Improper use of Library Materials and other Details

[Immortal-Spirit]

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

[MomOf2Turds]

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Peppermill wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I hope no one took any of the remarks about how Piet parented his children, personally. Our comments are inspired by the characters in the book and are not about the people posting. We all live our lives as best we can. Our comments are opinions and not judgments about right and wrong for anyone but ourselves.

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TWJ -- it seems to me that we have touched the power of fiction to elucidate things that matter, in our own lives, in our larger communities.

I like to think I understand the "heart" that led you to this post and I respect it and the caring of this community that you express.   However, I also like to believe that at least most of us are tough enough to participate in the thrust and parry and to emerge with a bigger and deeper picture of the story, each other, and our world.  But thanks for asking us to pause and consider.

Pepper

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I was originally just going to reply to TWJ's post, until I saw Pepper's reply, as well, and thought I would include it, too.

Pepper has put it wonderfully.  I am not taking any of the parenting remarks personally.  I, for one, enjoy people explaining why they see things the way they do to me.  Sometimes I tend to start seeing things the same way.  Others, not so much.  That is was discussions are all about.  Even if I don't agree with someone's point of view, if they take the time to explain why they see it that way, I can understand their point of view.  

I, as well, hope no one took anything of my remarks personally.  And again, Pepper put it perfect.

[Vermontcozy]

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MomOf2Turds wrote:

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Peppermill wrote:

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thewanderingjew wrote:

I hope no one took any of the remarks about how Piet parented his children, personally. Our comments are inspired by the characters in the book and are not about the people posting. We all live our lives as best we can. Our comments are opinions and not judgments about right and wrong for anyone but ourselves.

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TWJ -- it seems to me that we have touched the power of fiction to elucidate things that matter, in our own lives, in our larger communities.

I like to think I understand the "heart" that led you to this post and I respect it and the caring of this community that you express.   However, I also like to believe that at least most of us are tough enough to participate in the thrust and parry and to emerge with a bigger and deeper picture of the story, each other, and our world.  But thanks for asking us to pause and consider.

Pepper

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I was originally just going to reply to TWJ's post, until I saw Pepper's reply, as well, and thought I would include it, too.

Pepper has put it wonderfully.  I am not taking any of the parenting remarks personally.  I, for one, enjoy people explaining why they see things the way they do to me.  Sometimes I tend to start seeing things the same way.  Others, not so much.  That is was discussions are all about.  Even if I don't agree with someone's point of view, if they take the time to explain why they see it that way, I can understand their point of view.  

I, as well, hope no one took anything of my remarks personally.  And again, Pepper put it perfect.

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Thank you All for Expressing how you feel..and the importance of communication..Not wanting to appear off standish or cold,I hope no one took my post in that way...Thank you Pepper for taking the time once again and put into words what many of us are feeling....Best Susan....

[MomOf2Turds]

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

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I, too, found the tulips surprising.  But then again, I've found a LOT of things in this book surprising.  I guess my I've lived my life a little more sheltered than I thought.  

[JaneM]

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MomOf2Turds wrote:

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

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I, too, found the tulips surprising.  But then again, I've found a LOT of things in this book surprising.  I guess my I've lived my life a little more sheltered than I thought.  

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I really liked the irony of hiding the drugs that smell like tulips in tulips!

[DSaff]

I, too, found the use of tulips interesting and something that made sense. It was fascinating reading about the refrigerator temperature and the use of the oven.

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

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[tjewell]

yes, I too was amazed at all the preparation that Piet went through to "get ready to go prison".  He showed what patience he had as well as his attention to detail.  A lot of his preparation did not make a lot of sense to me at the time.  But as you get farther in the book - you understand that everything he did had a definite purpose.  It is amazing to me how he could have thought of all the pitfalls/dangers that he might face. 

The whole thing with the library books was amazing - and the fact that he was not found out by the guards is amazing.

[calb15]

The microphone hiding was really graphic, but I think someone who is  about to negotiate his life is capable of that and more.   The cutting of the books is something I saw one time in a movie, but the drugs in the tulips are totally new for me.

[T-Mo]

Simply, yet perfectly stated. I was surprised and perhaps a bit impressed with the care and precision needed to infuse the delicate and beautiful life-form such as a flower, with the nasty and life-destroying elements of drugs. A bit of a correlation- The flowers represent the beautiful family life Piet has with his wife and kids, yet he is allowing the drugs to destroy that beautiful life just so he can prove his own self-worth to a government that could care less about him as a human being or as a family man. 

