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mlfoley012
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I am a little behind and just finished the first section this morning. 

That said...WOW! Interesting conversation already!

I don't think I can add much more to what has been said regarding the original questions but I will add a few comments.

 

I too, do not trust Wilson. I believe he is into more than we know and believe it to be more international.

 

I don't think Piet completely trusts Wilson either and why should he? Fortunately for him he holds all the cards at this point.  I expect that he and Grens will be the last ones standing in the end.

 

I hadn't thought about not likely Zophia....that I need to analyze a bit. Could be on to something there...we don't know much of that story.

 

 

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AIRKNITTER
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Wonder if the fact that the Danish CHIS was a police officer whereas Paula was a criminal and used to lying is why the poor CHIS was murdered.

Children are the living message we send to a time we will not see.
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BookWoman718
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work


AIRKNITTER wrote:

Wonder if the fact that the Danish CHIS was a police officer whereas Paula was a criminal and used to lying is why the poor CHIS was murdered.


I hadn't thought of it that way, but several times in the book characters say words to the effect that 'only a criminal can act like a criminal.'  Or 'only a criminal can talk like a criminal'  so his death sort of proves that point.   I just took it on face value that he wasn't trained as well as he should have been.  We do have undercover police in this country who stay under for months and sometimes years, so I think their skills at lying - or portraying themselves as something they are not - must be pretty well honed. 

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Coral50
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work


Rachel-K wrote:
 

What do we know about the murder victim so far?

 

The murder victim's DNA Profile is from a Danish Citizen called Jens Christian Toft.

---------------------------------------- 

We've observed two teams working for the Swedish Police: Ewert Grens with Mariana Hermansson and Sven Sundkvist, and Erik Wilson with Piet Hoffmann. Can you compare the ways each of these teams work, their characters, and what they do?

 

Ewert Grens with Mariana Hermansson and Sven Sundkvist, use records, evidence and good old police footwork and logic.

Erik Wilson with Piet Hoffmann were informant and police back-up. Piet/Paula can tell Erik what happened and Erik figures out what to do with the evidence. Actually, how they can use it.

-----------------------------------------

 

Do they even seem to be a part of the same organization?

 

No, most of the time Erik is manipulating the evidence and holding back what he knows;  while Ewert's group is studying the evidence and trying to find out logical what's happened.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

How do you compare Grens and Wilson as investigators?

 

I see them working in two different perspectives as police in fighiing crime.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

We also see an older and a younger set of officers in the police force. Grens, Nils, and Einarsson (from the basement) are examples of older officers. How do these two groups compare? Are their differences in attitudes and work styles that you see?

 

The older group works slower, meaning they reason and think about the next step, the evidence they have and how they want to proceed. They have wisdom gathered from the older days whereas the younger group has equipment the elders didn't have.What the machines do is speed up the process and deletes the menial thinking. And yes it may speed the process but little bits of evidence are missed and now they have an unsolved case file

-------------------------------------------------- 

 

Why is there such an increase in the use of undercover civilians (CHIS) in the police force?

 

I'm thinking because the European Mafia is spreading throughout the prison systems, but the undercover civilians (informants) have no way to ID each other. Chaos is amounst them and creating more danger.

------------------------------------------------

 I wish I had the time to reread, but don't want to fall behind and more then I am. I do enjoy reading other answers. It will enlighten some of the dark corners I haven't figured out yet.

On to reading this interesting crime novel

Cora

 

 

 


 

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Coral50
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Ewert Grens is a thoughtful, methodical officer. Yes, he is still deep in grief and is getting rid of reminders, but he seems to be able to have more than one thing going on in his mind at a time. He reminds me of Columbo - a seemingly awkward detective who doesn't seem to know what is going on, yet solves the crime by being methodical.

 

***************************

Yes, yes ... Columbo, great picture image. 

I miss watching his shows.  :smileywink:

Cora

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Coral50
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work


Superbookworm wrote:

Wow you guys are so way ahead of me.  I'm still trying to keep all the characters and names straight.


I have the same problem, I keep notes and page #'s. It helps a lot and takes more time; though

 as you move through the book it gets easier.

I believe the book is more enjoyable by 'close reading' it, and taking time with the discussion board.

I've had some surprise discussions that I didn't get reading but now wonder how I could have missed them.  :smileysurprised:

Cora

 

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Coral50
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work


clodia2 wrote:

literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


Good point.  And to follow-up on that thought, didn't Paula/Piet burn his clothes?  Whose shirt is it? 


That's what I was thinking????

Cora

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Coral50
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

[ Edited ]

high96 wrote:

 

 

I don't think you have missed anything. The shirt was in Piet's hands and then given to Wilson who then planted it for Grens' team to find. Possibly Piet could have put someone else's blood on it. More likely to me that Wilson added someone else's blood to it to either (a.) incriminate a random criminal or (b.) frame Piet into a larger crime so he would be in prison longer.

