Wake of Forgiveness: Middle Chapters to "Testaments to Seed," (p.212)

[Rachel-K]

Hi all, please use any of the following question to continue our discussion of Wake of Forgiveness!

We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? 

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

[Zia01]

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside? I think it makes him think of his family and at that moment all he wants is to be with them, however long that moment lasts.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship? Generally I think they have a good relationship, aside from his extra curricular activities. But this seems to be the norm for the time in question.

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? I think they reminded him of his brothers. I don't think too much of them really. Raymond especially. Joe I think wants to be good but can't back down from his brother and ends up following the leader.

[dhaupt]

The opening scene of this part does give us a more human look at Vaclav. I wonder what happened between the scene here and the cruelty shown later on to make him do what he did to the boys later on.

I think Karel wanted to see his family after witnessing the father and son and especially knowing that he now has a son too.

The teasing between Sophie and Karel tell me that there is if not love genuine positive feelings between them.

I think that Karel sees himself somewhat in the twins, them all being motherless.

[Peppermill]

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action?

I'm not certain why Karel hired the twins, but they were from his own area; he knew them; they were teenagers, strong and available, with two pairs of eyes to keep on each other; Karel may have already been drunk and certainly not totally clear-thinking, ....

That the twins and Karel had been nursed by the same woman seemed to provide some special sense of affinity, at least on Karel's part.

I perceive Karel as having more integrity, for all his lapses, than the boys.  Now in his late twenties, he is almost twice their age and has assumed significant adult responsibilites for several years.  The boys are dreaming teenage orphans who are about to tragically lose their way.

[JaneM]

I want to mention that in the middle section there is a distinct change in narrative flow.  We had the long, leisurely sentences in section one that were so descriptive in setting the place and time and providing character background.  Now the pace picks up as Karel returns to the farm to find out what has happened in his absence.  From there on, action takes over as the Knedlik twins make a bad situation even worse with their failed attempt at retaliation.  I found myself quickly turning pages to find out what would happen, and only now am I going back through the section again, picking up small gems overlooked the first time, like the brief comment on how the Dalton boy came home from the war but soon left to work in Kansas City with others from his regiment.  Pg. 199 - "He'd left his father and mother and the town that carried his name, this for something akin to brotherhood that probably had no name at all."

[flouncyninja]

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We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

He still has a stern and unloving manner about him, but he's not the sadistic, unfeeling man that he is later down the road.  His mention that he will allow himself to cry one last time after the only photo of his wife is destroyed by accident seems to be the turning point between when he went from detacted yet still "there" to the monster that hitches up his own children to the plow to sow his fields.  He didn't immediately go from caring husband/father; it was a steady process over a handful of years.

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

He's reminded of his own son and realizes that he doesn't want to have the same type of relationship he had with his own father.  He'd much rather have a caring and protective relationship as it seems this hunting father and son have.  It reminds him that perhaps he should be there for his new born child, instead of caring about business above family.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

While Karel might still be in love with another woman and having an affair with still another, I believe that there is love in his marriage with Sophie.  She's not just there to produce children and attend to his every need.  I think this was well described in the flashback to how they had originally met.  He admired and respected her knowledge of animals and I think that admiration has turned into a mutual love and caring of one another.  Karel is not the cold man his father was - there is light and a sense of at least occassional happiness in the relationship.

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action?

He grew up in a similar situation - abusive father who took out all his frustrations on him and his brothers.  He saw himself as a teenager in their smart mouths and gumption.  After seeing them in action, Raymond is very much the planner, out for himself as much as possible, while Joe just follows his brother's lead even when he doesn't necessarily agree with it.  I think Karel is a blend of the twins.

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

Wow, I really hate Raymond.  That's about as much as I can put into words at this point.  He's violent and narcissitic in the worse way imaginable.  He's put his brother in mortal danger twice now to take out revenge on a man who "slighted" him.

I liked the way the story was told - at first it seeming like a blind robbery when really the boys were trying to do more than what was originally requested of them before things went horribly wrong.  With Karel as the prime narrator as the story unfolded, it was interesting to see how everything played out to him and then to go back and have the twins' version of the story play out to fill in the gaps.  I think once both sides were told, it was easy to create a picture of what happened even if motivations weren't exactly clear.

I still don't think Karel knows what's going on exactly, but he has a good idea.

