Middle Chapters: Fall

[Rachel-K]

Can you describe the Autumn season in this rural Canadian climate?

Theo and Maria's family are determined to survive. In what ways do you see this in each of the characters?

Now that Stefan has returned, we can see how each of these households operate-Can you compare what it's like to live inside each house?

How would you describe Anna and Stefan's family life, as opposed to Anna's household without Stefan?

Maria accuses Theo of being dangerously proud-Do you agree, or not?

[blkeyesuzi]

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rkubie wrote:

Now that Stefan has returned, we can see how each of these households operate-Can you compare what it's like to live inside each house?

How would you describe Anna and Stefan's family life, as opposed to Anna's household without Stefan?

Maria accuses Theo of being dangerously proud-Do you agree, or not?

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Maria and Teodor's home is warm and cozy.  The family eats together and tells each other stories.  They enjoy being together.  The fire roars  and the food (while limited) is warm and made with love.  The children are secure and they have not doubt that they are loved and wanted.  Each family member has a place and a purpose.  The children are also taught to be clean and dress up for Sunday and special events.  The care and closeness in the family can be seen in every corner of the household. This home is filled with sunshine, even on rainy days. This family tends to look at life as manageable, though hard.  They are strong because they believe in themselves and each other.

Anna and Stefan's home is cold, dirty, and unwelcoming.  Anna stays in bed much of the time and the children are all unkept.  Everyone makes do for themselves and they are in survivor mode.  Everyone lives in fear of Stefan, as he has such a short fuse and he is very volatile when he drinks.  His abusive demeanor fills the household with fear and anxiety, while Anna's depression leaves her sorry mark on the home as well. Lesya has no feeling of belonging or of being loved and Petro doesn't feel worthy as he tries to prove his worth to his father and his cousin through his endeavors to be the best at everything, whatever the cost.  The children and Anna are starving for love and attention.  No one really has a place in the family and they question their purpose to even exist at times.  A dark cloud sits over this household. 

I think Anna was better while Stefan was gone.  She was gaining some strength without Stefan there to beat her down.  Had he stayed away, perhaps she would have gained some independance.  She started to venture out a little and she was able to interact with the family some.  When Stefan was there, he beat her down and she lost any will to live in the real world, so she disappeared into her own.  Anna was convinced that she had no choice in life and that her only power was in who she chose to marry.  She chose a man who she thought would take her away to the city and make her life different, but she blames herself for her choice and Stefan's shortcomings.  Her lot in life is cast and she has given up. Stefan has overpowered her yet again, raped her, and left her with an unwanted pregnancy.  She has been victimized and she is unable to cope with the circumstances as they are.  Her only escape is under the covers, sleeping her life away, and dreaming of freedom and the only ones who understand her, the coyotes.

I do agree that Stefan was dangerously proud. He's not always willing to just 'let things go' to stay out of trouble when it comes to what is right.  His actions the night he "stole" his wheat show a very proud man who wasn't thinking about the consequences of his actions. His pride has made him do things that were dangerous to him and he wasn't thinking about the fact that his family would pay dearly for his absence should he go to jail or get killed. His pride got in the way of the safety and well-being of his family.

[Sunltcloud]

Maria accuses Teodor of being dangerously proud. Do I agree or not?

This is a very difficult question to answer. On one hand I don't think one can put a qualifier on pride. What does "dangerously" proud mean? Who decides the turning point?

On the other hand pride has to be weighed for its benefits to the family unit. Will it do more harm than good? In what situation is pride prudent?

My father-in-law once told me that, as a young man, he parked his new car around the corner from the place where he worked as janitor. He said that he had swallowed his pride. He had saved money for some time, had worked two jobs, had earned the right to own a car, but as black man in the South he would have generated much hatred with the car, because his boss drove an older older one. He would have endangered his family had he insisted on parking in front of the office where everybody would have seen it.

I think my father-in-law did the right thing. There were, of course, many other times, when he had to put aside his pride in order to survive. How he must have suffered under unjust expectations. It is the repeated "slap in the face" a good man receives when he is not given equal rights, that damages him.

I think Teodor needed to pay his debt to his sister. I do understand his pride in coming clean about the money. I don't understand his insistence that he is entitled to a drink. He certainly deserves one, but if bootleg liquor is illegal, he is playing with his family's future. 

