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CAG
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CAG
Posts: 218
Registered: ‎01-15-2007

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

So far what we do know about the murder victim is that he was an informant and was working with the Danish police. I think he was not as experienced as Hoffman and that got him killed.

 

The two teams working for the Swedish Police are in different departments. Grens, Hermansson and Sundkvist are major crime (like murder) detectives and Wilson and Hoffman are on a special assignment, dealing with organized crime. Hoffman is the informant and Wilson is his handler. Grens and his team are investigating the murder which happened during Wilson/Hoffman's operation. I think it is typical in police work to have different people working on different cases and sometimes those may cross. So they seem to me to be part of the same organization.

 

Grens is dedicated to his job and not easily swayed. He is determined to solve his murder case and whatever else comes from that. He is older and I think in some ways wiser than Wilson. I think Wilson is good at what he does and works alone better than with others. He has a lot invested in Hoffman and wants to be able to stop the drug trafficking and the hold organized crime has on it.

 

The increase in the use of undercover civilians is because they are able to penetrate the crime organization more easily and with less risk of being discovered. They have an inside edge that a police detective wouldn't have. I also agree with others who thought they are rather expendable in the eyes of the police.

CAG
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tberra
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I like the older cops  they seem more earthy  and bulldogging Keep at it find out They do seem more  under control even if they are blocked  from getting information from their  counterparts or misinformation they keep digging. The  murder victim  was a Danish undercover operative I'm not sure if he was an undercover cop or an undercover criminal ,he was too new to the game to be as cool as Piet.The  two organizations  appear to be just that 2 different organizations . One in a higher level of  government than the other i.e. local/ national.

 

Why the increase of CHIS  I tend to agree with others answers the civilians are expendable

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Rachel-K
Posts: 1,495
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

[ Edited ]

I got a chuckle from Donna's comment also. I would never have thought of it, but now I have a visual for Grens that sticks.

 

To Superbookworm: It may also be reading names that sound foreign to American ears! I kept a list of names and that helped me to sort out who was doing what a bit more quickly. However, all of our characters are working with deception and discovering deception!

 

To Mommybooknerd: We probably wont put a "spoiler" thread up until quite a bit later. I know it can be difficult! Hang in there.

 

 


tamarindo wrote:

 

I like Donna's comment likening Grens to Columbo.  Grens does remind me of him, hehe! 

 

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BookWoman718
Posts: 220
Registered: ‎01-28-2007

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I'm in agreement with you.  Here is what I posted under the "Part One" thread that is more specifically tied to this "Police Work" thread:

 

I think Grens is very focused on the immediate task, that is, to solve a murder.  This is, for him, a most serious crime and it has always been his duty to go after tough cases.

Erik sees the murder as unfortunate but wants it overlooked so that Piet can move forward in his new, more highly trusted position within the mafia, and eventually bring down the whole organization.  He convinces a very limited number of government  officials of his point of view in that very tense meeting.  Police and prosecutors do it all the time, but there's always some tension in the idea of letting a 'lesser criminal' get off so that the authorities can go after 'bigger fish."   Piet didn't actually pull the trigger (and recall how careful Erik was to assure himself of that)  but he would be an accessory to murder in that he didn't report it and helped to cover it up. 

 

I think Piet is and has been well aware that his life could be on the line at any minute;  that's a normal job condition for any infiltrator.  It's not that he suddently realized "it could be him;"  he knew that all along.  He was almost undone by the Danish agent's death because he is working with the Swedish police who will know he was at the meeting where the death took place.  If they have Grens' point of view that murder is of prime importance, and turn on him, make it 'his fault' that someone got killed, he could lose everything.   The work he has put in to make himself credible to the mafia would go down the drain, and it would be even less possible for the police to stop their expansion.  He could also be personally prosecuted and incarcerated, separated from his beloved family.  Having a murder happen 'on his watch' jeopardizes everything he has worked for and everything he holds dear.

 

I would add here that the increased use of civilians as infiltrators may have budgetary implications.  Societies find that they just can't hire enough police and can reward these ex-cons in a different way.  It also doesn't require coming up with a fully documented fake background;  they actually were in prison, have a history with other known criminals, etc. 

Criminal organizations are now just as technologically savvy (to say nothing of being even more well armed) than the police, and getting someone 'inside' is incredibly difficult, dangerous, and time-consuming. 

