see good things in their future with the antics that they have pulled throughout this second section.

 

If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

I think there are things to come involving Karel and these two boys. He will have a score to settle with them. With the antics the twins have done in this second section, it doesn't change my perception of the Skalas at this point.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep - Robert Frost
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coffee_luvr
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

I feel that Raymond is the leader and Joe the follower.  We know a little history of the twins but I did not feel like I knew them or understood exactly what they were about.

 


Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

I did start thinking that they thought they were aligning themselves with Karel.  I wasn't sure at first what was going on but ended up thinking that they were trying to prove something to Karel as well as themselves.  On pg. 173 I underlined this........He told Joe they might prove their salt this way, stake a claim to the part of the profits they'd been promised, make themselves indispensable with their initiative. 

 

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

I don't really know; these are the two characters that to me were really out of focus.  I did not feel like I understood why they were doing what they were doing.   Were they trying to make more for themselves or to show Karel and the other men that they were tough?  It is not clear to me.

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

It didn't alter my perception of the Skalas.  It made me want to read on and try understand what was going to happen to the twins.......and the effect of what they did.


 

Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill. ~Barbara Tuchman
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Bonnie_C
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 

As with all the characters in this book, I thought the twins were intriguing.  I found myself wanting Joe to somehow find a way out to California and have a life on a ranch with someone he loved and admired, much like "Judith of Blue Lake Ranch". 

 

Raymond may be beyond saving.  He bears the scar of an abusive father.  He in turn kills his father by fire.  He now turns his attention to Thomas who he feels has wronged him.  How will he feel if he looses Joe?

 

I think the Knedlik twins will be the catalyst of the story that will eventually catapult the Skala brothers into a confrontation of some sort.

 

Bonnie

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Rachel-K
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

I was very heartily wishing folks in the novel had 911 during most of Joe and Ray's scenes!

CAG
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CAG
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

I see Ray as an extrovert, more calculating and hard headed than Joe. I think Joe is more reserved, devoted to Ray and a daydreamer.

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

The twins and the Skala brothers came from abusive backgrounds but I think the twins were more physically and emotionally abused.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

At the beginning they believe they are working hard to sell Karel's beer so they can make a profit and in doing so he will appreciate them. Then everything gets out of hand. I don't think they are thinking anything-just reacting and seeking revenge when they get into trouble.

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

It is about revenge and they are reacting without thinking. It is almost like they feel compelled to start the fire and that will somehow prove they are capable of fighting their own battles and showing everyone they are "men" and no one is going to get the upper hand over them.

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

From the chapters with Joe and Raymond, I see the Skalas as having become better men than their father.  They also learned some good things from their father even though he was abusive. They were able to overcome their background. The twins were unable to lift themselves up from their childhood. They didn't have the ability to grow from a bad experience. Their childhood left them without a sense of positive direction in their lives.


 

CAG
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Tarri
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?   

 

I think they are really trying to get Karel's respect by going above and beyond what he asks of them. 

 

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MSaff
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

  What we do know about the twins is that when they were younger, they set their home on fire because of some type of argument with their father and the boys were vengeful.  From all appearances, they haven't changed.  I believe that Joe is more of the intellectual type, as we see him reading and he appears to be the quiet one of the two.  Raymond on the other had appears to me to be the instigator.  Joe not wanting to offend his brother, goes along with his, (Raymond's) decisions, I we see that, in my opinion, Joe may now survive the fire that the twins have set.  He just seems just to banged up, with being shot earlier and now with the obvious broken leg.  I fear that we probably won't be seeing much more of Joe.  What is know clear, is where is Raymond at this time?

 

  I don't think that they believe that they are doing anything to help out Karel.  Yes Karel told them that they could try to find other buyers for the booze that he was peddling, but I find that the twins, especially Raymond has a big chip on his shoulder and if someone gets in his way, the two of the boys have a revenge type atmosphere about them.

 


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

 


 

Mike
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babzilla41
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?