As Maria says: "Is this what you need to prove that you're as good as them? That you're not a peasant who can be kicked and ordered to bow?" She pleads, "Are you willing to risk us?"

Teodor says: "A man should be able to have a drink in his own house."

Again, he is right, but still, drinking is not a wise thing to do. The booze can easily trap him into making mistakes. So I think this is not so much a matter of pride as it is of ego. Ego can make a man "dangerously proud."

Now that I have sorted this out, I'll have to say: YES, Teodor is dangerously proud.

[BDonnelly]

I'm having a really hard time with this book.  It seems like it is a train wreck I can see coming and I'm constantly filled with anxiety while reading it.  That being said, I'm also trying to stay open to the experience of reading the book and whatever redeeming end Ms. Mitchell has for us.

The two families are polar opposites of struggling families.  Clearly, both families have very difficult, physically and emotionally stressful lives.  Maria's family seems to stick together  while Anna's family does not.  Per haps it is because the parents set the tone for the family and in one they are a couple capable of working together and in the other family, Stephan is cruel and abusive and Anna hates him.  (I can't blame her.)  I do not want to imagine living in that household because I would hate the stress, the waiting for him to be mean and/or physically abusive.  And, I personally would rather die than live with him as a husband.  (Easy for me to say in our creature comfort filled world. Quality of life is a big thing for us today in our easy world.)  I think back then it was an actual choice - stay with a man or die from lack of food, shelter, protection. 

I don't agree with Maria saying Theo is dangerously proud but I have not known him for twenty years like she has.  What I have seen shows me that he may be proud but not to a fault so far.  He was willing to take less money for the wheat.  I don't remember when she said that what wasgoing on.

[bookloverjb85]

I have not finished reading the Fall chapter/section yet, but I needed to make the comment that I can not believe Stefan is back and that Anna accepted him back.  He obviously has some kind of effect or hold on her so that she accepts him so easily.  I thought this was not going to be the case when he first arrived because she was so cold to him, but I was proven wrong!

It was interesting to find out that Lesya blames herself for her mother being raped by her father the last time.  She was determined to stay awake and protect her mother, but unfortunately was lulled to sleep by the soothing murmuring of her father's voice.

[aprilh]

Stefan returning is the worst thing possible for both families. Before his return, we saw both families working hard together to make sure everything on the farm got done. Even after the fire, the families came together to work at harvesting the wheat. Once Stefan returned, you could feel tension in the air. Lesya and Petro were made out to be more Anna and Stefan's servants than their children. Neither Stefan or Anna could be bothered doing anything in their household. They wouldn't even help Lesya keep the fire burning! Even little Petro tried unsuccessfully to split fire wood. With only Lesya doing all the work, Stefan and Anna's family started to fall apart. Stefan arguing with Teodor makes matters so much worse. The two families start to drift apart and now it is uncertain if they will ever speak again.

Stefan disgusts me at this point. He is an awful husband and father. It is mentioned he threw a log at Anna (which hit her leg) for rattling the dishes too loudly. Then, we witness him dragging a pregnant Anna out the door by the hair and shoving her face in the snow repeatedly after she asks him to leave. Stefan is not a good influence on Petro. He idolizes his father and Stefan's actions are making him think it is okay to abuse others. On page 214 it is written: "Stefan had a plan when he stormed out of the house, yanking the boy with him. He was going to show his son how a man deals with a thief. He had already shown him how to deal with a sobbing woman pleading with him not to go." This just made me feel sick to think how all this was going to change Petro.

[thewanderingjew]

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rkubie wrote:
Theo and Maria's family are determined to survive...snip

The thing that I think stands out the most in terms of desire to survive is the optimism and happiness that threads itself through the family of Teodor and Maria. No matter what life gives them, they are determined to deal with it and not be defeated. Even the children try to step up to the plate and help.

Contrasting them with Anna and Stefan, on the other hand, who blame everyone else for their troubles and do nothing positive to change their circumstances, wallowing in their hardship, points it out even further.

Maria and Teodor always seem to regroup and replan. They pull up their bootstraps and face another day. Anna and Stefan run away in one way or another, she to her bed and he to "someplace else". The children are left to make the adult decisions. They are not equipped for that.

Maria and Teodor seem unselfish while Anna and Stefan are concerned only with their own needs which leads even to the neglect of their own children.

Attitude is so important and this novel really points that out.