 

 

 


CAG wrote:

So far what we do know about the murder victim is that he was an informant and was working with the Danish police. I think he was not as experienced as Hoffman and that got him killed.

 

The two teams working for the Swedish Police are in different departments. Grens, Hermansson and Sundkvist are major crime (like murder) detectives and Wilson and Hoffman are on a special assignment, dealing with organized crime. Hoffman is the informant and Wilson is his handler. Grens and his team are investigating the murder which happened during Wilson/Hoffman's operation. I think it is typical in police work to have different people working on different cases and sometimes those may cross. So they seem to me to be part of the same organization.

 

Grens is dedicated to his job and not easily swayed. He is determined to solve his murder case and whatever else comes from that. He is older and I think in some ways wiser than Wilson. I think Wilson is good at what he does and works alone better than with others. He has a lot invested in Hoffman and wants to be able to stop the drug trafficking and the hold organized crime has on it.

 

The increase in the use of undercover civilians is because they are able to penetrate the crime organization more easily and with less risk of being discovered. They have an inside edge that a police detective wouldn't have. I also agree with others who thought they are rather expendable in the eyes of the police.


 

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Vermontcozy
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

We know he was a Danish Informer like Hoffmann,,But up to now he is not showing up in any data base..Not a surprise,,The Danes know that and will only give Grens ,probably bogus info....How the two Teams differ or are the same isn't clear yet..I know that sharing info between them is not going to happen unless it benefits them..Again very secretive..Not trusting anyone is the norm....Wilson is a double agent..and must work for more then one Organization.but who?..Grens is What you see is what you get..But his mind is clear and focused to solve this crime..Wilson is all over the place,,Very unsteady...Age does come into play,but a Good Officer that is relentless,Grens  and Nils ,Forensic..will leave no stone unturned......Undercover Criminals have been used forever..If treated well and are not Drug Addicts ,are reliable..Just as reliable as a Cop..Very fine line..Must find out more..Looking forward to Pt 2..which I will read by Friday..Its so hard not to....Susan

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Passie71
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

We've observed two teams working for the Swedish Police: Ewert Grens with Mariana Hermansson and Sven Sundkvist, and Erik Wilson with Piet Hoffmann. Can you compare the ways each of these teams work, their characters, and what they do?

Ewert and his team tend to be more by the book in tracking down the killer where as Wilson and Hoffmann are making deals with others and trying to stay alive and out of trouble.

 

Do they even seem to be a part of the same organization?

They may look like they are part of the same organization but they seem to be working against each other not with each other.  They  both have their own agendas. 

 

How do you compare Grens and Wilson as investigators?

 Grens is old school.  Does his work by the book.  Tends to ponder things and think things through.  Wilson on the other hand, in my opinion, seems to enjoy taking risks and shoots from the hip.  He seems to go about things through the back alley door.

 

We also see an older and a younger set of officers in the police force. Grens, Nils, and Einarsson (from the basement) are examples of older officers. How do these two groups compare? Are their differences in attitudes and work styles that you see?

 See above.

 

Why is there such an increase in the use of undercover civilians (CHIS) in the police force?

Probably like all things these days, it is cheap labor and the consequences are maybe not as noticeable.

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Superbookworm
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


Rachel-K wrote:

 

To Superbookworm: It may also be reading names that sound foreign to American ears! I kept a list of names and that helped me to sort out who was doing what a bit more quickly. However, all of our characters are working with deception and discovering deception!


So true!  I'm sure it will get easier after I  get use to all the names.  

 

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Lis49
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Don't feel bad.  I had the same problem and had to read the beginning over again.

Lis49
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Lis49
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I think that Grens is more like the Swedish detective Wallandar.  Both are painfully unhappy where Columbo is not. 

Lis49
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literature
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 

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clodia2
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work


literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


Good point.  And to follow-up on that thought, didn't Paula/Piet burn his clothes?  Whose shirt is it? 

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high96
Posts: 36
Registered: ‎11-03-2010

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


 

I don't think you have missed anything. The shirt was in Piet's hands and then given to Wilson who then planted it for Grens' team to find. Possibly Piet could have put someone else's blood on it. More likely to me that Wilson added someone else's blood to it to either (a.) incriminate a random criminal or (b.) frame Piet into a larger crime so he would be in prison longer.

