Later Chapters and Whole Novel: Winter and Spring

[DSaff]

Thanks, pen21. I have struggled with discussing the end of the book and have tried to put my thoughts into coherent form. It seems to be the case with many of us.

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pen21 wrote:

Well written post. I had to take some time to think about your response.

Your thoughts on Teodor are so true. I wonder why Teodor risked so much for alcohol. If he wanted not to return to prison and wanted to be with his family.

I think that Maria and her children will have a hard life ahead. I just didn't seem as hopeful about them as so many of the posts I have read. Their fathers suicide and that he had killed his sister will definitely impact the children.

I too have trouble with Anna and her newborn child. The story did portray her as a very disturbed woman. I have trouble with this part of the story.

I come out of this with a very pessimistic view of all of the characters and their future.

I did think it was a good book. But it does leave me troubled.

Dstaff your post, gave me more to think about.

pen21

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DSaff wrote:

Well, I wasn't happy with the ending and could have done without all of the graphic violence, but I will try to make sense of what I am feeling as I answer these questions.

First, I will say that I still love Teodore. What he did was wrong on so many levels. The man was broken, probably more broken than any of us thought at first. Prison had changed him and I think he worked at getting his life back, but....  He couldn't get past his sister giving her baby to the wolves, and he couldn't get past thinking she was sending him back to jail. For what? A tiny bit of home-made brew that was for him to enjoy. Who knows what he would have done if he knew it was Petro? I don't think he would have killed him though. Something broke in him when he saw how easily his sister could kill her baby. I thought he was going to kill her right then, and he might have if the kids weren't there. Sadly, his family suffers the consequences. Lesya and Petro are sent to different places to live, and his children lost their father. Maria was tasked with bringing a new baby into the world and with taking her family to a new place to begin again. Pride can be both good and bad and I think we see both in Teodore and Maria.

The land dispute was interesting. It seemed like they were letting both parties know what was going on so that some resolution could happen. Something told me they didn't trust Stefan and that they hoped that blood ties would solve the dispute. Another wrong move!

I'm sure others will disagree with me, but I can't fathom how Anna could do what she did to her daughter. Yes, I know she was abused. She didn't want the baby. She felt a connection to the wolves that Stefan endangered. But, this precious baby. No excuse. I think it was murder and felt Teodore's rage with him. Amazing that Anna must have felt something after because while she kept saying that the baby had died before she was born (metaphorically), she wouldn't clean the box the baby had slept in. This part of the book made me cry and made me angry. 

I honestly felt no hope for Maria and her children as they left. She had no one to help her. Yes, she is a strong woman and probably made it with the help of her children, but without any real claim to land or family, what could she do? The only hope is the seed and the dirt that are taken along as they leave.

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[maude40]

I don't think I have ever read such an emotionally charged book before. You feel such empathy for the characters, all except Stefan who I wanted to kill myself. Tha Alberta praries and the weather were as much characters as any of the people in this story. I was gratful for where I live and the conveniences of our time after I finished reading. I thoroughly enjoyed the emotional rollercoaster Ms Mitchell took us on. The nature descriptions alone were wonderful. Yvonne

[maude40]

Isn't it amazing that after Stefan lays waste to everyone he touches, that the total destruction of the families takes place after he has left . It's a shame that Teodor couldn.t have pulled the trigger on Stefan as he did on Anna. Obviously seeing the baby with the coyotes pushed him over the edge. I didn't see that ending coming. I wanted to believe that Stefan would get his due in the end. Yvonne

[maude40]

I think the most tragic character of the book was Lesya. She was so kind and sweet and hard working and helpful and Stefan even led her to kill. When she killed her chicken, Happiness, I just wanted to scream. That was the saddest part of the book for me. Stefan ruined everyone but especially his children. I'm afraid Petro will turn out like his father as he was already displying traits along those lines. Yvonne

[kpatton]

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Require wrote:

We've talked quite a bit about animals-In what ways have the coyotes been characters in the novel?

