Wake of Forgiveness: The Land and People

[ToniWI]

I find it interesting that there is such a close parallel between Karel's birth and the birth of the calf.  Karel's mother and the heifer died in the middle of birthing their young.  Is it a meant as a way for Karel to remember his part in his mother's death, or is it something that will be repeated throughout Karel's life in some way or anther.  It will be interesting what this detail really means if it means anything at all.

[1archi1]

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ToniWI wrote:

I find it interesting that there is such a close parallel between Karel's birth and the birth of the calf.  Karel's mother and the heifer died in the middle of birthing their young.  Is it a meant as a way for Karel to remember his part in his mother's death, or is it something that will be repeated throughout Karel's life in some way or anther.  It will be interesting what this detail really means if it means anything at all.

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 I didn't really think of this at the time I read this section but it is a great observation ToniWI.  Thanks for posting it.

[blkeyesuzi]

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ToniWI wrote:

I find it interesting that there is such a close parallel between Karel's birth and the birth of the calf.  Karel's mother and the heifer died in the middle of birthing their young.  Is it a meant as a way for Karel to remember his part in his mother's death, or is it something that will be repeated throughout Karel's life in some way or anther.  It will be interesting what this detail really means if it means anything at all.

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What I drew from this was the fact that this is the same cow Karel kicked earlier.  It was his anger and his actions that likely caused the complications. Had he been there for the birth, it's likely the cow and the calf would have survived, because he could have been there to help. 

Interestingly, he was absent for the birth of his son and also absent for the birth of the calf.  He almost lost his wife and son with a difficult birth, too.  So far, this novel has shown just how precarious life is.  From birth, it's a fight for survival.

[Peppermill]

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blkeyesuzi wrote:

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ToniWI wrote:

I find it interesting that there is such a close parallel between Karel's birth and the birth of the calf.  Karel's mother and the heifer died in the middle of birthing their young.  Is it a meant as a way for Karel to remember his part in his mother's death, or is it something that will be repeated throughout Karel's life in some way or anther.  It will be interesting what this detail really means if it means anything at all.

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What I drew from this was the fact that this is the same cow Karel kicked earlier.  It was his anger and his actions that likely caused the complications. Had he been there for the birth, it's likely the cow and the calf would have survived, because he could have been there to help. 

Interestingly, he was absent for the birth of his son and also absent for the birth of the calf.  He almost lost his wife and son with a difficult birth, too.  So far, this novel has shown just how precarious life is.  From birth, it's a fight for survival.

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Interesting conversation here.  It just occurred to me that somewhere there is a suggestion that the midwife was not called early enough at the time of Karel's birth.  I believe it was a comment by the midwife who delivered Karel and Sophie's son.

Is there a hint here that, although we are accountable and responsible for our own actions, we depend on each other as peoples to survive, to thwart or soften our most careless emotions and actions?  That when we go it alone, we face especial dangers of being overwhelmed or lacking balance in our choices?  And, when we trust others, we still face the risk of betrayal of that trust -- as of the twins who were to have cared for Karel and Sophie's place?

[thewanderingjew]

The incident with the Knedlich twins troubled me. Both seemed to want to do what Karel asked, at first, even in so far as selling the beer more quickly so they could get some kind of a bonus but then they went to the Gonzales property, behaved badly and the worm turned for them with Joe getting shot with birdshot.

I wondered why the property was not called the Skala property since Thom was living there and I wondered why they went there since they were aware that Karel was their brother and in competition with them. The plot became confusing for me here. I didn't find my answer in the second part...maybe I will in the last one.

I also wondered, since Joe jumps on what I think could be Graciela's filly as the place is burning, will this be the way Karel finds his way back to his brothers? He seems to be hinting that he would like to have that closeness again.

An interesting character trait that Joe and Karel share is their love for an imaginary or unattainable female. Karel is enamored with his mother and Graciela and Joe is enamored with a fictional character, Judith, in a newspaper serial.