 

When he is updating Piet's background on the Aspen computer system, Wilson is thinking to himself on page 110 that "In two weeks' time, Piet would be given a long prison sentence and then take over enough power  to control the drug supply, the kind of force that was treated with respect inside."

 

This makes me suspect Wilson of making Piet into a hardened criminal to gain this respect. Busting him for a 2 to 3 month sentence for a drug infraction, which is what Piet thinks is going to happen, doesn't equal a long prison sentence or a force treated with respect to me. 

 


The harden criminal, yes, but the blood on the shirt has be confused a bit.

Cora

 

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Darbys_Closet
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Interesting note ...I just found out that Ewert Grens and Sven Sundqvist work together in other books by these authors. 

FYI!

Darby

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elaine_hf
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


Coral50 wrote:

clodia2 wrote:

literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


Good point.  And to follow-up on that thought, didn't Paula/Piet burn his clothes?  Whose shirt is it? 


That's what I was thinking????

Cora


Piet collected everyone's clothes under the premise he was going to burn them. However, he held back Mariusz's shirt, obviously as 'insurance'. At the bottom of page 38 is a discussion of how Piet is standing naked in front of a fire, with a pile of Jerzy's and Mariusz's clothes to burn. Never having killed someone, I am also a little unsure of how the small bloodstains got onto the shirt, but I would guess in all of the scuffling it is quite possible that Mariusz had a small cut that he may not have even noticed.

 

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MomOf2Turds
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 

BookWoman718 wrote:

AIRKNITTER wrote:

Wonder if the fact that the Danish CHIS was a police officer whereas Paula was a criminal and used to lying is why the poor CHIS was murdered.


I hadn't thought of it that way, but several times in the book characters say words to the effect that 'only a criminal can act like a criminal.'  Or 'only a criminal can talk like a criminal'  so his death sort of proves that point.   I just took it on face value that he wasn't trained as well as he should have been.  We do have undercover police in this country who stay under for months and sometimes years, so I think their skills at lying - or portraying themselves as something they are not - must be pretty well honed. 


Jens Christian Toft, aka Carsten, who is the murder victim, is NOT a police officer, merely an infiltrator like Piet.  On page 91 it says, "Convicted of aggravated assault, perjury and extortion and had served two years in D Block at Vestre Prison in Copenhagen when he was reurited by us.  In mush the same way that you do.  Sometimes we even recruit them when they're on remand."  And it goes on to say how they trained him and gave him a background story and such.  He was NOT a police officer.  He was just an informer, an infiltrator, an agent of the police force acting on their behalf.

 

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bmseara
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

We know the murder victim had a terrible cover story that was easy to break; and we have learned the importance of a good cover story for informants and obviously this is a good example of why a solid cover story is essential. 

 

Grens vs. Wilson-

Grens will not give up; it seems apparent that he is the type of dective that has devoted his life to his profession and he won't rest until he has the answers.  It warms my heart a litte knowing that there are police officers out there like that though - since they get the job done. 

Wilson is a good cop also; he just has a different angle here.  His first priority is to protect his infiltrator and stop Grens from being able to place him at the crime scene.  I'm not sure I like Wilson as a person; I think he may have a "dirty" cop side to him as well.  We shall see - I just don't trust him fully.  I'm pretty sure he is going to mess the whole thing up...

 

I think there is an increase in CHIS because there is an increase in crime and an increase in needing to catch criminals.  You need a criminal to think like a criminal; they are the best at it.  It is the same as having a reformed drug addict be a rehab counselor - it just makes sense to them.  They understand the game, how it works, and who the players are. 

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dhaupt
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


Darbys_Closet wrote:

Interesting note ...I just found out that Ewert Grens and Sven Sundqvist work together in other books by these authors. 

FYI!

Darby


Thanks Darby

 

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Peppermill
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 


elaine_hf wrote:

 


Coral50 wrote:

clodia2 wrote:

literature wrote:

Mariusz kills the infiltrator with a shot to the temple.  There is no mention of anyone else getting hurt or bleeding at the crime scene.  The investigators find a shirt in the garbage bin near the scene of the crime, covered in blood and gunshot residue.  On page 121, Krantz explains to Grens about the smaller spots of blood found on the shirt, they've been analyzed and belong to someone else, possibly the murderer, but definitely not the victim.  I'm throwing this out to everyone because I feel like I've missed something. 


Good point.  And to follow-up on that thought, didn't Paula/Piet burn his clothes?  Whose shirt is it? 


That's what I was thinking????