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I liked how animals were a part of this story.  The horse and how he would anticipate Teodor's visit each morning and how Teodor would try to sneak up on him as if they were playing a game.  I appreciated how difficult it was for Myron to trap rabbits.  He knew that they needed the rabbits for food but he didn't like the idea that they might suffer.  It seemed like most of the characters (pehaps not Maria, Sophia, Katya or Dania) had a connection in some way with an animal.  My first thought is how could you not have a connection.  You are out on the plains with very few people around.  I would think that most would have a feeling and respect for the land and all that surrounds them, including the animals.  Animals would be either there for work to help you survive, be a possible food source for survival, or be predators that are surviving right alongside of you.

I truly felt like the coyotes were so much a part of the story.  I was surprised when the coyotes began to mean something to people other than Anna.  The female coyote seemed to be a survivor just like Maria was going to be a survivor.  The coyote was missing one leg and Maria was missing her husband, but both continued on.

I have to stop here and once again say what a phenomenal book I thought this was.

Kathy

[kpatton]

While reading some of the responses in this thread, I have two questions for the group.

Could Lesya's killing of Happiness be metaphorical for her inability to do anything to her mother?  Anna was someone who didn't want either or her children, Happiness wouldn't lay eggs.  Does Lesya know that Anna has tried to kill her unborn child as Happiness breaks the eggs of the other chickens?  The fact that Lesya killed Happiness and then didn't use the chicken for food had to mean something more than just being practical that she had a chicken that didn't lay and was breaking eggs.

Second question.  I was surprised and saddened that Maria didn't take Lesya and Petra into her family.  After all of the time the past two years while Teodor was in prison that she cared for them as if they were her own, and now she abandoned them.  Was anyone else surprised about this?

Kathy

[Lil_Irish_Lass]

I think the ending was perfect for the story that was being told and the life it was about. There were no happy endings for the families who emigrated to the US/Canada in hopes of a better life. I'm honestly shocked that more characters didn't die.

Teo had no other choice, and I'm glad that he took action (even if it was misdirected) rather than just dying inside and continuing to move on.

I understand WHY Petro did what he did but I'm not ashamed to admit that I was hoping it would be that little bugger who caught the bullet. Sure he had the horrible father who he stupidly looked up to like any young child will to their parents regardless of if they deserve it or not but I truly believe that Petro knew full well what he was doing and the consequences of his actions (Teo going back to jail and his Aunt left alone to try and keep his cousins alive on their own with no farm and no money). He gave up Teo out of pure spite and it shows that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and he's a little Stefan through and through (he even commented on how enjoyable it was to hit Leysa and feel the sensation of his fist making contact with flesh.

I wish we knew what happened to everyone... did they do ok, did Leysa make it?

[dhaupt]

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kpatton wrote:

While reading some of the responses in this thread, I have two questions for the group.

Could Lesya's killing of Happiness be metaphorical for her inability to do anything to her mother?  Anna was someone who didn't want either or her children, Happiness wouldn't lay eggs.  Does Lesya know that Anna has tried to kill her unborn child as Happiness breaks the eggs of the other chickens?  The fact that Lesya killed Happiness and then didn't use the chicken for food had to mean something more than just being practical that she had a chicken that didn't lay and was breaking eggs.

Second question.  I was surprised and saddened that Maria didn't take Lesya and Petra into her family.  After all of the time the past two years while Teodor was in prison that she cared for them as if they were her own, and now she abandoned them.  Was anyone else surprised about this?

Kathy

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Hi Kathy,

I don't know about the chicken egg question. But I did wonder why Maria didn't take in the children, maybe because they weren't really orphaned because Stefan is still around somewhere. Maybe she either didn't want to deal with him if he returned or I don't know. But yes I did wonder too. 

[kpatton]

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dhaupt wrote:

Well I can say that the ending was totally surprising to me. Now to discuss it.

