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mommybooknerd
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond


Zia01 wrote:

 In what ways are they boys most different from each other? I see them as light at dark. Raymond being the bad boy of the two and Joe being the follower. I don't think Joe agrees with half of what they're doing but yet he still participates.

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them? I don't know about all the chapters but the last one, I get the feeling Joe is using the barn fire as his chance to run and break away from Raymond. I could be way off base with this one, but that's the feeling I get from it.


I feel the same way you do about the brothers.  You have a simple answer but it seems so right on to me!

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Immortal-Spirit
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


Rachel-K wrote:

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

Joe is quiet and seems to want to move away.  Raymond just seems to be a trouble maker and his brother suffers for it.

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

They both loved their mothers and had rotten fathers.  Karel never knew his mother.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

Not sure what their motives were. 

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

I don't know why they do what they do.  Bitterness or greed are the only reasons I can think of.  

 

 

  If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

No it doesn't alter my perception of the Skala family.  The chapters about Raymond and Joe confuse me as to what thier story fits in.


 

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BookWoman718
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond


Immortal-Spirit wrote:

 


 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

Not sure what their motives were. 

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

I don't know why they do what they do.  Bitterness or greed are the only reasons I can think of.  

 

 

  If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

No it doesn't alter my perception of the Skala family.  The chapters about Raymond and Joe confuse me as to what thier story fits in.


 

On the whole, it seems to me that Raymond and Joe were a sort of literary device - a catalyst - used to create a crisis that would cause a coming-together of all the remaining characters.  (Another author might have used a tornado that flattened a barn and injured animals and a child, for instance.)   Using two otherwise mirnor characters instead allowed more reflection, interactions, and conversations between the main characters as they also had to figure out a "why?"  and who to blame and what to do now, more than would have been the case with a natural disaster.    
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CAG
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


BookWoman718 wrote:

Immortal-Spirit wrote:

 


 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

Not sure what their motives were. 

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

I don't know why they do what they do.  Bitterness or greed are the only reasons I can think of.  

 

 

  If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

No it doesn't alter my perception of the Skala family.  The chapters about Raymond and Joe confuse me as to what thier story fits in.


 

On the whole, it seems to me that Raymond and Joe were a sort of literary device - a catalyst - used to create a crisis that would cause a coming-together of all the remaining characters.  (Another author might have used a tornado that flattened a barn and injured animals and a child, for instance.)   Using two otherwise mirnor characters instead allowed more reflection, interactions, and conversations between the main characters as they also had to figure out a "why?"  and who to blame and what to do now, more than would have been the case with a natural disaster.    

That is a great observation. You are right, it does allow more "reflection" etc.

 

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1archi1
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond


What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 They had an abusive father and a sibling bond.  Joe seems to be caring and wishes his brother would listen to him.  Joe knows what Raymond is doing is wrong but, as usual, Raymond won't listen to him.  I think Joe lives in his fantasy world w/ Judith and the Blue Lake Ranch because that is the life he wants, not being a follower of Raymonds.  Raymond seems to be out to make a buck and for revenge when someone does him wrong.

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

Abusive father, mother not there.  They are different because at least Joe and Raymond had each other and were there for each other, they had a sibling bond.  The Skala brothers left Karel as quick as they could and there doesn't seem to be a sibling bond between them.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

I think at the beginning they do but then it takes a different direction and then turns into revenge

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

revenge

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

 Revenge gone wrong.  I hope that Joe makes it to California and lives the life he has dreamed of.

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

I am not sure why Joe and Raymond have such a prominent part in this section.  Maybe it will be clear in the last section of reading.  I couldn't believe that Thom shot Joe.  It seems like Thom is becoming more and more like his father-in-law.


 

:smileyhappy:
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NikiGunn
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

I though about the cow and calf that died because Joe and Raymond weren't there like they should have been. If they had been at Karel's to take care of the animals, the cow, calf and Joe might all have lived.

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Peppermill
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


NikiGunn wrote:

I though about the cow and calf that died because Joe and Raymond weren't there like they should have been. If they had been at Karel's to take care of the animals, the cow, calf and Joe might all have lived.


 

You remind me that Karel had to forgive himself for having kicked the heifer in a way that endangered her calving.  That can be a tough one for responsible farmers.  And, of course, he can't really know if that was the cause of the botched delivery.  Also, in all probability, if either he or the twins had been on the job, both cow and calf could have been saved.

 

From the viewpoint of the story, it was another savagely powerful image of birthing gone wrong.

"Seize the moments of happiness, love and be loved! That is the only reality in the world, all else is folly. It is the one thing we are interested in here." -- Leo Tolstoy
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dj5775
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

Joe and Raymond are the Knedlik twins. They stick together since they are all the family they have. Raymond is the leader of the two and Joe just seems to go along with his brother and his plans. However Joe is a dreamer on his own account, reading the paper columns and dreaming of California and the girl in the weekly story.  Both the twin and and the Skala boy came from tough backgrounds filled with manual labor and/or physical/emotional abuse. I believe the boys are looking to make some quick money and after the shot Raymond took, revenge. I think the stories of the twin and the Scala brothers is to compare the tales of the different families and the relationships between the brothers.

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wjbauer
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

Their fathers insensitive make them alike. The Skala brothers were brought up with hard work, while the twins were more or less on there own.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

I believe they are trying to get someone's approval in this life.

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

I think they started out trying to gane Karel's favor, but saw the amount of money they were getting for the beer, then turned to the dark side.