 

When he is updating Piet's background on the Aspen computer system, Wilson is thinking to himself on page 110 that "In two weeks' time, Piet would be given a long prison sentence and then take over enough power  to control the drug supply, the kind of force that was treated with respect inside."

 

This makes me suspect Wilson of making Piet into a hardened criminal to gain this respect. Busting him for a 2 to 3 month sentence for a drug infraction, which is what Piet thinks is going to happen, doesn't equal a long prison sentence or a force treated with respect to me. 

 

"I don't like secrets! All this cooking, and reading, and TV watching, while we... read and cook! It's like you're involving me in crime, and I let you! Why do I let you?" --Emile in "Ratatouille"
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elaine_hf
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


maxcat wrote:

The murder victim is Danish and an infiltraitor for the Poles. He went by the name Carsten.

Grens and Wright go about police work in their own way. Grens was about to leave the police force, grieving over his wife's death and boxing up cassettes, when this murder occured and he was put on the case. He's very thorough in working a crime scene and even goes to Denmark to meet the man who could identify him under secrecy. It seems once he is on a case, he will not give up until the murderer is caught. Wright goes about police work undercover. He meets clients to see if they would make potential informants. He met Piet and Piet passed all the questions asked. Now Erik wants Piet to infiltrate the prisons and start drug dealing there. He will have to do time in order to get this accomplished.

I think civilians are used as infiltrators to gangs who deal with drugs and sex trafficking. They pretty much haveto know what they are doing or be dead.


 

I guess I had a slightly different take on the book to this point, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The murder victim, Carsten, is Danish and I thought an infiltrator into the Polish mafia, not for the Poles. As stated many times here, he appears to be Piet's equivalent on the Dane's side, but apparently either much less experienced or just a lot more nervous. I have to confess, it makes me nervous just reading the book!

 

I didn't know how to interpret Grens' actions when he was packing up his music, but I didn't think he was preparing to leave the force. I really felt like he took the nurse's comments to heart about moving on, or perhaps it was a deep wound to him, so he went to his office to start that process. 

 

And while Erik wants Piet to infiltrate the prisons, I think also that Piet is putting himself into that situation. What choice does he have? It's cooperate or die. As an ex-con, he would be very familiar with the workings of the drug dealers, and although he seems very nervous about what will happen next, I think he would be more concerned if he weren't going to prison.

‎"Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God." -Bokonon
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high96
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


clodia2 wrote:

literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


Good point.  And to follow-up on that thought, didn't Paula/Piet burn his clothes?  Whose shirt is it? 


Piet states that he took the clothes from Mariusz to destroy them but decided to keep the shirt for insurance. He also has the gun that was used to kill the buyer. He gives both of them to Wilson. 

 

"I don't like secrets! All this cooking, and reading, and TV watching, while we... read and cook! It's like you're involving me in crime, and I let you! Why do I let you?" --Emile in "Ratatouille"
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elaine_hf
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


DSaff wrote:

I have only read the first section for discussion.  :smileywink:


Superbookworm wrote:

Wow you guys are so way ahead of me.  I'm still trying to keep all the characters and names straight.


Yes, this time I'm sticking with the schedule. It's too hard to discuss the early sections if I've read the whole thing, and not blurt out some spoiler!!

 

‎"Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God." -Bokonon
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Ronrose
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I think the police are divided into two schools of thought as to how they fight crime. The traditional school, shown through Grens, Hermansson and Sundkvest, represents the work which has been done by the homicide and other regular police units who follow the time honored practices based on years of police experience, basically, investigate the crime, follow the clues, capture the criminal and lock him up.  On the other hand, the new school represented by Wilson, aided by his informer, Hoffman, seeks to inject itself into the ever present  festering mobs of organized crime that pervade society. In an effort try and stop a torrent of crime, they ignore what they deem to be minor crimes while trying to score major strikes on the body of a seemingly invulnerable opponent. The problem here becomes one of who gets to decide where the line is drawn. What criminal activity is to be allowed in the attempt to prevent other seemingly more serious crimes.  Who is to be sacrificed so that the pursuit of other criminals can be continued. How much humanity do we give up to fight the evil that threatens us.

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nfam
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Although they work in the same office, I don't think Grens and Wilson are actually working for the same police force. Grens is the old time investigator trying to solve one crime at a time. Wilson is looking at the bigger picture, trying to drive events. I don't know whether the two styles of police work are traceable to the age of the investigators, but that does seem to play a role. 