My impression of the letters between all the parties during the land squabble that in the end I still don't know how it would have turned out, but by the letters I think they tended to believe Teodor over Anna/Stefan. In the end though by the law Teodor wasn't allowed to own land as a ex-con, so I don't know.

The killing of Happiness showed me more of Leysa's strength, she loves this bird takes care of it and it betrays her by not only not doing it's job of laying eggs, but also by taking food out of the very mouths that feed it by breaking the other hen's eggs. So even though she loved the bird she knew that her duty was to her self and her family and Happiness had to go.

Anna's murder of her baby really horrified me, even though I wasn't surprised by her action, what did surprise me was how she acted after, by cleaning herself and the house and everything. I wondered was she finally cleaning Stefan out of her life, but she still had his other children, so would they have been safe if she would have lived? And where did her insanity go, it seems she was the most lucid after the murder of the baby. But we also know from the past that Stefan would have probably made another appearance after his meager funds disappeared and he had no where else to go but home with his tail between his legs.

Teodor's killing of Anna was truly the most surprising events of the whole novel. I knew he would kill himself when he found out about the prison sentence he was facing because of his total loss of self from the first time, and by the way he said goodbye to his family that night. And I know he blamed Anna for that, but killing her, I just don't know what to think about it. I don't think it was premeditated, but I just don't know.

Did my opinion of him change, yes. I know he was a shell of his former self and if he had only ended his life I would still have thought him a hero of this story, but by taking some one else with him, that was unthinkable even if it was not planned. Yes it was the action of a desperate man, but a man who still could think on his own and knew the consequences would be devastating to everyone involved.

In the future I think Leysa and Maria and all of her children will come out of this. Leysa because she just does what ever is needed to go on. Maria and her family because she wouldn't have it any other way. I see Myron following in the footsteps of his father and grandfather and becoming a farmer. And the girls all becoming good wives and mothers, yes even our dreamer Sophia. Little Ivan will follow his brother and Maria will care for them all into her old age and wonder if it could have been different, "Under this Unbroken Sky".

The New spring will bring a new future for Maria and her brood, a future that may look grim, but with determination and fortitude she'll conquer as well, just not here and just not completely whole. Petro I'm not sure about, he is becoming his father's son and I worry about him. I hope that his guardian will raise him right and he will grow up to be a good man, but I worry about that.

The coyotes have been characters in survival during the worst of times, showing some of our human characters the strength of will and showing others that there is hope even in the face of dire diversity.

The novel as a whole reminds me to a larger scale of Romeo and Juliet, not in the content but the fact that timing is everything. What if, Ivan hadn't said that Petro stole his hat, what if Teodor would have taken the moonshine to the party, what if Petro hadn't told the police where to find the stash, what if Anna hadn't threatened Teodor after he found the baby. What if what if what if.

It was such a tragically touching encounter with life as most of us will never know, to be strangers in our own home, to not know the language, to be considered outsiders to the point of humiliation, to withstand the hardships of time and the force of nature. 

Message Edited by dhaupt on 08-17-2009 10:15 AM

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Debbie, I agree with your comment about timing.  I'm not sure I would have thought of that but it is so true.

Kathy

[Lil_Irish_Lass]

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kpatton wrote:

Second question.  I was surprised and saddened that Maria didn't take Lesya and Petra into her family.  After all of the time the past two years while Teodor was in prison that she cared for them as if they were her own, and now she abandoned them.  Was anyone else surprised about this?

Kathy

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While Maria is a pit bull when it comes to her family and keeping everyone alive I believe even she knows it's limits. She has six children of her own and now no land or husband, she knows she couldn't care for Petro and Lesya without depriving her own children and in the end the babies she gave birth to will always matter more than someone else's babies and I respect her for that.

If Maria could have kept the land it might have been a different story, she would have needed the children to help her till and keep a crop but without any home to call their own the less mouths to feed the greater their chances of survival.