The boys are like night and day.  Raymond is the leader and Joe is the follower.  Since Joe is a reader, makes me think he is more cerebral than Raymond.  Raymond seems to shoot from the hip and act with abandon - not thinking ahead of consequences. Raymond is able to talk Joe into doing things he doesn't really want to do. 

 

Their upbringing was similiar to the Skalas in that their home life was harsh.  Although they had their mother, whom they loved, their father was a mean drunk.  They hated him for the way he treated their mother.  The difference is that they weren't made to do the physical labor that the Skala boys were made to do.

 

I'm not sure that their actions in these chapters were to win favor with Karel.  They didn't seem to do anything that was for anyone but themselves.  Maybe that was their intention in the beginning but it quickly changed to acting out of revenge.  They left Karel money for the trailer but didn't recognize what they were really costing him - which I attribute partly to their age.

 

For the most part, I'm not feeling that the events of these chapters have altered my perception of the Skalas. Thom has shown himself to be a hard man - indicating that even if Karel wasn't aware of what the boys were up to, it was still his fault.   He kept the trailer knowing that it belonged to Karel.

 

The end of these chapters were a disaster in the making.  Obviously a situation that quickly went awry - most likely ending in dire consequences for all.

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Deltadawn
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

There is not too much to add about Joe and Raymond that hasn't been said already. They are Trouble with a capital "T" - they've been brutalized and they are dangerous and out for revenge (with Raymond leading the way and Joe following).

 

One thing that stands out to me, though, is that for better or for worse, these two brothers stand together. They are a team-they are all they each have in the world and they have complete loyalty to each other. This contrasts with the history of how the Skala brothers have related to one another. I don't know much about the relationship of the three older brothers, but we do know that Karel has been estranged from them for many years.

 

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

I think both the Knedliks and the Skala brothers were brought up and scarred by violent, abusive fathers although, I felt that the Knedliks saw more violence in their home. However, they had the advantage of having a mother, however, ineffective and weak, which the Skala brothers did not. The mother was totally abused as well, though.

I wonder if Karel knows about the strong connection he has with their mother who his wet nurse?

 

 

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Bonnie_C
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

I think Joe can be defined by his passion for reading "Judith of Blue Lake Ranch".  He admired this woman in the story.  He wished his mother had been more like her.  I think eventually he saw himself in this character.  He wanted Judith to be strong and stand up to the rancher that did her wrong, but ultimately she disappointed Joe.  I think Joe wants to be strong and stand up to Raymond and start a new life away from Dalton, Texas. 

 

Bonnie

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 

It is interesting that you pointed that out. I missed it. Joe admired Judith's strength, although, at one point, he thought she was weak because she gave in to the rancher. It was in his delirium that he thought she realized her mistake, rejected her suitor and was waiting for him. Karel also wanted a strong woman in his life. Isn't that how he saw Sophie?
Bonnie_C wrote:

I think Joe can be defined by his passion for reading "Judith of Blue Lake Ranch".  He admired this woman in the story.  He wished his mother had been more like her.  I think eventually he saw himself in this character.  He wanted Judith to be strong and stand up to the rancher that did her wrong, but ultimately she disappointed Joe.  I think Joe wants to be strong and stand up to Raymond and start a new life away from Dalton, Texas. 

 

Bonnie


 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

At  the end of the second part, I was not sure if Joe would survive. I have not read the whole book and I wondered if he was strong enough to get away on the filly. He seemed so badly wounded I didn't know how he even managed to mount her. I also wondered if Ray would get caught trying to find Joe.

As far as Karel is concerned, I thought he was unnaturally calm in the way he went about finding the Knedlik twins. He seemed to want to find them simply to exact payment for what they took. He didn't want to hurt them or extract vengeance, as Villasenor seems intent to do to him because of what the twins did, since he believes they acted in Karel's name.

I hoped it did not ruin Karel and I hoped it did not end his hopes of a possible reconciliation with his brothers. I thought perhaps, once the truth was known, it might open that door. I thought maybe Karel would help them after the fire and that would also mend fences, but I am almost afraid to begin the third part to find out what really happens to all of them. I fear it may be far more tragedy coming down the pike. My only glimmer of hope is coming from the title and the word forgiveness!