Message Edited by thewanderingjew on 08-10-2009 08:24 AM

[thewanderingjew]

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rkubie wrote:

Now that Stefan has returned, we can see how each of these households operate-Can you compare what it's like to live inside each house?

In Maria and Teodor's home, there is always something productive going on and something productive being planned. It is a home filled with laughter.

In Anna and Stefan's home, there is usually nothing productive going on. There is a lot of complaining about how awful life treated them and how someone else is to blame for their problems. The atmosphere is overburdened with pessimism. It is a home filled with sorrow.

[AliceLee428]

Fall Season:  Getting cold early---first snow is October 12.  Imperative to be ready for a long, cold, snowy winter.

Theo's family:  Work together---everyone does their share to prepare for winter.  It's hard, but there's love in the home.  A feeling of "we're all in this together."

Stefan's family:  Selfish adults make for sad, lonely, and neglected children.  The children (particularly Lesya) have had to take on adult roles and do their best to provide for their parents.

Anna's household without Stefan was better.  As a battered wife, Anna hates Stefan, yet when he threatens to leave, she begs him to stay (this is common in an abusive relationship, I believe).

Yes, I agree that Theo is dangerously proud.  Having a drink in your own home is not important enough to risk more jail time.  

[booksJT]

Maria and Theo's home is warm and comfy. The parents make the kids feel safe. There is a lot of nurturing going on in the household. The children and the parents each have role to play in supporting the household.

Anna and Stefan home is cold. The parents don't get along. Stefan only returned home because he had no place else to go. Anna is distant with her husband and her children. Everyone has to fend for themselves when Maria is not helping them out. Stefan is so volatile the family lives in fear of him. Anna doesn't  want to get on his bad side for fear that he might hurt her or the kids as he done in the past.

I think Anna was more independent when Stefan wasn't there. She was more nurturing to her children. Anna was getting some self esteem until Stefan returned. Stefan made her feel useless and no more than his slave. Anna thought that she had married a man who would  take care of her for the rest of her life. Once she found out what he really was she didn't want to have anything to with him anymore. Unfortunately for her she had no one to take care of her and the kids.

I agree that Theo was dangerously proud. He was not willing to let things go. He didn't think about the consequences after he stole the wheat back. Teodoe's pride made him commit dangerous acts that would later cause his family to suffer. He never thought how his family would manage if something should happen to him.

I think the Autumn season in Canada was probably  cold and difficult to grow crops.

[cmmn]

The autumn season is good in Canada.  The crops are ripening and the weather is holding.  Maria is able to reap enough from her garden to set aside food for the long winter she knows is coming and still have enough to sell in town.  She is a shrewd dealer, not settling for the first price the store keeper is offering to pay.  She is proud to see the results of her hard work on display in the window after the deal is made.

Once Stefan returns his household is even more dreary.  The children are afraid of their father.  Petro wants so badly to please his father so that he won't go away again but somehow knows nothing will be enough.  Anna has lost all of her self repect and take anything Stefan deems she deserves.  Lesya sees her father for what he is but can do nothing about it. 

[Zephyr_Marie]

On the one hand I couldn't believe that Stefan returned, and on the other hand, I could see it coming. He is definitely one of the most frustrating aspects of this story, and I tried to understand why Anna would take him back. She was alone with two children, but he is a horrible man. They were better off without him... all of them were better off without him - Theo and Maria's family as well.

As for Theo being dangerously proud - I can somewhat agree with Maria on this, but not entirely.  I can understand her irritation with his secret in the wall, though. He already spent time in prison, and he would so easily risk it again? He has a family to care for, and that should be at the forefront of his mind, especially with Stefan's return and his untrustworthiness.

[misslynn]

Autumn in the rural area of Northern Canada is generally what I think of winter in midwestern America. The first light snow fall comes in mid-December and continues into full blown snowstorms before winter proper even hits. For settlers, autumn was the time to do some serious calculations. For, winter is certain to be much more severe. Inventories are taken of who has what, who can do with what they have got, and who can pass on what they've got to someone smaller, and what can be mended to make do. As far as food, which one's can be stored or preserved? And, ultimately, the Northern Canadian settlers need to make certain they can just survive the winter.

[dhaupt]

Fall -

In a usually prosperous time after harvest etc.. Theo and his family are taking stock of what they have and relishing in the fact that it could be worse.