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[flouncyninja]

I both liked and disliked this second section more than the first.  I liked it more because I finally found a character who relatable if not likeable in Joe.  Yes, he follows his twin's actions even when those actions are deplorable, but he's a dreamer who genuinely cared for his dying mother and was there at the very last.  All he wants is a better life and he's still in a state of immaturity that he's not sure how to obtain that life without the arrogant leadership of his brother.  He knows when things are wrong, but doesn't yet have the spine to stand up for himself.  He's compassionate (letting the fowl out of the burning barn) and strong though I don't think he quite knows that yet.  I hope if we learn the outcome of his story, that he gets away from his distructive twin and makes it to California.

Karel also became a somewhat more appealing character as everything seems to be falling apart around him, but he stays centered, working to maintain his business and protect his family.  He's becoming more destinguished from Vaclav now though I did wish he would have gone up to Thom and talked to him, if not helped him clean out the saloon.  I think that might have helped him out a little bit later on.

I disliked this section for much of the reason I liked the first third of the book - the vivid descriptions.  It just became too overwhelming with the descriptions of chewing tabacco and the death of the cow with her half born calf.  These might be particular "squick" moments for me, but there were too many vivid descriptions of events and actions that made me feel a little ill.  I guess that's what I get for reading this when allergies have given me a weak stomach to begin with. 

The last section with the twins attempt at revenge flew by and I couldn't put it down.  Still not sure if I like the book, but it's definitely compelling.

[Deltadawn]

Vaclav is doing things a father would do - not in a warm way - but he is taking care of his kids - that is a far cry from putting yokes on them to plow.

Karel turns his truck around because he feels the need to see his family. He probably is struck by the complete difference between the man & his son compared to his own (lack of a) relationship with his father - and this seems to have spurred him (at least at the moment) to create a real relationship with his family - his wife, daughters and now his newborn son.

I think Sophie's teasing of him shows that they have an affectionate relationship.

I think Karel hires them because they remind him of himself in some ways. There is also the fact that their mother nursed him as a child, so there is that connection.

The boys are very young and rash (mostly Raymond, with Joe following his lead). They don't think things through before they act.  Karel has more experience and seems more level headed than they are. (i.e. Raymond would shoot first ask questions later. I think Karel is at a point in his life in which he asks questions first.)

[Deltadawn]

I  love that thought, flouncyninja - esp. the part about Karel being a blend of the twins!

[thecatsmeowAM]

We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

--This scene does make Vaclav slightly more likeable to me.  But the fear that the boys have of him, as shown when Karel drops the picture of mother, still makes me feel terrible that the boys were raised by a father such as that. 

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

--I think he turns the truck around because he feels guilty for leaving his wife and his newborn son.  I think he sees a boy and a father who appear to have a relationship that he never had and definitely wished he had with his father.  So he turns around to give that relationship with his son a chance.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

--She seems to genuinely like Karel and thinks of him as a friend, as well as a husband.

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? 

--He feels an affinity to them because they also were raised in a house with a horrible father.  So he gives them a chance, like I am sure he wishes people will give to him.  Clearly however, they abused that chance and this is where (at least as far as I can tell so far) they differ from Karel, who has made something of his life (for the most part). 

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

--I think I am still unclear as to what exactly happened.  When the boy spits on Thoms floor, that seems to be where things started to go wrong.  But then to burn down the barn and horses, I am not sure what transpired to warrant an act as horrific as this.  I am eager to read others responses to this so maybe I can understand better this part of the story.

I still am enjoying the book a lot.  It is easy reading and I look forward to see how it ends!

[DSaff]

While I agree that we see a "softer" side of Vaclav in this section, it doesn't last. He really does need a woman's touch in his life. I think he totally lost it when the picture was destroyed. So sad.

Karel has moments of redemption, and watching the father and son in the field was one of those moments. I especially loved when he tipped his hat letting the boy know he had done well. That goes with the Karel who was playing with his daughters on the floor. I haven't finished the book yet, and I hope this continues.

I think Karel hired Joe and Raymond because he wanted to give them something to do. He knew they had killed their father, he knew they needed some focus in their lives. What he didn't know is that they were already moving head first into trouble. I was afraid they would get caught in the bar, but when they were burning the barn and horses, well..... They were thieves and liars, using whatever they could grab to accomplish their goal. So much tragedy, so much anger.

