Later Chapters and Whole Novel: Winter and Spring

[scnole]

This was one of the most sad, heartbreaking story I have ever read.  

Theodore couldn't face going back to prison - and also could not face what his sister, Anna, had become.   I think he totally "snapped" and ended both Anna and his life.

When I was reading the passage about the policeman coming to Thedor's house while he and Maria were away at a party, I thought they would have compassion after seeing those poor malnourished children.   But that didn't happen - to me that was so cruel for them to look at those children and still tell them to let Theodor know he would be going back to prison.    

I believe the land office though Anna and Thedor would work out their dispute but of course this never 

happened.   In the end, they all lost. 

[aprilh]

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ethel55 wrote:

With all the death at the end, I don't know if I thought it just that Stefan got to just run off...

We had been seeing cracks in Anna's mind since the beginning of the story, her affinity for the wolves was worrying, but I sure didn't see that coming.

I think with Myron's help, the family will be able to resettle and perhaps farm again.

Message Edited by ethel55 on 08-17-2009 06:04 PM

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I agree. Stefan shouldn't have been left unharmed. In my opinion, he was the one who started this whole mess. He raped and abused his wife to the point where she was only a shell of her former self. She could barely function on her own let alone take care of her children. Stefan also started the feud between Anna and Teodor over the land, making her sign letters saying she never agreed to let Teodor stay on the land. Then one night he just up and leaves. Granted I'm glad he was out of the picture, but having nothing happen to him just doesn't seem fair after we learn what happens to the baby, Anna and Teodor.

[CathyB]

In this heartbreaking chapter, we see, first Mysha, then Anna, then Theo break down and kill. Can you talk about what has driven each of them to do it? How is it possible that they are each capable of it? Are they each aware of what they are doing?

I think that Leysa, Anna and Teo each made a choice to kill. Were they driven to it - no, absolutely not.

Nobody held Leysa's hand when she cut of the chickens head. Nobody ushered Anna out the door to deposit her child as an offering for the coyotes. Nobody but Teo pulled the trigger - first for Anna and the for himself.

Everyone is capable of killing whether or not they want to believe it. Who amongst us hasn't killed a bug? In some, the struggle to control those baser instincts is lost. In others, it is a difficult struggle that is repeatedly fought. Still, in those that remain, the struggle is never presented - they are the fortunate who are never faced with such a dilemma.

I think that they are all aware of what they were doing.

Has your impression or judgment of Theo changed entirely?

Yes, I believe that he was weak. If he was not, he would not have killed himself. He gave no thought to leaving his children or wife.

Do you feel you have any sense for the possible outcome of any of the surviving characters? Is there anyone you might make a prediction for?

I think that Maria and her children will do fine. They will persevere and make a decent life for themselves. I think that Petro will grow more bitter and become more like his father. I had a creepy feeling about leaving Leysa with the pastor.

What is this new Spring like for Maria's family?

Spring brings a new baby and a new beginning.

[emmagrace]

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 ethel55 wrote:

With all the death at the end, I don't know if I thought it just that Stefan got to just run off...

We had been seeing cracks in Anna's mind since the beginning of the story, her affinity for the wolves was worrying, but I sure didn't see that coming.

I think with Myron's help, the family will be able to resettle and perhaps farm again.

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I agree on all points!

I was hoping to see Stefan get what was coming to him and I never imagined that Anna would kill her child!

Myron seems like a responsible young man and I think that he will play an important role in the future of his family!

[JoyZ]

I see the new spring as new hope for Maria and her family.  They are entering into a new unbroken sky, a fresh beginning, and although it will require a lot of hard work she has Myron and the other kids with her.  Their seedlings bring fresh promise in this new adventure.  There is no time to grieve. 

I was shocked and disappointed in Teodor, but when confronted with returning to jail and being a disappointment to his family, he must have felt so overwhelmed.  He must have felt his family would survive again like they had when he was in jail, and without the burden of providing for Anna.

I think too, like others have mentioned, their need for control.  That these killings were a way to control the situations.  They didn't have control over much in their lives.  The law, the fire, the dust storms, and even Stephan all had control.  It was very telling when Shandi Mitchell describes Myron's ritual of putting on his clothing.  Maybe this murder/suicide was the only thing Teodor felt he was in control.