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

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[T-Mo]

literature wrote:

When Paula first enters the church grounds, he studies the wind, or lack of wind.  He goes up to the balcony in the church and again observes the wind and the trees by the churchyard wall--"the wind had increased and the bigger branches were moving now."  Wind strength twelve meters per second.  Adjust eight degrees to the right...Distance fifteen hundred and three meters.  Clear view.  Three seconds from firing to impact.  His hand gripped the nonexistent gun hard." I was thrilled when I read the words "Three Seconds", a hint of how the novel got its name.

Excellent observation. I didn’t make the connection between the title of the book to the firing of the pistol. Another excellent example of how wonderful and helpful these discussion threads truly are. 

literature wrote:

Even down to burying the gun.  Who would think to hide a gun in a cementary plot.  The one track he didn't cover, though, was that the soil around the newly buried gun would look different than the rest of the soil; it would look freshly covered over.

In regards to burying the gun though... I believe the gun was put in a book, and the phone that was used to contact Erik Wilson was what was buried at the cemetery. “With a new razorblade, he cut a rectangular hole in the left hand margin of Nineteenth Century Stockholm and The Marionettes. In the first, he put the pieces of what a reader, who knew how, might be able to reassemble into a miniature revolver; the hardest piece was the cylinder loaded with six bullets....” (pg 168) “Piet Hoffmann held his mobile phone in his hand, his contact with Erik that would be cut in less than two hours. He turned it off, wrapped it in plastic wrap, put it in a plastic bag, got down on his knees and started to dig up the earth with his hands at the bottom right of the headstone.... He looked around... dropped the telephone into the ground and covered it with the earth...” (pg 181)

I do agree with your comment about the soil... I thought the same thing. Perhaps though, he was hoping that because the grave was neglected, nobody would be looking at it to notice that the ground had been recently disturbed. 

[T-Mo]

I agree, the size of the pistol was described in wonderful detail in the novel, when Piet first took it out of the gun cabinet- “...no bigger than a car key.” (pg. 155) Yet, when I read it, it didn’t really sink how small it truly was. It sunk in a little more when the authors described it as “A deadly weapon no longer than a toothpick...” (pg. 155) Wow. 

The posted image though, was a great addition to the reading. It really helped put the whole thing in perspective. Thank you, TWJ, for posting that image!

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tamarindo wrote:

And that mini-pistol.  I had no idea such a thing existed, and that it could be fully functional, complete w/ mini bullets!  I just saw the photo that another member posted, and while I knew it was a miniature when reading about it in the novel, looking at that photo and seeing just how tiny that thing was makes me even more surprised that something so small could inflict injury.  But even before that, I'm surprised that someone would take that mini weapon seriously.  If you were at the bank, and someone pulled that mini pistol out, pointed it at you and yelled at you to hand over your money, what would you do?  I think I'd be scared just by the yelling and by the fact that someone was trying to rob me.  But at the same time, I'd take one look at that mini pistol and wonder if I were part of some surreal SNL sketch.  Having said that, though, I don't think I'd want to tempt fate and call the robber's bluff.

[BookWoman718]

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T-Mo wrote:

I agree, the size of the pistol was described in wonderful detail in the novel, when Piet first took it out of the gun cabinet- “...no bigger than a car key.” (pg. 155) Yet, when I read it, it didn’t really sink how small it truly was. It sunk in a little more when the authors described it as “A deadly weapon no longer than a toothpick...” (pg. 155) Wow. 

The posted image though, was a great addition to the reading. It really helped put the whole thing in perspective. Thank you, TWJ, for posting that image!

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tamarindo wrote:

And that mini-pistol.  I had no idea such a thing existed, and that it could be fully functional, complete w/ mini bullets!  I just saw the photo that another member posted, and while I knew it was a miniature when reading about it in the novel, looking at that photo and seeing just how tiny that thing was makes me even more surprised that something so small could inflict injury.  But even before that, I'm surprised that someone would take that mini weapon seriously.  If you were at the bank, and someone pulled that mini pistol out, pointed it at you and yelled at you to hand over your money, what would you do?  I think I'd be scared just by the yelling and by the fact that someone was trying to rob me.  But at the same time, I'd take one look at that mini pistol and wonder if I were part of some surreal SNL sketch.  Having said that, though, I don't think I'd want to tempt fate and call the robber's bluff.