 

It seems to me that Grens and Wilson view the undercover infiltrators differently. For Wilson, they are the whole game. He expects to clean up a major crime group through the use of informers like Piet. Grens appears to have less respect for the undercover infiltrators. I think he still views them as criminals, and I'm not sure he's wrong. 

 

Very interesting group of characters, both the police and the criminals.

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MSaff
Posts: 272
Registered: ‎10-19-2006

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Good Afternoon Everyone, 

 

  I'm not quite sure that I can trust any of the Police, during the investigation of the murder.  No one wants to share anything with anyone else.  Also I am feeling as though some if not most of those involved in the investigation aren't involved in the mafia and drug trafficking in their own way.

 

  What do we know about the murder victim?  Well I don't believe that he was a police officer.  He may have been an informant, and in the words of those in this story, he may have stated that he was a cop, in order to try and save himself from death.

 

  As for the next question, I can only say read my first part of my comments here.  The one I worry about is Piet Hoffmann (aka) Paula, ak) ???  Is he a cop or is he so far gone by his cover, that he has now become the enemy?  And how can he protect his family with being so deep into the mafia and drug trade?  Yes, I know I'm asking a lot of questions here, but I can't help myself.

 

  I didn't see any of the investigative teams as being part of the same organization.  There is too much secrecy amongst the teams and no one wants to give anything to anyone.

 

 

  The only Police Officer I trust is the one in the basement of the Police Headquarters.  

Einarsson, knew when it was time to pack it in as an active participant of the Police, and while he is not actively investigating, he keeps his hand in Law Enforcement by protecting evidence.

 

  I think it's quite obvious why there is an increase in the use of civilian and informant roles.  It is because no one can trust anyone they work with.  Therefore each and every Police Officer has his own way of getting information.

 

  Anyway, that's my take on "Three Seconds" so far. 

 


Rachel-K wrote:
 

What do we know about the murder victim so far?

 

We've observed two teams working for the Swedish Police: Ewert Grens with Mariana Hermansson and Sven Sundkvist, and Erik Wilson with Piet Hoffmann. Can you compare the ways each of these teams work, their characters, and what they do?

 

Do they even seem to be a part of the same organization?

 

 

We also see an older and a younger set of officers in the police force. Grens, Nils, and Einarsson (from the basement) are examples of older officers. How do these two groups compare? Are their differences in attitudes and work styles that you see?

 

Why is there such an increase in the use of undercover civilians (CHIS) in the police force?

 

 


 

Mike
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
http://travelswithcarsandbooks.blogspot.com/
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Tarri
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 

What do we know about the murder victim so far?

The murder victim is doing the same type of undercover infiltration as Piet Hoffman is doing.  Unfortunately for the murder victim, Piet is much better at lying and deceiving.  I think Piet also is better trained.

 

Do they even seem to be a part of the same organization?

No, they don't.  However, I'm sure that this is true of all of the different departments within a law enforcement organization.  In fact, it is my experience that even in the corporate world (I am retired from GTE/Verizon) the different departments are run differently. 

 

How do you compare Grens and Wilson as investigators?

For me the difference is undercover versus investigative.  Wilson runs a group of people who are working outside the law and Grens is all about the law. 

 

 

 

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BookWoman718
Posts: 220
Registered: ‎01-28-2007

Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

[ Edited ]

I think it's not really surprising that Erik doesn't share completely with the 'regular police work' that Gwens is involved with.   They do report to the same supervisor but it appears their areas of concern are very different.  Erik seems to be in what we here would probably call the "Organized Crime Unit"  the investigation of the large organizations that take over whole areas in terms of drug trade, prostitution, gun-running, or what have you.  The identity of the people he's recruited for infiltration must be guarded very carefully;  the more people who know about it, whether they are police or not, the more likely that the cover will be blown somehow.  So it's to be expected that if he needs to cover one 'his' people's tangential involvement in a singular crime - like the murder - he will do that.  (We have an entire witness protection program to hide the identity of people who are or have worked with the police) 

As someone noted, even corporate departments sometimes seem to be working at cross purposes;  the sales staff wants more people out making calls, the auditors want better reporting, and top management may know that they're in talks to sell off a whole division.   I think "trust'  in work situations doesn't mean you get to know everything about someone else's responsibility.  It's more that you can count on them to do the job they've been assigned to.  Lots of times it just isn't appropriate to talk about the details.