[libralady]

I think Maria and her family will find a way to survive.  I thought from the very beginning that Maria was the strong one in the family.  She managed to pull the family together and keep moving forward no matter the circumstances.  Maria will hold them together and they will support each other.  Lesya and Petro will not fair as well, I don't think.  After all that her family had endured, Maria still found compassion for Petro and Lesya and tried to ensure that wherever they went, they would be together.  It seems that she had far more compassion than the people in the town. 

I was totally unprepared for the ending.  However, after reading it, I can see how Teodor felt that he had no other choice but to take his own life.  He felt that his sister had betrayed him in the worst way and she had become someone who he no longer knew.  I think he killed her in a fit of rage and after he did, he knew he could no longer live himself.  How could he face his wife, his children?  His niece?  His nephew?  He thought he was doing what was best for his wife and his children.  He may have even considered himself a failure.  He brought his family to this strange land hoping to make life better for them, but he was never able to make this dream come true.  He may have felt that there was not more he could do for his family,especially if he had to go back to prison. Teodor found his freedom, just in a different way.  It was a very sad ending and definitely one that will stay with you. 

[KathyS]

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JaneM wrote:

I have been viewing this book as a classic tragedy from the first page on.  The story races to what seems to be a foregone conclusion that death will occur.  The nature of the deaths, the heartwrenching situations that each character finds himself or herself in, and their beliefs that no other option is possible makes us, the readers, tremble with anger, sadness and frustration.  Why couldn't it have been different?  Why couldn't Teodor have the courage to face one more year?  Why didn't Anna die during childbirth, leaving a healthy baby and possibly a while different outcome to the story?

But no, that is not their story.  It may be the one we wish we were reading, but it is not the story that Shandi presents to us.  Instead she spends 343 brilliant pages slowly building the case for the inevitability of the tragedy that we witness.

Of the 4 deaths, it is Leyna's killing of Happiness that upsets me the most.  She is a child who has been abused her entire life, finally finding a kindred spirit in a chicken also with a damaged foot, but a strong sense of survival.  Her reaction to the betrayal of the chicken that pecks into the eggs and destroys their food, is a passage from childhood and innocence to maturity and pessimism.  She will never regain her happiness, and will live the rest of her life in subservience to others, feeling a sense inadequacy and pain that extends beyond her crippled foot. 

Anna's baby literally never had a chance.  Conceived by rape, hated by her mother who did everything to destroy it before the birth, and ultimately killed (or sacrificed?) by that same mother who saw death as a better option than life.  And based on Anna's life, we can understand her viewpoint even while we don't condone her action.

Teodor, like Leyna, sees betrayal as sufficient cause for death.  He believes Anna has turned him into the police,  and when he combines that with his on-going anger at her for signing Stefan's letters, and her weakness at taking him back, he feels she has stolen from him the only thing he had a chance for - his land, the right to work it and provide for his family.  And for this, she must die.  Again, we can understand his viewpoint - as we have seen all along that he is a proud and righteous man - and that this will be his undoing. 

The other great tragedy is the way Petro has become his father - finding pleasure in the power demonstrated by his father in hitting women, and ultimately betraying his uncle by turning him into the police and setting off the final chain of events.  He will continue to justify his actions as Stefan did - recreating the memories until he believes he was only doing what was necessary, while building castles in the air of possibilities.  And I fear that unless something dramatic happens during his time with Josyp Petrenko that he will be the bad seed.

While this was not a happy story, it was beautifully written and will probably become a classic.  I thought Shandi might have named it Under This Unforgiving Sky.  The only constant in this story is nature, including the coyotes.  Nature has no hidden agenda, no promises, no loyalties, no greed - it simply is -- with all its power, beauty, darkness and disregard for the petty ambitions of humans. 

I am glad we are left with the hope for a new future for the survivors.  Maria will lead her children to safety and prosperity in a new place.

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Jane, again, more well voiced thoughts. I too felt strongly when Lesya killed her chicken.  I literally gasped.  But I'm not convinced that it indicates:

"She will never regain her happiness, and will live the rest of her life in subservience to others, feeling a sense inadequacy and pain that extends beyond her crippled foot."

I felt she had to take this anger, and hatred she bottled up, out on something....it was wrong, but I felt it was done out of retaliation. The weakest thing she could fight....as you say, she was also treated badly, and looked down upon by her parents.  But she knew her aunt and uncle had loved her. 