[kpatton]

  This truly is a sad story.  No one wins or gets ahead in this one.

MG

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You are all going to see my conscious rambling as I have post after post in response to your many brilliant observations about this book.  I just can't help responding.

I agree that this was a sad story and that no one wins.  I think that Maria and her family survive.  I am not sure how Petro will turn out.  Here is a young boy with many adandonment issues.  My guess is that he may grow up to be abusive like his father.  I also worry about Lesya.  She may survive but in what way.  Will she ever find love and acceptance?

Kathy

[DSaff]

I agree that Lesya would have loved to do something to her mother, but as I said in my earlier post, think her killing of Happiness was all the rage she felt. Her mother was a big part of that - turning away from her because of her foot, making her do all the work, giving in to Stefan, ......

I wasn't really surprised that Maria didn't take in Lesya and Petro. She had enough children to raise, and there was no legal paperwork to give her custody or legal standing. But, the biggest reason I think she didn't try to take them was because of Stefan. Who knew when he might pop back into their lives? Maria didn't need that aggravation!

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kpatton wrote:

While reading some of the responses in this thread, I have two questions for the group.

Could Lesya's killing of Happiness be metaphorical for her inability to do anything to her mother?  Anna was someone who didn't want either or her children, Happiness wouldn't lay eggs.  Does Lesya know that Anna has tried to kill her unborn child as Happiness breaks the eggs of the other chickens?  The fact that Lesya killed Happiness and then didn't use the chicken for food had to mean something more than just being practical that she had a chicken that didn't lay and was breaking eggs.

Second question.  I was surprised and saddened that Maria didn't take Lesya and Petra into her family.  After all of the time the past two years while Teodor was in prison that she cared for them as if they were her own, and now she abandoned them.  Was anyone else surprised about this?

Kathy

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[ssizemore]

Debbie-

I must say that I have very little to add to your succinct discussion of the final chapters of the novel.  The conclusion was a total surprise to me, and very compelling.  I could not put the book down!  The story prepared us for what was going to happen, in that we knew it would probably bring tragedy.  The betrayal of the main characters by the system of government and the betrayal between family members probably could not have ended any other way.  I was surprised that Theo killed Anna, but I feel that he had really had all that he could take.  His prison experience was devastating to him.  He could not face going back to that or the reality that in that way he had let his family down.  I am sure he would have killed Stefan if he could have found him. The fact that Anna was willing to take her husband's side even though she knew he had gone was indeed an act of desperation.  Her murder of her child did make me wonder if she would kill herself and the other children.  Stefan's abandonment had truly finished her sanity!

I do think that Maria and her children would survive.  She had tremendous faith and had already prepared for the future by "stealing" the corn.  I was touched that she took care to place Anna's children.  I even wondered if she would take them with her.  Certainly the last chapter prepares us for the coming of Maria's spring and a new, though very difficult life.

I thoroughly enjoyed this novel and will certainly recommend it to others, including my book club.  It is very different from most novels out there right now and brings lots of new insight to the times and its characters. Congratulations to Ms. Mitchell for a stunning debut!

Sandy

[fordmg]

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emmagrace wrote:

My heart is broken for these characters! There are so many thing to talk about in this novel and I do not know where to start!

I really appreciated the explanation of the photograph at the end of this novel. It was a nice finish. The photo in the beginning is what hooked me and the explanation was what I needed in the end!

I am a little disappointed in Theo. I had the impression that he was so much stronger than suicide. Did he think that he was doing the right thing for his family? I don't get it! I still really like his character however. I guess that everyone, no matter how strong, has their breaking point. I guess Theo had enough. I knew from the beginning that he would not go back to prison even if it was only for a year.

I am also disappointed in Petro. After all his aunt and uncle did for his family! I guess he blamed Theo for his father leaving and that is why he turned him in. He was confused and remembering his father as the one that cared for him when it was actually Theo.

