Wake of Forgiveness: The Land and People

[Rachel-K]

We find the crowd described almost as a character--at the races, and at the dance in Praha. What kind of personality does the group of townspeople have when they are gathered together in the scenes so far? 

Both Vaclav and Karel have thoughts comparing their own natures to the qualities of the land they work. Do you see similar qualities between them?

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters? 

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

[Zia01]

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters?  I think the land and horses play a large role and I do feel as if they are characters in and of themselves. They're parts are important enough that the book wouldn't be the same without them.

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain? I found this to be a very strange chapter and I remember thinking at the time, how does this fit into the book? So I'm not too sure yet what to make of it or if I will ever be able to make anything of it.

[thewanderingjew]

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain? 

The infant opossum is overcome by nature's stronger Horned Owl. Father Carew is overcome by the needs of his "flesh", rather than the needs of his G-d.

In their own way, they are both victims or weaker prey for the stronger. They are both, the poor opossum and the Pastor, ravaged by the elements. One is ravaged by the "wrath of G-d" perhaps, in the form of  the storm and the other, is sacrificed to the stronger creature in nature and supplies his food.

Both are done in by their weakness!

[coffee_luvr]

Both Vaclav and Karel have thoughts comparing their own natures to the qualities of the land they work. Do you see similar qualities between them?

I did see some similarities between the land and the father.  I found Vaclav to be harsh and unforgiving much like nature can be.   

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters? 

I really feel that the natural world plays a huge part in this story.  I think you could not write a story about ranching or farming and not include the land and the weather as an integral character. 

The first few pages where it talks about how the Vaclav saved his horses for racing was very telling.  These animals held a higher position than the sons and were treated better it seems.  

Also as an example the way the priest's horse in the chapter referenced in the next question turns away from the priest as if she is avoiding sight of him shows how important the relationships are between man and horse throughout this book.

I found myself having strong feelings for the horses throughout the book.

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?

I remember thinking this was an interesting perspective and when I finished that chapter I thought the author was giving us a snapshot of survival and how the strong most often succeed. I also felt that the priest in the end of this chapter was a symbol of weakness and bad choices and how weakness can "ensnare" us much like the barbed wire ensnared him.

[cathy58]

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?

I had no idea what he was talking about.  I realized that I was totally lost.  Personally, I don't care for writers that jump back and forth between years.  Once I understood that was what he was doing, I understood the rest of the book.

[DSaff]

I have only read the first section, but this book has brought out some real emotions in me. I have wanted to beat Vaclav for the way he treats his sons and animals. The riding crop, hmmmm.....  Well, on with the question.

The crowd, made up almost entirely of men, works like a child playing both ends against the middle. They are for whoever wins and their allegiance shifts accordingly. It doesn't bode well for any true, lasting friendships, I fear. I don't like these men and in this section, have found nothing redeeming in them. While they work hard to provide for their household, they are abusive to their wives and children. It is very sad. I had hope for Karel when he was playing and laughing with his daughters, but when he had sex with Elizka while his wife was giving birth, I lost any hope. Here's hoping I am wrong and there are some worthwhile men here.

The land and animals are characters to me. They are very much alive and react to their environment. The land is hard and difficult to break for farming, but totally gives way when the rains come. It is like it is taunting the men, trying to break them. The land seems to want to win against the foreign hand of man, but the elements, nature, can caress it and wear it away. The horses are especially in tune with their surroundings. They react to threats (knife), the whip, and to words. I found it unforgivable that Karel's father caused deformity in his sons while coddling his horses in nice, warm stables. Then, to see the fear he caused in the horses and to know his sons laughed and didn't mind it. well.....

As far as Father Carew, he knew he shouldn't go to the race. It was wrong for him, but he went anyway. It made me think of this line from the Bible, "...be sure, your sins will find you out." Numbers 32:23b

[BookWoman718]

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What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

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Beautifully written, like many passages in the book, but a distraction from the flow of the plot.  I found that problem in many places.  This book has so much that's brutal and violent, and there are many times that as a reader you want to know what happens next;  how is this going to be resolved?  But to get the answer, you must slow down and get through descriptive passages before you can go on.  I found myself frustrated by the dichotomy.  The book cries out to be read slowly, savoring the language, almost as if it were poetry,  but the plot and characters are so unsavory that we want to dash through, and just see how badly it's all going to end. 