I am in hopes that this pastor will teach her what her mother, and aunt, couldn't.  To have faith in the future, through the love of God.  It upset me that Maria wasn't able to take Petro and Lesya with her.  Two more mouths to feed, was two too many, I guess.  And, hopefully, without Stefan's influence, Petro will learn only good things from his new caregiver.  He's young, and he did understand, at one time, right from wrong....it's not impossible to regain that.  Let's hope he has a good image to emulate.  I'm sure these children will hear all kinds of rumors, and stories, but let's hope they saw the truth in their lives, and remember the good things, and not the bad.  These two kids, I worry about the most.  It was heartbreaking, for me, to see them separate from Maria.  Their only loved ones have gone away.  This made me cry.

[Rachel-K]

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dhaupt wrote:

what if Teodor would have taken the moonshine to the party

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Sorry to clip such a small detail from your lovely post, but this "what if" really got me! I had forgotten that Theo had joked about it so briefly before they left--now this one will haunt me, too.

[Rachel-K]

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Stefan was right in one thing. Leaving was the best thing he could ever do. 

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Yes,  that's a question I've had for the group, too. Was stealing the family's money and bolting without a goodbye the best thing Stefan did in this whole novel?

[JaneM]

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rkubie wrote:

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Stefan was right in one thing. Leaving was the best thing he could ever do. 

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Yes,  that's a question I've had for the group, too. Was stealing the family's money and bolting without a goodbye the best thing Stefan did in this whole novel?

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It was the best thing he did because he walked away from incest and molesting his own daughter.  The consequences of that action would have been worse than stealing and leaving which he had done many times before.

Jane M.

[Sunltcloud]

The way I understood it, she suffocated the baby first. I'm not sure I got it right, though.

Anna is crazed, sees a rabbit with a child's face. She nurses it, tells it that it isn't safe here, that it shouldn't have come. When she pulls the "fur skin" over the top of its head, I assume that it can no longer breathe.

I also wonder if there is a connection to Teodor's shedding of the "unfamiliar skin stinking of sweat and fear." (page 333) Does death bring all creatures to the same level? No longer separated by group, by skin, by fur, by clothing? Naked all! 

Page 299. Anna and the baby.

"How will you survive?" she asks the strange, magical creature. And she knows that something this beautiful cannot survive.

Its tiny fingers knead her breast. Anna pulls the fur skin over the top of its head. The baby squirms and mews.

"Shhh," Anna coos.
"I'll take you home."

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nfam wrote in part, about Anna: 

She was crazy enough to leave a perfectly healthy baby for the coyotes to devour. I must say, it rather turned my stomach.

[JaneM]

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KathyS wrote:

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JaneM wrote:

Of the 4 deaths, it is Leyna's killing of Happiness that upsets me the most.  She is a child who has been abused her entire life, finally finding a kindred spirit in a chicken also with a damaged foot, but a strong sense of survival.  Her reaction to the betrayal of the chicken that pecks into the eggs and destroys their food, is a passage from childhood and innocence to maturity and pessimism.  She will never regain her happiness, and will live the rest of her life in subservience to others, feeling a sense inadequacy and pain that extends beyond her crippled foot. 

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Jane, again, more well voiced thoughts. I too felt strongly when Lesya killed her chicken.  I literally gasped.  But I'm not convinced that it indicates:

"She will never regain her happiness, and will live the rest of her life in subservience to others, feeling a sense inadequacy and pain that extends beyond her crippled foot."

I felt she had to take this anger, and hatred she bottled up, out on something....it was wrong, but I felt it was done out of retaliation. The weakest thing she could fight....as you say, she was also treated badly, and looked down upon by her parents.  But she knew her aunt and uncle had loved her. 

I am in hopes that this pastor will teach her what her mother, and aunt, couldn't.  To have faith in the future, through the love of God.  It upset me that Maria wasn't able to take Petro and Lesya with her.  Two more mouths to feed, was two too many, I guess.  And, hopefully, without Stefan's influence, Petro will learn only good things from his new caregiver.  He's young, and he did understand, at one time, right from wrong....it's not impossible to regain that.  Let's hope he has a good image to emulate.  I'm sure these children will hear all kinds of rumors, and stories, but let's hope they saw the truth in their lives, and remember the good things, and not the bad.  These two kids, I worry about the most.  It was heartbreaking, for me, to see them separate from Maria.  Their only loved ones have gone away.  This made me cry.