[dhaupt]

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thewanderingjew wrote:

The incident with the Knedlich twins troubled me. Both seemed to want to do what Karel asked, at first, even in so far as selling the beer more quickly so they could get some kind of a bonus but then they went to the Gonzales property, behaved badly and the worm turned for them with Joe getting shot with birdshot.

I wondered why the property was not called the Skala property since Thom was living there and I wondered why they went there since they were aware that Karel was their brother and in competition with them. The plot became confusing for me here. I didn't find my answer in the second part...maybe I will in the last one.

I also wondered, since Joe jumps on what I think could be Graciela's filly as the place is burning, will this be the way Karel finds his way back to his brothers? He seems to be hinting that he would like to have that closeness again.

An interesting character trait that Joe and Karel share is their love for an imaginary or unattainable female. Karel is enamored with his mother and Graciela and Joe is enamored with a fictional character, Judith, in a newspaper serial.

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Hi twj, I also had trouble with the extent that the boys took the grudge against Thom, but it seems to me that they've had no supervision for a while and while their parents were living they weren't much of parents, their dad is abusive and their mom is the submissive who won't lift a hand to stop the abuse, not that she could get very far if she did.

I think the property was not called the Skala property the same way Guy Ritchie was called Mr. Madonna.

[thewanderingjew]

I love it!

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dhaupt wrote:

...snip

I think the property was not called the Skala property the same way Guy Ritchie was called Mr. Madonna.

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[krb2g]

I'm struck by how *different* Vaclav's relationship to the land seems to be from that of most of the other characters: while the whole community is subject to the harsh conditions of this time, only Vaclav saves his horses for racing and works his sons in the plow (so that the land can actually write its mark onto their bodies, in the form of their twisted necks). Similarly, when Villaseñor offers his daughters as wives for three of Vaclav's four sons, Vaclav isn't interested in the money or land they might bring as dowry--but instead worries about the loss of his sons to work the land.

[sarah_in_ca]

The crowd at the races seems almost sinister to me, men appearing out of the dark , bringing their liquor to cool in the stream, making bets on a race with money they probably should put toward food for their families.  It's like an uspoken fraternity.  The dance crowd,too, becomes quite loud and wild, again with lots of beer flowing.  The people in this story lead hard lives, and when they race, dance, or whatever, it's their emotional outlet.

Vaclav and Karel both value land ownership.  Vaclav, however, treats his land harshly, plowing over and over again, even in the rain.  He uses his land to gain in other ways.  Karel has more respect for his land, working it to his advantage, but also caring for it, and feeling proud of what he owns.

Father Carew, deep down inside, has the same instincts as the men in his surrounding community--but he has to suppress them.  He just can't help himself from diverting his horse to watch the race, and gets in over his head.  I felt sorry for him for a while, but for all the misadventures he had, he DID see the race!

[Immortal-Spirit]

What do you make of the brief chapter from the perspective of the horned owl and it's infant opossum prey, that ends with Father Carew, who has injured himself while sneaking away from the horse race in the rain?  

Again, the vivid description of the owl reminded me of Steinbeck's use of the turtle in The Grapes of Wrath.  I am not 100% certain if there is intended symbolism in Machart's use of the owl, but my impression was that, much like Karel, the opossum was not totally in control of his own destiny and that the stronger forces at play in the world (the owl) had wrenched him away from what might have been a "normal" life.  Similarly, the death of Karel's mother removed all sense of normalcy from his life before he ever really had a chance.  I am still trying to figure out Father Carew's place in the story.  I was confused by what occurred between Carew's injury and Karel's coming across the priest in the storm.  I am not sure if Karel actually saw something or interpreted something incorrectly.

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When Karel saw Father Carew, I wondered why he didn't stop.

[vamomvb]

As far as seeing the horses as characters, I definitely felt that Whiskey and the filly both had distinct roles in the book and identified with both of them as characters. Thom's (or his f-i-l's) horses, although not distinct characters, did elicit my sympathy when the barn burned. While the twins were readying the barn for the torch, I silently hoped that the horses would somehow be spared, but knew that in this book, that would not work with the undercurrent of tragic violence.