[deannafrances]

I  started the book and after reading some of the comments in other sections, I was sure I was given the wrong book--so I was glad to see the previous posting that someone else finds the main character to be very unsympathic and noticed the cruelty in the book.  I also wonder about the fact in such harsh circumstances if it really would be possible to keep the horses only for racing and not use them on the farm for anything else.  It seems an overly luxurious indulgence.  I just can't imagine it--having lived in rural areas for the last 40 years of my life.

[dhaupt]

We find the crowd described almost as a character--at the races, and at the dance in Praha. What kind of personality does the group of townspeople have when they are gathered together in the scenes so far? 

I don't see the crowd as a character of it's own, I can see the delineation of the individuals described- I see the crowds described more or less as scenery.

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters? 

I see the land and the horses almost more like adjectives and sometimes adverbs to the human characters of the novel, not (so far) as characters themselves.

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

Well for one thing it gave attention to the priest who was caught if only by the owl with dereliction of what he was supposed to be doing. But I'm sure it symbolizes something significant that my small mind can't get around at this point except perhaps that it gave us a bird's eye view of what was going on down below.

[thewanderingjew]

I actually found the passage about the owl and the opossum very relevant because the theme of the weak being devoured or overcome by the strong is very prevalent in the book, at least, i felt that way in the first assigned reading.

However, the theme of might making right, is not, since the outcome of the battles often seems so unjust on the face of it.

twj

PS: i posted this a few posts above, and it may clarify my feelings.

The infant opossum is overcome by nature's stronger Horned Owl. Father Carew is overcome by the needs of his "flesh", rather than the needs of his G-d.

In their own way, they are both victims or weaker prey for the stronger. They are both, the poor opossum and the Pastor, ravaged by the elements. One is ravaged by the "wrath of G-d" perhaps, in the form of  the storm and the other, is sacrificed to the stronger creature in nature and supplies his food.

Both are done in by their weakness!

Does anyone agree, disagree?

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BookWoman718 wrote:

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What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

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Beautifully written, like many passages in the book, but a distraction from the flow of the plot.  I found that problem in many places.  This book has so much that's brutal and violent, and there are many times that as a reader you want to know what happens next;  how is this going to be resolved?  But to get the answer, you must slow down and get through descriptive passages before you can go on.  I found myself frustrated by the dichotomy.  The book cries out to be read slowly, savoring the language, almost as if it were poetry,  but the plot and characters are so unsavory that we want to dash through, and just see how badly it's all going to end. 

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[LindaEducation]

I feel the horses all have their own character and play a significant part in the book as does the land. I found myself drawn to both from the start.  Also the horses do not work the field or plow. Their sole purpose is to mate...and race.  Vaclav makes his 4 boys do the work around the fields.  He seems to put the horses on a pedestal compared to his family. 

[Deltadawn]

Both Vaclav and Karel have thoughts comparing their own natures to the qualities of the land they work. Do you see similar qualities between them?

Both Vaclav and Karel are hard and tough - much like the land they work. Yes, I see similar qualities between these two characters - however, given his harsh existence, Karel is this way as a direct result of his "upbringing" - the treatment he received at the hands of his father, the absence of any affection or caring, or true connection... & of course the absence of his mother). From the glimpses we have so far gotten into their minds, I feel that Karel may be redeemable - while Vaclav surely is not.

[PiperMurphy]

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What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

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I went back and reread this chapter. I'm glad I did. It's beautiful, poetic, chilling, and creepy all at the same time. I think that it is meant to foreshadow Father Carew's fate. The owl with the baby opossum is a metaphor for Father Carew being caught in the fence. The owl's talons are the same to the opossum that barbed wire is to Father Carew. It's amazing to think of it that way. Father Carew was someplace that he wasn't supposed to be. Nobody knew that he was there. Karel went by without paying attention to him. I think that he is more seriously injured than he realizes. I don't think that this is going to have a happy ending.

[blkeyesuzi]

I love what all of you have shared so far.  This is what I adore about this book club.

I think the crowd is our first introduction to people other than our main characters, too.  At first, we might imagine that this father is not only cruel, but unlike any other person imaginable.  At least, that was my first impression..Once I had an opportunity to see the other men who were as cruel and heartless, I started to realize that the way of life they were enduring had hardened them and they fed off of each other.  It was a survival of the fittest mentality among those men and the strongest among them was not only the winner, but the one they held in high esteem.  Karel's father seems to have no esteem except that which his horses provide him and he has allowed the horses to figuratively and literally take the place of his own sons in every manner.  These men live by their wits, rather than their conscience.