The barn burning was all for revenge. Spit on the floor, get shot. Dump the beer, get threatened and have your things taken (and Karel's things). The next step was the most devastating. Raymond knows what is going to happen - how the fire will spread. I think Joe follows along, with a little guilt regarding the horse he saved. But, look who is paying the price. I don't know if Joe is dead or alive yet, but his predicament at the end of this section is not good!

[maxcat]

Rachel_K wrote:

We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

Vaclav does show signs of being humane to his boys especially with his wife's picture that was ruined. Sure,he smacks one of the older boys, but he becomes passionate when thinking of that picture as tears well up in his eyes. But, he wants no one to see that he is crying and stalks off to the fields. It doesn't fit with his general personality but the was a twinge of emotion there.

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

Karel never had the chance to be close with his father and as the father was praising his son for shooting down a bird, Karel wished that he did things with his Dad but that was never to be.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

Sophie loves Karel very much and I think it doesn't matter if she knows about his philanderings or not.

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? 

Karel hired Joe and Raymond to carry his beer to specific places that he had dealings with. Compared to Karel, these two boys are young and reckless. Joe gets some birdshot in his shoulder and then Raymond spills beer all over a saloon's floor. He also sets fire to Karel's barn. Joe is a follower while Raymond does the action.

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

Karel knows the boys have been up to no good and searches for them, talking to Villasenor and finding out what they're doing. He doesn't find them and decides to go home. I think the boys' actions speak for themselves as they steal beer and wreak havoc,it became clear to me that they were not going to last long. That Karel was eventually going to find them and make them pay.

[LadyMin]

Oh yes, I definitely have to agree with you here. Too vivid in what I would call some of the more ... ummm... icky moments. The cow, the tobacco, and the one that got me, the description of the smell of Elizka the next morning. Unfortunately for me I was reading that part while enjoying my breakfast. 

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flouncyninja wrote:

I disliked this section for much of the reason I liked the first third of the book - the vivid descriptions.  It just became too overwhelming with the descriptions of chewing tabacco and the death of the cow with her half born calf.  These might be particular "squick" moments for me, but there were too many vivid descriptions of events and actions that made me feel a little ill.  I guess that's what I get for reading this when allergies have given me a weak stomach to begin with. 

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[LadyMin]

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

When he saw the father and son together, that's the moment when the realization hit him that, yes, he has a son now too. Deep down, Karel wants to be a good father, something he didn't have. So he turns around and goes back for his son. I am quite sure if the baby was a daughter he would not have returned.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

They have a good relationship.There is a genuine fondness between Sophie and Karel. 

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond?

I'd like to think he was giving them a chance since their life was such a mess. Maybe he was just being lazy and it was convenient to hire them because they were there and available. Even though he was aware they were trouble I don't think he ever suspected they would mess things up as badly as they did.

 At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened?

I am still not 100% clear what happened here. I am going to go back and read this part again. I went through it pretty fast because I wanted to find out what happened, but this is a book that deserves a slow read so that passages and descriptions of events can be completely digested.

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[Lil_Irish_Lass]

I find it interesting that while the female characters addressed in this novel are all strong women, they are completely forced into the background as if the narrative itself is a victim of the time setting where women were seen as property and not individuals (let alone equals).

I also agree that Karel is a combination of the Knedlick twins; especially when Joe sees the filly and feels the need to make sure she gets out of the fire as well. And then finding her to lean on as a way to get away from the fire now that he can't run. He appreciates her in a way that Karel would.

It was hard to put the book down after I finished this section - I truly did want to continue to find out what happens to Joe (not so much his brother Raymond) and how it will impact Karel in the eyes of his brothers and father-in-law.

[Lil_Irish_Lass]

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maxcat wrote:

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? 

Karel hired Joe and Raymond to carry his beer to specific places that he had dealings with. Compared to Karel, these two boys are young and reckless. Joe gets some birdshot in his shoulder and then Raymond spills beer all over a saloon's floor. He also sets fire to Karel's barn. Joe is a follower while Raymond does the action.

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I believe it's Thom's barn. Karel only has work horses, though in his heart he would love to have horses like the ones his brother breeds.

I think, in their own way, the twins are trying to make "daddy proud". I honestly don't believe they have any ill intentions in regards to Karel. They want to go above and beyond what he told them to do (they did even mention regretting not getting the dead cow and calf out of the pasture so Karel wouldn't have to deal with it) in the hopes of earning his praise and respect.