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I wouldn't try to rob a bank with it...  The bullets are really tiny and their being effective at any distance is unlikely.  There is one sure fire way that it IS effective, though, and that's the way Piet plans to employ it.  I think one would take it very seriously at that point  ;-) 

[BookWoman718]

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T-Mo wrote:

Simply, yet perfectly stated. I was surprised and perhaps a bit impressed with the care and precision needed to infuse the delicate and beautiful life-form such as a flower, with the nasty and life-destroying elements of drugs. A bit of a correlation- The flowers represent the beautiful family life Piet has with his wife and kids, yet he is allowing the drugs to destroy that beautiful life just so he can prove his own self-worth to a government that could care less about him as a human being or as a family man. 

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I like the analogy of the flowers to Piet's personal life - although a better flower to represent family life might be a rose, beautiful but watch out for the thorns.  Tulips are just a bit too tender and non-threatening.   And the corruption of that life by allowing drugs at its center, that's very apt, too.

I don't think, though, that Piet is trying to prove his self-worth to the government.  He had found that he is very good at this job.  The best.  He had never been the best at anything.  And with that, he feels a sense of self-esteem that he never had reason to feel before.  He's doing this job for the sense of satisfaction he gets.  He knows full well that the government may not value him at all;  that's why he records the meeting with the bureaucrats.  He's really not doing it for them;  he's doing it because he'll be the winner at a dangerous game and one that no one else can do.

[T-Mo]

I do agree with you- and had meant to convey this is my initial post, but it happened to come out wrong. Piet is not trying to prove himself to the government, but rather is trying to prove to himself that he can be the best at something, and can in-fact finish something. At the same time, however insignificant he may be to the government, he is helping them accomplish their goals, which is why he was taken on as infiltrator in the first place. So in a sense, he is doing it for them because that is what he was hired to do. However, it has grown into a mission of self-satisfaction, as well as having become an addiction, which he is well aware of: "He'd learned to live for the kicks, for the adrenaline that forced his heart to explode in his chest... He was addicted. He didn't know what life was like without the adrenaline, the pride." (pg. 146)

As for roses with thorns and tender tulips, I tend to think that one's own children, at such a young age are tender and non-threatening. And given what he tends to think of and feel for his wife, I can't see her as a thorn in his life. But, that's just my opinion.

Thank you for your comments, and pushing my mind to think further into this! 

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BookWoman718 wrote:

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I like the analogy of the flowers to Piet's personal life - although a better flower to represent family life might be a rose, beautiful but watch out for the thorns.  Tulips are just a bit too tender and non-threatening.   And the corruption of that life by allowing drugs at its center, that's very apt, too.

I don't think, though, that Piet is trying to prove his self-worth to the government.  He had found that he is very good at this job.  The best.  He had never been the best at anything.  And with that, he feels a sense of self-esteem that he never had reason to feel before.  He's doing this job for the sense of satisfaction he gets.  He knows full well that the government may not value him at all;  that's why he records the meeting with the bureaucrats.  He's really not doing it for them;  he's doing it because he'll be the winner at a dangerous game and one that no one else can do.

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[rosia408]

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MomOf2Turds wrote:

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Tulips. Who would have thought.....

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I, too, found the tulips surprising.  But then again, I've found a LOT of things in this book surprising.  I guess my I've lived my life a little more sheltered than I thought.  

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I was quite surprised at many of the details in this book. Proves to me that authors have done a magnificent job in their research. This book as been an education into the world of drug smuggling, and given me empathy to see the shades of "gray" with the supposedly good and bad characters. I am currently watching a series from Showtime. Interesting to see there as well that the "good" characters are not so good and the criminals who are certainly bad have heart.

As for the calpol, Piet did what he needed to do for his own "insurance", trusting no one. He loved his family and would have been home taking care of the boys if he had another choice.

Rose

[CAG]

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Rachel-K wrote:

Thought we could use a  slightly lighter thread for such an intense novel! I am struck by the level of detail we get about the nitty-gritty of the drug trade, from the bodily hiding of drugs and microphones to the use of tulips and (gasp) cutting up dusty book of poetry from the library!

Did you find any of the novel's details to be particularly disturbing or surprising? I don't want to think of Three Seconds as a useful instruction manual to a life of crime, but I was tremendously impressed by the ingeniously practical aspects of drug trade that I never would have thought of!

The tulips surprised me but using books to hide the drugs didn't.

Another lighter question about the details of the novel: How do you find the details of ordinary life differ across an ocean? Are there things about daily life described in Stockholm that surprise you by their similarly or difference? What people eat for breakfast or the boy's nursery school?

I think there are more similarities than differences. Certainly the daily life-like going to work, taking kids to nursery school, sharing responsibilities for the home/children are similar to us and that does surprise me a little.  I haven't seen any big differences (except maybe what they eat) and I guess I thought there would be. Very interesting.