I would like to make a prediction for Maria and her children. I believe that they will make a home somewhere new and they will be okay as long as they stay together. I think that Lesya will be okay. She has such a brave little soul. 

I thought it was interesting that baby Maxim had a brown paw shaped birthmark on his right hand. Significant to the coyote's paw that was severed by the rabbit snare? Pretty cool.

I am interested to hear everyone's thoughts on these last chapters!

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I think it was Anna who turned Theo in .  She knew the hiding place for the liquor because she visited the house before it was finished and asked what the nitch was for.

MG

[fordmg]

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meme1 wrote:

I felt that there were some loose ends - Stefan's return?  what happens to the land?  Or did I miss some details?

I think the land went back to the State.  There was no one to work it.  We don't know if Stefan comes back to reclaim his children.  But I guess he does not because he is no farmer, and has no way to take care of them.  

MG

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[nfmgirl]

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rkubie wrote:

What is your impression of the land offices and officers that write the letters discussing Theo and Anna's dispute? What is their interpretation of this story?

Has your impression or judgment of Theo changed entirely?

Do you feel you have any sense for the possible outcome of any of the surviving characters? Is there anyone you might make a prediction for?

What is this new Spring like for Maria's family?

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The land officers seem to realize the truth. They seem to recognize that Teodor is telling the truth, and that he has worked the land and made the improvements, but he has no legal grounds. Anna's name is on the homestead, and he has nothing to legally support his claim. Especially since he was so careless with the note that Anna signed confirming his payment for the land and the improvements he had made.

I still like Teodor. He was a good husband and loving father, an ethical and hard-working man. However he could also be foolish. And he proves once again that people have to own their own accountability in what happens to them. Sure, Petro may have "turned him in" to the police, but if he had listened to Maria and gotten rid of the whiskey after the encounter with Stefan, the police wouldn't have found anything and he wouldn't have been going back to prison. If he had been more careful with the receipt for the money he paid to Anna, then the dispute over the land may have been resolved by the land office, and it may have been in his favor. Good people make bad choices, too.

I have hope for Maria's family, because Maria is there. Maria was really the center of this family, and the rock. She'll find a way. And Myron and Dania will be her support system.

[nfmgirl]

We can clearly see in this book how children learn from their parents, as parents are the role models.

Anna's family is a shambles. I don't know what to make of Anna. She is the antithesis of Maria. Where Maria is strong and enduring, Anna is weak and fragile. She is selfish when Maria is selfless. Anna gives up on life when Maria perseveres and faces life's trials head-on.

Likewise Teodor and Stefan are polar opposites. Teodor is responsible, generous (he not only cares for his own family, but for his sister's family as well, and even when money is tight he is sure to buy all of the children penny candy), considerate, hard-working, strong and honest-- a real man. Stefan, on the other hand, is self-centered, irresponsible, brutal, thoughtless, lazy, weak-willed, and conniving. He is worthless.

Little Leysa tries and tries. Poor Happiness. She gives up all hope for ever finding happiness, and does away with it in it's physical form. It is the moment when all hope for the future is lost.

Petro tries to "be a man" in order to earn his father's love and respect. With Teodor as a role model, he held such promise. Under Stefan's tutelage, he becomes a little ruffian, groveling at his father's feet for his recognition and approval. After Stefan is gone, he proves how much like Stefan he really is, as he becomes the new cop informant.

Teodor's family runs like a well-oiled machine. There is love and respect, and everyone knows what their role in the family is and what is expected. Their love helps them to succeed and sustains them through the hard times.

Teodor's children retain their roles. Dania is the "second mother", always reliable and steady. Myron is the son entering manhood, hard-working and responsible like his father, and holding that contentious relationship with his father that sons often have, as they crave their father's respect and wish to be recognized as their equal.

Ivan is walking in Myron's shoes, looks up to him as a role-model as little brothers are wont to do. Katya is the baby, and holds on to her baby ways.