I don't believe that it has crossed their minds at all that what they are doing is going to get them killed and make Karel's life even more difficult since he'll be the one who is held responsible for their actions. At this point they are in way over their heads and the hole they dug is too deep to get out of. It will be a vicious spiral until one or both of them is dead.

[CAG]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Hi all, please use any of the following question to continue our discussion of Wake of Forgiveness!

We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

I see Vaclav as being more humane towards his sons during their early years. I have always believed he loved them but because of his nature, didn't show his feelings for them, at least not after his wife died. He became more bitter and angry, cold and mean with the passing of years, and so in this part of the story I saw a more likeable side to him.

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

I think it hits him he has a son and how much he does care for his wife and daughters too. He wants to go back and be with them and recognizes that as important. He is filled with happiness and gratitude about his life.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

Basically I believe they have a good and easy relationship and that is confirmed for me by the teasing.

Why did Karel hire the twins, Joe and Raymond? Why did he feel some affinity for the boys? How do you compare their characters with Karel's now that we've seen them in action? 

Joe and Raymond represented a way to make his farm prosper and grow. I think he felt if he had help he could become more successful. I think he also felt he could help the twins by offering them a job and it was like a repayment to their mother for nursing him. He also knew their life had been difficult and identified with them.

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

Karel slowly began piecing together what happened. I liked the way the events unfolded. Itwas like the reader was in Karel's head. It kept me interested and invested in getting to thetruth. It took me awhile to figure it all out. I stared thinking one thing happened and thendiscovered it wasn't quite that way. The twins did what they did for revenge and withoutthinking of the consequences. I don't see them as evil but more as implusive. They wereheaded towards great deal of trouble.

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[coffee_luvr]

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Rachel-K wrote:

We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

Yes, I did feel that the Vaclav's character took on more humane characteristics at this point.  I couldn't help but feel that he probably was reminded of his loss every time he looked at Karel and the things she used to touch became so important to him.  That was a rare look inside this character. 

I don't know how to reconcile this with the fact that he used his boys to pull a plow rather than his horses.  That is just really, really tough! 

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

I thought he turned around to watch this because it represented what he wished he had both with his father and now just maybe, he could have it as a father to his own son.  An opportunity to possibly change the cycle. 

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[CAG]

I just wanted to make a comment about several readers finding the "vivid descriptions" in this story as somewhat overwhelming. I do respect that opinion but for me those "vivid descriptions" are what made the book seem so real to me both in the first and second sections. I like my books to feel real, the characters, the settings etc. The descriptions are what made me see Bruce Machart as a talented writer. I am interested in what anyone else has to say and how the descriptions add or take away from this story as far as others are concerned. The differing opinions are what makes these discussions so interesting to me.

[vpenning]

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We open with our only childhood scene so far after the first pages of the novel. Does Vaclav become more "human" for us, if not more humane, toward his boys? We get, for example, an image of Vaclav making breakfast for the young boys and watching them eat, warning them to be careful with their mother's dishes. How does such a scene fit with the man who would put yokes on his sons for plowing? 

This scene for me, along with the one with the picture in the frame both speak of Vaclav's love for his wife, but it also shows his concern more for objects over his children. He cares more about the picture and the dishes than the feelings or the distress of his children. He does not care that his son's reaching out to an inanimate object for comfort, or that his older brothers are trying to be the parent that is lacking in the young boys life (their own, for that matter.) He cooks the breakfast, but instead of being concerned that they are getting enough to eat, or that they are enjoying the food, he wants them to be careful of dishes. Again, this just shows disregard for the boys.

Why does Karel turn his truck around after watching a boy and his father hunt along the roadside?

 I  believe it is too painful for him to watch what he never had.

What does Sophie's teasing of him tell us about their relationship?

This, I believe, speaks to the kindness that is in Karel. The love he has for the woman, and his friendship that he has with her.

How many misunderstandings can we trace in the mess of events that unfolds at the end of these chapters? What was the effect of the extended and unclear way we learn of the events that have transpired with the boys, Thomas, the alcohol, and all of it. At what point did you feel you developed a clear picture of what had happened? Is Karel able to clarify what's happened?

  I am still developing my thoughts in the area, and wish to know more. I feel that we are given more into the relationship between Karel and what transpired to make the rift, and also some insight into the regret on their part that it exists.

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