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[vpenning]

I thought several times that the detail was like a book of instructions for the drug trade...though, I wonder if rules are different in that part of the world, than in this one.

I know of someone who was in prison. Books could only be borrowed from the prison library, and not outside...and books could ONLY come from the distributer-like Amazon. They could not be sent via a third part source. The reason was because prisoners had smuggled in drugs that way.

I also wonder about the tulips. Though it seems logical, I know from experience that petals are not that firm...and wonder would it actually hold anything.

I did find some of the details a bit excessive. I did not need total detail in regards to body cavity drug smuggling. I also did not need the gruesome detail involve in the vomiting either...but, I am sure that the author meant for me to feel that, so I could make it contrast to the life that Peit was dreaming of having with his wife and children.

[jb11]

How do you find the details of ordinary life differ across an ocean? Are there things about daily life described in Stockholm that surprise you by their similarly or difference? What people eat for breakfast or the boy's nursery school?

Interesting question because I was remembering how abundant flowers, tulips in particular, are in the spring in northern Europe.  Americans don't use cut flowers on a daily/weekly basis like Europeans do, so the idea of tulips would be something quite common and as such, an inconspicuous way to smuggle drugs. 

[thewanderingjew]

I sent a book to someone in prison. I did have to follow lots of rules. The subject matter could not contain anything that would encourage crime or escape, I think. All letters were read and would sometimes have blacked out words. I suppose they could do that to a book too. I did buy it from a private bookseller and they advised me on what would be acceptable. I think I had to ship it in a certain way too. I don't remember.

Once I visited someone in a Federal prison. It is an unnerving experience because you have no control. I don't think we were allowed to even bring in food but the person I was with, did sneak some in. I was terrified when I found out.

When I was young I studied criminology. I visited Riker's Island and boy, if that doesn't cure you from ever having a life of crime, nothing will!

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vpenning wrote:

I thought several times that the detail was like a book of instructions for the drug trade...though, I wonder if rules are different in that part of the world, than in this one.

I know of someone who was in prison. Books could only be borrowed from the prison library, and not outside...and books could ONLY come from the distributer-like Amazon. They could not be sent via a third part source. The reason was because prisoners had smuggled in drugs that way.

I also wonder about the tulips. Though it seems logical, I know from experience that petals are not that firm...and wonder would it actually hold anything.

I did find some of the details a bit excessive. I did not need total detail in regards to body cavity drug smuggling. I also did not need the gruesome detail involve in the vomiting either...but, I am sure that the author meant for me to feel that, so I could make it contrast to the life that Peit was dreaming of having with his wife and children.

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[literature]

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T-Mo wrote:

literature wrote:

When Paula first enters the church grounds, he studies the wind, or lack of wind.  He goes up to the balcony in the church and again observes the wind and the trees by the churchyard wall--"the wind had increased and the bigger branches were moving now."  Wind strength twelve meters per second.  Adjust eight degrees to the right...Distance fifteen hundred and three meters.  Clear view.  Three seconds from firing to impact.  His hand gripped the nonexistent gun hard." I was thrilled when I read the words "Three Seconds", a hint of how the novel got its name.

Excellent observation. I didn’t make the connection between the title of the book to the firing of the pistol. Another excellent example of how wonderful and helpful these discussion threads truly are. 

literature wrote:

Even down to burying the gun.  Who would think to hide a gun in a cementary plot.  The one track he didn't cover, though, was that the soil around the newly buried gun would look different than the rest of the soil; it would look freshly covered over.

In regards to burying the gun though... I believe the gun was put in a book, and the phone that was used to contact Erik Wilson was what was buried at the cemetery. “With a new razorblade, he cut a rectangular hole in the left hand margin of Nineteenth Century Stockholm and The Marionettes. In the first, he put the pieces of what a reader, who knew how, might be able to reassemble into a miniature revolver; the hardest piece was the cylinder loaded with six bullets....” (pg 168) “Piet Hoffmann held his mobile phone in his hand, his contact with Erik that would be cut in less than two hours. He turned it off, wrapped it in plastic wrap, put it in a plastic bag, got down on his knees and started to dig up the earth with his hands at the bottom right of the headstone.... He looked around... dropped the telephone into the ground and covered it with the earth...” (pg 181)

I do agree with your comment about the soil... I thought the same thing. Perhaps though, he was hoping that because the grave was neglected, nobody would be looking at it to notice that the ground had been recently disturbed. 

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You're right, he did bury the telephone.  I knew that but when you sit at the computer at midnight, writing until 1:00 in the morning because you can't tear yourself away from the FLers, you're brain is fried and you can't think straight.