Sofia. Sofia I think is most like Anna, and I think this concerns Teodor. He says at one point that he worries about Sofia the most, because "she wants to be someone else". I think that was Anna. Anna was not happy with her lot in life, born into a poor family as a woman. So she tried to marry her way out of that life. She marries Stefan in hopes that she will be raised up out of poverty and become someone. And instead that decision destroys her and all she touches.

I found it really interesting that near the end there is a sequence where Teodor and Maria have gotten ready for a party, and they talk of how good they look in their finery, and how nice the house smells and all the children are doing their chores, and things sound so idyllic. Yet when the police show up, he notes that the children look malnourished and dirty, and the house smells. It sort of shows how you create your own idea of happiness and prosperity. To a poor family, things were really good. From the outside, things looked really bad, and they were just a starving family living in squalor.

[mgorbatjuk]

I think the sky finally broke. Maria had warned Teodore about the whiskey and how it could get him in trouble. I think Teodore couldn't be a disappointment to Maria one more time. Although I'm sure that's not the only issue that pushed him over the edge. I think it had to do with his sister disappointing him-not only in the land deal but that she would kill her own child. He might have felt a certain responsibility that he could let that happen to a baby. As for Petro a lot of abused children grow up to be abusers themselves. I think he was so frustrated and jealous that his dad acted the way Stefan did that he started acting the way of Stefan. Maybe he thought Stefan would be proud of him and come back if he got rid of Teodore and beat on the girls. As for Lesya my heart just breaks for her. She's really nothing to no one. I think she killed the chicken to punish herself. She was just so angry knowing that she had no control over making anything go right-Happiness was the only thing she ever could control and in desperation to prove that things would always be miserable she made them that way. As for Maria not taking Anna's 2 kids with them when they left-that was the only way Maria had to get back at Anna. I don't think for as strong as Maria was she would have been strong enough to look at Leysa and Petro for the rest of her life and no what their family was responsible for.

[Deltadawn]

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JaneM wrote:

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rkubie wrote:

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Immortal-Spirit wrote:

Stefan was right in one thing. Leaving was the best thing he could ever do. 

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Yes,  that's a question I've had for the group, too. Was stealing the family's money and bolting without a goodbye the best thing Stefan did in this whole novel?

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It was the best thing he did because he walked away from incest and molesting his own daughter.  The consequences of that action would have been worse than stealing and leaving which he had done many times before.

Jane M.

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YES - I agree 100%!!!!

[Deltadawn]

Regarding Teodore's final act - I was stunned and extremely disappointed in him. At first I could not believe that he was capable of doing what he did. But there was definitely foreshadowing of his potential to break down so completely - the torment his memories of  his time in prison caused him, the counting of the steps back and forth, the claustrophia, the despair. He was not able to forgive his sister and make allowances even if only for the sake of her children once the letter writing campaign began. Also, of course, he was completely torn apart by Anna's action of leaving her baby with the coyotes. Knowing what I now know of his state of mind regarding the possibility of returning to prison, I cannot fathom why he would keep the alcohol in his home, when he knew that there was no way he could endure prison and when he also knew that Stefan was not to be trusted...not for a second!

Yes, he did love his children and his wife. Yes, he did work hard- very hard - to make a life for his family. Yes, in some ways he was very strong. But he wasn't strong enough to survive what he had to survive. (Never having been in his shoes, I don't know how I would react).

Maria's character is stronger, has more faith, & resilience. She refuses to be broken. She can't allow herself to be - someone has to take care of the children.

So, I believe that the characters will find a way to go on and live their lives. Myron will become, all too soon, the man of the house. He has prepared himself for this role. His sisters will persevere and live their lives. 

For Maria's family Spring is sad because of the terrible loss that they all have suffered - but at the same time - it is a new beginning. They are moving on-starting over. Also, there is a new baby - a new life. There is hope.

Message Edited by Deltadawn on 08-18-2009 04:33 PM