This family has survived war, fire, and prison and I think they are well equipped to handle anything just by their tenacity. The parents constantly put the children first making sure they have clothes and shoes and food before anything else. I liked the fact that there was a celebration in the face of all the adversity they faced. I envy the closeness of their family and I believe many children would give up riches to be loved the way these children are.

I was sort of let down by Theo when he wouldn't part with the moonshine though, to me it didn't make sense why risk prison again, why risk your family like that when they have so much else to worry about now that that snake Stefan is back.

It really infuriated me to see how Anna's household deteriorated at the return of Stefan, the children are the ones who are suffering. And it's not because Anna took such good care of them in the first place, if not for Maria and Teodor those poor children would have starved and been without clothes or anything else. This section also showed me how selfish Anna is, engorging herself and not saving for worse times in the dead of winter. And Stefan OMG what a snake he is, sending his children to do the work he should take care of. 

I've thought a lot about if I thought Teodor was too proud, and the only conclusion I can come to is that so much of his self esteem, his manhood, his ability to care for his family, not being able to own land was all taken from him and even though he's grateful for his family what does he have left if not pride. I think without his pride he couldn't exist, he would become less than human and would feel worthless. 

[dhaupt]

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BDonnelly wrote:

I'm having a really hard time with this book.  It seems like it is a train wreck I can see coming and I'm constantly filled with anxiety while reading it.  That being said, I'm also trying to stay open to the experience of reading the book and whatever redeeming end Ms. Mitchell has for us.

I totally agree with your train wreck description, but I'm trying really hard to look at it a bit differently. I try to see through the rubble of the wreck and see the survivors and how are they coping, are they helping each other or just themselves.

And I really like Happily Ever After novels so I'm just as trepidatious as you are about the final outcome. And even though it's a bit darker than I usually read, I'm still enjoying it. I hope you are too! 

[misslynn]

It is mainly Theo and Maria that show detrmination for survival in the autumn portion of the novel. Theo calculates what is needed and what can wait. He estimates the profirt he will get for the grain and bargains like crazy to get a decent price. Maria also keeps track of the food rations. She watched in horror as Anna eats like crazy and "Suggests she should save some for tomorrow"(146). Of course, Anna doesn't save a thing. Both Theo and Anna keep an eye an Anna's house to make sure the chores are being done. At least they are able to teach Petro and Lesya the skills to survive even if the parents have no clue.

[nfam]

Pride does seem to be Teodor's major sin. Although Stefan is a villian and Anna a weak, depressed character, it is actually Teodor's actions that precipitate the tragedy in this story. First, he must sell the wheat, and he wants a good price. It's excellent wheat, in his extimation. Then, he must pay Anna immediately and get her to sign a paper. Holding on to the money as Maria suggested and paying in the spring would have taken both money and ownership off the table and allowed the fall to pass into winter without so much conflict. The other action that precipitated the problem led out of selling the wheat and, in Theo's mind, paying off the farm. He started drinking. He tells Maria, "A man should have a right to drink in his own house." It's the statement of a proud man. He believes in his rights, although it leads to the police searching the house.

In my view, Theo is as brittle a character as Anna. He works, he fights for his rights, and he's a good man, but his pride gets in the way. Maria bends with the wind. Theo describes her well. "She will make do with what she has." This is in contrast to their daughter, Sophia, who can't stop wishing to be someone else. It seems to me that she is most like Theo and Anna, whereas Danyia and Myron appear to be more like Anna.

It's interesting to see how the internal conflict of the characters is revealed in their homes, their relationships with their famililes and in the way they relate to the land.

[Zeal]

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rkubie wrote:

Can you describe the Autumn season in this rural Canadian climate?

Theo and Maria's family are determined to survive. In what ways do you see this in each of the characters?

Now that Stefan has returned, we can see how each of these households operate-Can you compare what it's like to live inside each house?

How would you describe Anna and Stefan's family life, as opposed to Anna's household without Stefan?

Maria accuses Theo of being dangerously proud-Do you agree, or not?

---

Autumn is virtually nonexistent in this harsh climate.  The section begins with, "The first snow falls October 12, while everyone is sleeping."  It is a sign of things to come (harsh weather and more struggles).  Theodor is already planning what supplies will be needed and what he will purchase with the wheat profit.  He ends up unexpectedly rushing to town to sell the wheat when it is almost lunch time, snowing, and will be dark soon.  "We have to get the grain out."  "We need blankets and sheets.  We are taking the grain in."    Maria immediately begins to worry when the fist snow fall although it is just a dusting.  "This is just a dusting, she scolds herself, this isn't even winter."  "It's okay, little boy, it's only snow."  She is trying to reasure herself.