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Thanks KathyS.  I envy your hopeful outlook for Anna and Stefan's children.  I'm afraid that the damage done to them at this point is irreversable, but I'm going to try to change my perspective because I would prefer to see a sunnier outlook for their future!

Jane M.

[aprilh]

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Sunltcloud wrote:

The way I understood it, she suffocated the baby first. I'm not sure I got it right, though.

Anna is crazed, sees a rabbit with a child's face. She nurses it, tells it that it isn't safe here, that it shouldn't have come. When she pulls the "fur skin" over the top of its head, I assume that it can no longer breathe.

I also wonder if there is a connection to Teodor's shedding of the "unfamiliar skin stinking of sweat and fear." (page 333) Does death bring all creatures to the same level? No longer separated by group, by skin, by fur, by clothing? Naked all! 

Page 299. Anna and the baby.

"How will you survive?" she asks the strange, magical creature. And she knows that something this beautiful cannot survive.

Its tiny fingers knead her breast. Anna pulls the fur skin over the top of its head. The baby squirms and mews.

"Shhh," Anna coos.
"I'll take you home."

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nfam wrote in part, about Anna: 

She was crazy enough to leave a perfectly healthy baby for the coyotes to devour. I must say, it rather turned my stomach.

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I assumed the baby was still alive because on pages 301-302, Maria is awake because she has a bad feeling but doesn't know why. She hears a sound outside and wakes Teodor up. She shakes him awake, "I hear a rabbit crying." My thought was the rabbit she heard crying was the baby, because later when Teodor investigates he doesn't find any sign of a rabbit, but he sees the coyotes with Anna's baby.

[Sunltcloud]

I assumed that the land went back to the Canadian government, since Maria couldn't claim it and Anna was dead. On top of that, the requirements of the homesteading act were not fulfilled.

As for Stefan? I don't see it as a loose end that Stefan just drops out of the picture. That was his character all along - dropout! To let him disappear into thin air seems right.

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meme1 wrote in part:

I felt that there were some loose ends - Stefan's return?  what happens to the land?  Or did I miss some details?

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[pen21]

Well written post. I had to take some time to think about your response.

Your thoughts on Teodor are so true. I wonder why Teodor risked so much for alcohol. If he wanted not to return to prison and wanted to be with his family.

I think that Maria and her children will have a hard life ahead. I just didn't seem as hopeful about them as so many of the posts I have read. Their fathers suicide and that he had killed his sister will definitely impact the children.

I too have trouble with Anna and her newborn child. The story did portray her as a very disturbed woman. I have trouble with this part of the story.

I come out of this with a very pessimistic view of all of the characters and their future.

I did think it was a good book. But it does leave me troubled.

Dstaff your post, gave me more to think about.

pen21

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DSaff wrote:

Well, I wasn't happy with the ending and could have done without all of the graphic violence, but I will try to make sense of what I am feeling as I answer these questions.

First, I will say that I still love Teodore. What he did was wrong on so many levels. The man was broken, probably more broken than any of us thought at first. Prison had changed him and I think he worked at getting his life back, but....  He couldn't get past his sister giving her baby to the wolves, and he couldn't get past thinking she was sending him back to jail. For what? A tiny bit of home-made brew that was for him to enjoy. Who knows what he would have done if he knew it was Petro? I don't think he would have killed him though. Something broke in him when he saw how easily his sister could kill her baby. I thought he was going to kill her right then, and he might have if the kids weren't there. Sadly, his family suffers the consequences. Lesya and Petro are sent to different places to live, and his children lost their father. Maria was tasked with bringing a new baby into the world and with taking her family to a new place to begin again. Pride can be both good and bad and I think we see both in Teodore and Maria.

The land dispute was interesting. It seemed like they were letting both parties know what was going on so that some resolution could happen. Something told me they didn't trust Stefan and that they hoped that blood ties would solve the dispute. Another wrong move!

I'm sure others will disagree with me, but I can't fathom how Anna could do what she did to her daughter. Yes, I know she was abused. She didn't want the baby. She felt a connection to the wolves that Stefan endangered. But, this precious baby. No excuse. I think it was murder and felt Teodore's rage with him. Amazing that Anna must have felt something after because while she kept saying that the baby had died before she was born (metaphorically), she wouldn't clean the box the baby had slept in. This part of the book made me cry and made me angry. 