Cora


Piet collected everyone's clothes under the premise he was going to burn them. However, he held back Mariusz's shirt, obviously as 'insurance'. At the bottom of page 38 is a discussion of how Piet is standing naked in front of a fire, with a pile of Jerzy's and Mariusz's clothes to burn. Never having killed someone, I am also a little unsure of how the small bloodstains got onto the shirt, but I would guess in all of the scuffling it is quite possible that Mariusz had a small cut that he may not have even noticed.

 


One of the possibilities that occurred to me could be that the clothes of many could easily have blood traces from their owner -- shaving, a broken pimple or zit, a cut, ....  But the text gives us no clues, at least that I read and recognized, that could give us a heads up on what the forensic guys hypothesize.

 

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

 

When you think about it, it would really be a goodway to rehab a criminal, pulling him into the justice system, but instead, they put them at great risk and perhaps risk making them even more angry and frustrated with society by putting him in a postion to do even worse bad things.
Do you think it would be better if they picked their brains for the info, instead of their criminal skills? We train our soldiers to try and infiltrate the camps of our enemies...why not criminal camps as well? Why does it have to be the criminal that is encouraged to be even more of a criminal again, only placed under the umbrella of a legal system that abandons him if he is discovered? It seems like a contradiction of terms.
bmseara wrote:
edited by twj....
I think there is an increase in CHIS because there is an increase in crime and an increase in needing to catch criminals.  You need a criminal to think like a criminal; they are the best at it.  It is the same as having a reformed drug addict be a rehab counselor - it just makes sense to them. They understand the game, how it works, and who the players are.

 

 

 

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bmseara
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I see your point, but I think the criminal world is something non-criminals don't understand.  I am not sure a dangerous criminal would just let the police pick thier brain with nothing in return.  I think being an infiltratior allows them to get the rush they miss and allows them to justify breaking the law.  Remember Piet talks quite a bit about how things are rationalized.  In this part of the book we learned that he can still deal in the dirty side and the police will turn a blind eye or set it up - I assume that in his mind that because he is working with the police to take down the Polish Mafia this makes his illegal dealings "ok".  Do you not agree? 

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bmseara
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

Unless I am mistaken I thought Erik Wilson let someone and I can't remember who know that the blood was a type of animal or something.  I can't remember where I read that, but I know it was close to the beginning of Part Two. 

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MBSpencer
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

For want of a nook the ability to search is lost.  I remember something similar as welll...and the search is on.

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thewanderingjew
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I do agree with you. I hadn't thought about the rush he would get from actually doing criminal activities under the auspices of the police.

 

He still remains an engima to me. Where did he learn to guage distance and speed of bullets? I keep wondering who is he really? Does he have a third persona we have not yet met? He constantly surprises me with his capability to protect himself and anticipate the danger.

 

 


bmseara wrote:

I see your point, but I think the criminal world is something non-criminals don't understand.  I am not sure a dangerous criminal would just let the police pick thier brain with nothing in return.  I think being an infiltratior allows them to get the rush they miss and allows them to justify breaking the law.  Remember Piet talks quite a bit about how things are rationalized.  In this part of the book we learned that he can still deal in the dirty side and the police will turn a blind eye or set it up - I assume that in his mind that because he is working with the police to take down the Polish Mafia this makes his illegal dealings "ok".  Do you not agree? 


 

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JaneM
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Re: Three Seconds: Police Work

I agree with your bold comment, TWJ.  What don't we know yet about Piet?  If he can calculate the speed of a bullet and is able to do the complex planning being set up in Section 2, then he has many skiils not yet evident to us.  Cunning, resourceful -- sounds like something out of the James Bond,  Bourne or Mission Impossible movies.  And if he's that good, we could wonder why he ever got caught and imprisoned the first time.  Or maybe he has learned all these skills over the last 9 years!


thewanderingjew wrote:

I do agree with you. I hadn't thought about the rush he would get from actually doing criminal activities under the auspices of the police.

 

He still remains an engima to me. Where did he learn to guage distance and speed of bullets? I keep wondering who is he really? Does he have a third persona we have not yet met? He constantly surprises me with his capability to protect himself and anticipate the danger.

 

 


bmseara wrote:

I see your point, but I think the criminal world is something non-criminals don't understand.  I am not sure a dangerous criminal would just let the police pick thier brain with nothing in return.  I think being an infiltratior allows them to get the rush they miss and allows them to justify breaking the law.  Remember Piet talks quite a bit about how things are rationalized.  In this part of the book we learned that he can still deal in the dirty side and the police will turn a blind eye or set it up - I assume that in his mind that because he is working with the police to take down the Polish Mafia this makes his illegal dealings "ok".  Do you not agree? 


 


 

Jane M.