 

Rachel-K wrote:

 What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 

 

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literature
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 

Mrs. Knedlik seemed to have unattentionally doomed the twins from their birth with her thoughts “They have his cold, inexpressive yes, and they look at her with only their own desires in mind.” She was referring, of course, to being their sole food supply and this was after her husband had come home late in the night, forced himself on her sleeping body, causing her much pain. Their father was abusive beyond words and, unlike Raymond, Joe had learned to stay quiet so as not to agitate him even further. We don't know anything of the twins's life after their mother's death and after their father perished in the fire until Karel meets up with them; they are almost 15 years old. They had grown up as ruthless, heartless human beings.

 

 Joe noticed that there was something in Raymond, maybe some dilution of their father's hot   blood, that readied him always for action, i.e.running, fighting. Raymond took pride in destroying things, maybe because he then felt “he” had control of the situation, no matter how demonic it was.  Joe even commented that he'd never seen such a smile as when they stood out in the pasture and watched the roaring blaze when their father perished in the fire, and he sees the same smile on his face when they get ready to set fire to the Drycreek Saloon. Joe confronts Raymond about spitting on the floor in the saloon and Raymond's response is that maybe he should have spit in Thomas's face instead.

 

Raymond was the born first and Joe had been following him ever since, not questioning his actions. But when Joe says “we can head out now (west)” (this was before the fire was set), Raymond can't even look him in his eyes. Raymond comments that it was the third time that Joe had spoken since sunup, and Raymond wasn't accustomed to his brother being so damned talkative.

 

But after reading the story about Judith and her Blue Lake Ranch in CA, Joe suggests going to CA. We see the softer, more human side of Joe. He is lost in the story of Judith, fantasizes about Judith changing her mind about the other suiter and waiting for him on this very night to arrive. Joe embellishes his fantasy even further to include his mother cooking food for an outfit like the Blue Lake Ranch, saving her money and even opening her own restaurant or saloon. He sees the filly in the stable and is taken by her beauty and unbolts the back stable door to give her another way out when the fire is set.

 

Raymond wasn't concerned about Joe when they were ready to set the fire. He said to him “Hope you aren't too pained to run.” “Raymond shoved past, knocking into Joe's shoulder to get around the blazing chute, running toward the sliding door while Joe went to his knees and looked up...” Raymond bolts out into the night, leaving Joe in the buring barn. Joe thought: his father was dead. His brother out here somewhere in the night, looking for him or assuming him killed or racing toward the road and the truck.

 

Joe hears “the sound of his mother's voice calling out in the night for water, unaware of the fire or animals or the bone splintered and jutting wet through the wrecked skin of his shin.” Joe manages to drag himself out of the barn, through share determination, while lost in thoughts about Judith. The filly made it out too, and he manages to mount the the filly believing that he would ride, mend and go for her (Judith). His leg is bleeding out, and he thinks he would ride out to her through countless, outstretched miles. “But his vision blurred and narrowed and tinted by the faintest film of red.” Sounds like the demise of Joe.

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Jennmarie68
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Bonnie_C wrote:

 

 

I think the Knedlik twins will be the catalyst of the story that will eventually catapult the Skala brothers into a confrontation of some sort.

 

Bonnie


 

Bonnie, 

 

I've had this same feeling as I've been thinking over the last few chapters. I didn't think much about them when Karel hired them. I figured the story would go another way, but they seem to be what is going to cause Karel the most grief. He's already lost one customer because of what they did to Tom, but I think Villasenor is going to fight even harder now that they've set the barn on fire. And even though Karel didn't tell them to do that I don't think anyone is going to distinguish their actions and Karel's ignorance to them. I kind of think that there are scores that have yet to be settled between the the other Skala boys, Karel, and Villasenor and that the twins are really going to set that all off. I can't wait to get the rest of this one read.

 

It's been a real struggle to not read ahead before I get my posts done.

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