The Father's appearance on the scene was so artfully done.  He was succumbing to temptation, as he wanted to know the outcome and see the race for himself.  It showed how human he was and how hard he tried to overcome the ways of the world.  His entanglement in the barbed wire and the broken vial around his neck beautifully portrayed his "fall from grace" and once seen by Karel, I could feel his humiliation.  Beautifully done.  The father is fighting his own battle against evil.  None of us are immune.

The novel shows great cruelty and at times it's hard to read, but I couldn't imagine it done any other way.  These men, the boys, and their fathers are products of cruelty.  I'm anxious to see how the characters grow and whether any one of them will overcome despite everything.  This is a wonderful story of human existence and perhaps the human spirit...we'll see.

[CAG]

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Rachel-K wrote:

We find the crowd described almost as a character--at the races, and at the dance in Praha. What kind of personality does the group of townspeople have when they are gathered together in the scenes so far? 

I think they represent the people of this time. They are like a character-coming together, looking for something to change their difficult life, if even for an hour or two. The people in this story are strong and determined to survive. They are human and need and want entertainment just like anyone else. 

Both Vaclav and Karel have thoughts comparing their own natures to the qualities of the land they work. Do you see similar qualities between them?

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters? 

The horses and the land are characters to me. They gave me a picture of the times from a different perspective and help make the story as strong as it is. It was a harsh time and nature demanded much from the people who lived then.

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

I think it was one more way the writer gives us a picture about this time in Texas and what it took to survive. Nature can be unforgiving and Father Carew at the end of this passage may need to forgive himself. Others who saw him may need to forgive him. Forgiveness and what it means to those who are weak and those who are strong is a constant theme with many of the characters (including the land and nature) throughout this story.

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[BookWoman718]

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deannafrances wrote:

I  started the book and after reading some of the comments in other sections, I was sure I was given the wrong book--so I was glad to see the previous posting that someone else finds the main character to be very unsympathic and noticed the cruelty in the book.  I also wonder about the fact in such harsh circumstances if it really would be possible to keep the horses only for racing and not use them on the farm for anything else.  It seems an overly luxurious indulgence.  I just can't imagine it--having lived in rural areas for the last 40 years of my life.

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Apparently Vaclav has enriched himself by racing - winning large land holdings - far more than he would have had he used the horses for low margin farm work.  He pampers them only so long as he can profit by them;  once they have served that purpose, he has no compunction about gelding them and selling them off, or working them hard. 

[RIRN56]

We find the crowd described almost as a character--at the races, and at the dance in Praha. What kind of personality does the group of townspeople have when they are gathered together in the scenes so far? 

They seemed to be fun-loving people during the dance segment. I pictured both men and women attending. I also felt that most of the men there were really into the drinking aspect of the party! I pictured the women as strict , God loving women who probably brought a ton of food and baked goods.

The crowds at the races seemed to be all men to me...men who loved betting, fighting, racing, and excitement.

[RIRN56]

How would you describe the backdrop of the natural world in the these scenes? Do we come to know the horses or the land as if they were characters? 

The farms seemed to be huge portions of land, which I pictured as being hilly and dry. I pictured a lot of fencing, and dirt roads, dingy barns, and lots of horses. I didn't associate the horses or the land as characters. I just pictured it more like the midwest, with some trees and woods for the race scenes.

[thewanderingjew]

This book really made me think.

I found many similarities and superficially, off the top of my head, here are some:

Raymond, the Dalton boy and Karel have scars on their faces.

Karel and the Knedlik brothers may have been responsible for the death of  their fathers.

Graziella and Elitzka use their bodies effectively to get what they want.

Villasenor and Vaclav are ruthless in their need to win.
Dvorak and Dalton scheme for revenge.

Many want what they can't attain. The widow wants a  child and instead helps others to have them. Karel wants a mother. He also wants Graciella. Vaclev wants his wife back and accumulates property instead.

So many men are consumed by greed and use any means to get it.

So many have unfulfilled dreams beyond their grasp.

Did anyone discover other common threads or more of these?

[RIRN56]

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

In that section, I pictured the opossum prey, and Father Carew as both vulnerable to life's weaknesses. It's obvious how the opossum is weaker than the hunting owl, but for Father, I think the weakness was for his desire to watch the race. It showed that besides being a man of the cloth, he was simply a man, with desires and vulnerability like all of the other men.