 

What is your picture of what has happened at the end of these chapters, and what are your expectations for each of them?

I guess I don't know what chapters you are referring to.

 

 If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

I enjoyed the tale of Joe and Raymond. It added some another depth to the story. In fact I was starting to get more interested in what was going on. 

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libralady
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

The twins are exact opposites, or better still extensions of each other.  Joe appears to be more sensitive, more introverted. While Raymond appears to harbor a lot of anger and resentment. Joe is more of a dreamer and Raymond is more "act now, and think about the consequences later."  I think,like Karel, their abusive father played a significant role in the way each of them turned out.  I think in the beginning, the twins are out to impress Karel and also to make some money on the side. The whole plan is mostly Raymond's idea and Joe, just follows along like he has most of his life. But when things start to go wrong, Raymond is set on revenge.  He wants Thom Skala to pay for the way he treats him and his brother and he sets off on a plan of revenge.  He obviously does not think it through or care what Joe thinks. I think the twins are destined to be involved in Karel's life.  This is evident by the fact that they were supposed to be baptized on the very night that Karel lost the race.  If Father Carew had not stopped to watch the race, he would not have gotten caught in the storm and would have made it to the Knedlik farm. 

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crazylilcuban
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

 


BookWoman718 wrote:

Immortal-Spirit wrote:

 


 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

Not sure what their motives were. 

 

What leads the boys to do the things they've done?

 

I don't know why they do what they do.  Bitterness or greed are the only reasons I can think of.  

 

 

  If this novel focuses on Karel and the Skala family in general, what effect does it have to spend these chapters with Joe and Raymond? Does it alter your perception of the Skalas at all?

 

No it doesn't alter my perception of the Skala family.  The chapters about Raymond and Joe confuse me as to what thier story fits in.


 

On the whole, it seems to me that Raymond and Joe were a sort of literary device - a catalyst - used to create a crisis that would cause a coming-together of all the remaining characters.  (Another author might have used a tornado that flattened a barn and injured animals and a child, for instance.)   Using two otherwise mirnor characters instead allowed more reflection, interactions, and conversations between the main characters as they also had to figure out a "why?"  and who to blame and what to do now, more than would have been the case with a natural disaster.    

That's a really great point -- at first I didn't totally understand the role that Raymond and Joe's story played in the greater overall story, but it would make sense to look at it as that moment for everyone to come together.  In giving that moment a deeper story, I agree that there is more reflection to be had, and this "moment" makes more sense in the overall context of the story than for something random such a tornado to suddenly just appear.  I think it also allows us to see a bit more development of Karel's character.

 

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crazylilcuban
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other?

 

I think personality-wise, they're just very different.  Joe seems to be more of the quiet thinker, and Raymond seems to be the action-oriented half of the pair. 

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different?

 

Completely different in many senses.  The twins seem to have had a much cushier life growing up.  But, there are definitely similarities -- the problems with their father figures being the most obvious one.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor?

 

Yes, I got the impression that they originally set out to help and do something that would win Karel's favor and cause him to take them on as business partners.  It's only when things begin to go horribly wrong for them (getting shot, etc) that their motives become less pure.  But even until the end, I think some part of them is still trying to do something good by Karel even if it doesn't turn out that way and even if they're a bit too young or too naive to really comprehend the consequences of their actions.

 

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sarah_in_ca
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

Twins Joe and Raymond were from an abusive family, just as Karel and his brothers were.  However, their lives became more desperate because they never had the chance to get away from the abuse and poverty.  Vaclav was abusive, but he also had a strong desire to own more and more land, as well as horses. Karel learned to value these things as well, while his brothers married Villasenor's daughters and became well-to-do landowners themselves.  Joe and Raymond didn't have these opportunities and struggled daily for living money.  They resorted to harsh tactics, which eventually led to their downfalls.  They envy the Skalas brothers for what they perceive as their successes in life without realizing the Skalas brothers continue to choke at the bit.  Karel can forgive because he has the freedom to forgive.

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Alnilan
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

I second all the answers above and would like to add that the twins represent a certain frontier spirit, absolutely crucial for survival and success. They have too quick initiative to dwell in better judgment, they are the "knee jerk reaction" that sometimes work. 

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Goodword
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

I agree with BookWoman that the boys were used as a catalyst to create the coming together of the remaining characters.  I think they also show a contrast--they also were raised with an abusive father, and were nursed by the same mother, but Joe followed Raymond in his bitter mischief, while Karel was separated from his brothers for a time.  In the end, Joe and Raymond were separated and Karel and his brothers reunited.  Karel has an opportunity to choose and change his fate. 

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BooksToTheCeiling
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Re: Wake of Forgiveness: Joe and Raymond

What do we know about the twins? In what ways are they boys most different from each other? We don't know a whole lot about the twins.They were raised in an abusive home and I would have expected them to be more alike then they are. However in most sets of twins there is a leader or dominate twin and a follower. Such is the case here.

 

Do the boys believe they are doing something to win Karel's favor? I think they do at first, but mostly they seem to be out for profit for themselves..

 

If you compare their upbringing to the hardships of the Skala brothers in childhood-how are the stories alike and different? The stories are alike in that they were all raised in abusive homes along with hard work and with no love to help mold them. The twins were raised without much in the way of resources and I think this is why their focus seems to be in gain. The Skala brothers, while raised in an abusive environment, watched their father gain more land, money and resources. They learned from his example.