Theodor and Maria are definitely both survivors.  Theodor begins to refigure his supply list once he accepts the fact that the wheat will bring in less profit than expected.  He will make due with what he has.  Theodor also ventures out into extreme snow when he needs to in order to chop the wood, check on the animals (some a mile away at Anna's), and complete anything necessary for his family's survival.  The best example of Maria's will and determination to survive comes back as a memory to her when Theodor was still in prison.  "The children were huddled on the straw mattress, shivering.  She had piled every spare piece of clothing on top of them to fend off the bitter cold."  Maria rationed the food and recalls catching Ivan "...eating a raw potato he had stolen from their precious stores.  She had whipped him with the wooden spoon until it broke."  She also remembers, "...shoving one of the last sticks of wood into the stove, realizing that she would have to burn one of the chairs next."

Maria and Theodor's house if full of love despite the harsh conditions of the climate.  Both would do anything for their family.  Small moments of tenderness toward the children are present and examples of extreme concern for them are evident.  The family dances together and remembers the traditions of the old country.  Maria screams for Myron over and over again (the other children join her) when he does not return from checking the rabbit snares and she hears the coyotes.  She is frantic until he returns safely.  The children are also punished when necessary which also establishes love in the family.  Maria and Theodor want their children to grow-up responsible and loving themselves.

Anna and Stefan's house could not be more opposite.  There is no love, only fear, neglect, and longing.  Petro cherishes the apple that Stefan brings him because it is one of the only signs of affection that he has ever received from his father.  He does not share it with Lesya and holds it to his cheek while he sleeps.  Stefan beats Ivan and Anna and inappropriately stares at Lesya making her extremely uncomfortable.  At ten, Lesya has to be continuously on guard from her father, even though she does not quite understand why she feels this way.  Lesya has also had to assume almost all of the duties that a mother should undertake.  She is forced to grow-up way too fast.  Stefan goes out of his way to corrupt Petro, taking his to Theodor's house in order to "...show his son how a man deals with a thief.  He had already shown him how to deal with a sobbing woman.  He was going to show his boy why men feared and respected him in the old country."  Finally, Anna searches out the coyotes in order to escape her family situation and lack of love in her life.

Anna's life without Stefan is not much better than having him at home with the family.  She still struggles with her depression.  However, without Stefan, she does not have to deal with the beatings, gluttony, and crude behavior.  Without Stefan, Anna is at least able to accept some of the love shown by Maria and her brother.  Why Anna goes after Stefan when he marches out of the house and begs him to stay was beyond my ability to comprehend.  Why would she subject herself and her children to more hatred and abuse?

Theodor is definitely proud, but in a good way, not a dangerous way.  He sticks up for himself and his family under any circumstances and is willing to sacrifice his relationship with his sister in order to prove that the land is rightfully his.  His family comes first.

[MsReaderCP]

It's autumn and it's already snowing and it feels like winter.  The things that really convey the coldness to me are the layers of clothing that everyone has to wear and how precious a pair of mittens or wool socks are.  Also there is the coldness of Anna's house that makes no one want to get out of bed compared to the warmness of Maria's house.  The coldness/warmness of the houses reflects the love and closeness of the families in each one.

Poor Lesya, she is so determined to work hard and first, please Teo and secondly, make her home the loving working home of Maria and Teo's.  But she is only a little girl.  Doesn't Sofia, not wanting to get dirty and her dreams of a different life remind you of a yound Anna?

[mroet]

Autumn is a hard season for Teodor, he his trying to manage what money will come from the sale of the wheat but there is not enough to go around and watching him take things off the must buy list are hard.

 

With or without Stefan is a horrible place for the family.  Anna is barely able to function in the real world and everything is left to Lesya and Maria without Stefan.  But after Stefan comes home then Lesya is left alone with little help.  Petro believes his father to be a wonderful man and goes to great lengths to please a man, who takes and never gives back.

 

No I do not believe that Theodor is dangerously proud, I believe him to be a man who wants what is best for his family – both his own and that of Anna’s.  I can find no fault in a man who gives everything and takes very little in return.