I honestly felt no hope for Maria and her children as they left. She had no one to help her. Yes, she is a strong woman and probably made it with the help of her children, but without any real claim to land or family, what could she do? The only hope is the seed and the dirt that are taken along as they leave.

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[Sunltcloud]

IMHO. Life isn't fair. And the job of the writer of a novel is not, to create happy endings, but to distill the essence of reality into a work of art. Mission accomplished.

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aprilh wrote:

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ethel55 wrote:

With all the death at the end, I don't know if I thought it just that Stefan got to just run off...

We had been seeing cracks in Anna's mind since the beginning of the story, her affinity for the wolves was worrying, but I sure didn't see that coming.

I think with Myron's help, the family will be able to resettle and perhaps farm again.

Message Edited by ethel55 on 08-17-2009 06:04 PM

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I agree. Stefan shouldn't have been left unharmed. In my opinion, he was the one who started this whole mess. He raped and abused his wife to the point where she was only a shell of her former self. She could barely function on her own let alone take care of her children. Stefan also started the feud between Anna and Teodor over the land, making her sign letters saying she never agreed to let Teodor stay on the land. Then one night he just up and leaves. Granted I'm glad he was out of the picture, but having nothing happen to him just doesn't seem fair after we learn what happens to the baby, Anna and Teodor.

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[Sunltcloud]

Thanks aprilh, I think you're right. I missed that detail. What a horrible thing to do. And how sad. I wonder if Anna sees herself (in her mental state) as one of the coyotes?

There are few things I don't try to imagine when I am reading. Sexual abuse of a child and mutilation of a child are two that I put out of my mind as soon as I have read about them. And still, they haunt me, once I'm finished with a book.

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aprilh wrote:

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Sunltcloud wrote:

The way I understood it, she suffocated the baby first. I'm not sure I got it right, though.

Anna is crazed, sees a rabbit with a child's face. She nurses it, tells it that it isn't safe here, that it shouldn't have come. When she pulls the "fur skin" over the top of its head, I assume that it can no longer breathe.

I also wonder if there is a connection to Teodor's shedding of the "unfamiliar skin stinking of sweat and fear." (page 333) Does death bring all creatures to the same level? No longer separated by group, by skin, by fur, by clothing? Naked all! 

Page 299. Anna and the baby.

"How will you survive?" she asks the strange, magical creature. And she knows that something this beautiful cannot survive.

Its tiny fingers knead her breast. Anna pulls the fur skin over the top of its head. The baby squirms and mews.

"Shhh," Anna coos.
"I'll take you home."

---

nfam wrote in part, about Anna: 

She was crazy enough to leave a perfectly healthy baby for the coyotes to devour. I must say, it rather turned my stomach.

---

I assumed the baby was still alive because on pages 301-302, Maria is awake because she has a bad feeling but doesn't know why. She hears a sound outside and wakes Teodor up. She shakes him awake, "I hear a rabbit crying." My thought was the rabbit she heard crying was the baby, because later when Teodor investigates he doesn't find any sign of a rabbit, but he sees the coyotes with Anna's baby.

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[jabrkeKB]

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DSaff wrote:

I have had a hard time picking up other books since finishing this one. It left me so sad and angry that nothing seemed to fit. But, I just finished Natural Born Charmer and am starting The Help. whew!

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I read The Help with my neighborhood book club and we all agreed it was one of the best books we had read.

[DSaff]

Thanks for the positive comment. I can't wait to get further into it.

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jabrkeKB wrote:

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DSaff wrote:

I have had a hard time picking up other books since finishing this one. It left me so sad and angry that nothing seemed to fit. But, I just finished Natural Born Charmer and am starting The Help. whew!

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I read The Help with my neighborhood book club and we all agreed it was one of the best books we had read.

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[DSaff]

That is a tough question to answer, but being the louse that he is, leaving was the best outcome. It is tough to know he is out there roaming around and can pop back into their lives, however. That part is disquieting!

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rkubie wrote:

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Yes,  that's a question I've had for the group, too. Was stealing the family's money and bolting without a goodbye the best thing Stefan did in this whole novel?

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