Time and Nature

[babzilla41]

I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

[DSaff]

Teodore and his family struggle against the land by plowing where it hasn't been plowed before, by trying to survive the seasons without proper clothing, and by being uninformed about harsh weather conditions like dust storms. But, each of these things was normal for people coming to a new land. Life was hard, and making a living was a struggle at first.

They lived in harmony with the land by eating everything they caught or grew, by using cleared trees for their home and furniture, and by being respectful of the land and animals that inhabited it.

I feel both hope and dread as the story continues. The hope comes from the work ethic of Teodore and Maria, which is being passed to their children. The dread is for Stefan and Anna and the garbage they are passing to their children. Lesya has enough of Maria in her for now, but will she marry as her mother did? Petro seems doomed, and he is still a little boy.

The only child who seems to be anxious about her survival is Sophia. She doesn't want to be here. She doesn't want to farm. She wants pretty dresses and to live in town with friends and beaus. Sophia is too much like Anna for my liking right now, and I fear for her.

[melisndav]

In what ways does this family seem in harmony with their environment, and in what ways do they struggling against it?  The fact that they grow a garden and wheat, in an area where they were not sure if the plant life would take due to the environment, shows that the family never gave up hope and that God would provide them with everything that they needed.  They believed they had already come through hardship after hardship, that it will be better in the long run.  However, nature shows them again that anything can happen, what with the forest fire and the dust storm.  Nature showed them not to take anything for granted for what you gain can be taken away just as easily.

Do you feel more a sense of hope that time is on their side, or a sense of dread that they are racing against time for survival?  Sense of dread.  As I turned every page, I was praying that Teodor's family life would improve.  However, as I turned the pages, it seems that hardship was deemed to be left at this family's doorstep.

Do the children share their parents anxieties about their survival?  I believe that children in general can sense what their parents are going through even when the parents try to keep it hidden from them.  The eldest children were very anxious to help with the survival of the family. 

[aprilh]

Nature in this novel is a character all its own. The fire, the dust storm, the bitter cold enveloping these families, are all hardships these characters have to face. At this point in time I'm tempted to compare nature to Stefan. I get an uneasy feeling whenever I hear Stefan's name mentioned and the same goes for the description of nature. Seeing the snow begin to fall, all I could think was "Now what will these families have face?" I pictured these characters dying many times so far (during the fire and dust storm) and I'm hoping they make it through the fall and winter. Nature is almost toying with these characters, seeing how much it can throw at them before they break down.

Many times I've felt hope that these families will survive. They made it through the fire intact and the dust storm. The snow has come and blanketed them, and still they wake up every morning and do their chores, determined to survive.  A feeling of dread keeps creeping into my stomach though every time I remember the photograph at the beginning of the novel and what we learn is to come. How much more can this family possibly take?

I think the children realize what's going on, but they're still children. One minute they can be worried about how they will survive through the fall and winter and the next they can be off playing in the snow. I think they can be aware of how dire their situation is, but at the end of the day it is their parents' responsibility to take care of them and make sure they are safe.

[KathyS]

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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Do you really think Stefan cares about his family?  He hasn't so far.  He only cares about what he can steal from someone else.  He's not someone who thinks of consequences or anything that has to do with the future....he lives in the present, and if that means being a scumbag to get what he wants, then that's what he'll be.  Everyone owes him a living...steal the land and sell it, and drink, gamble, and throw it away until he has nothing left....as he's always done..... is my guess.

[DSaff]

I think Stefan sees Teodore as a threat to his family and to his plot to sell the land and run away with the money. He wants to get rid of him and sending him back to jail would be perfect. Then both women would be dependent on him. Stefan is a twisted man.

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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[babzilla41]

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DSaff wrote:

I think Stefan sees Teodore as a threat to his family and to his plot to sell the land and run away with the money. He wants to get rid of him and sending him back to jail would be perfect. Then both women would be dependent on him. Stefan is a twisted man.

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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I agree with you...but, don't forget, if the terms of the agreement to work the land, build several buildings plus harvest crops aren't adhered to within three years, the government takes the land back.  Maria and Anna barely scraped by while Teodore was in jail - what makes him think that they could possibly manage to fulfill the terms of the agreement without Teodore?  They can't - therefore everyone looses - including Stefan.  I wasn't under the impression that Stefan could outright sell the land.

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[DSaff]

I agree, but Stefan thinks he has everyone in town fooled. When he talks about what he does when he meets Lesya in town or when he first comes home, he appears to think they like him. His delusions keep him going, which is why I think he figured he would get past the "paper agreement." I also think he sees how Teodore is drawn to the land and knows he won't leave. Putting him back in jail can take him out of the picture and allow Stefan to hire a few men to plow the extra land. Two different ways to get the land. But, I haven't read the last section so I could be very wrong.

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babzilla41 wrote:

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DSaff wrote:

I think Stefan sees Teodore as a threat to his family and to his plot to sell the land and run away with the money. He wants to get rid of him and sending him back to jail would be perfect. Then both women would be dependent on him. Stefan is a twisted man.

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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I agree with you...but, don't forget, if the terms of the agreement to work the land, build several buildings plus harvest crops aren't adhered to within three years, the government takes the land back.  Maria and Anna barely scraped by while Teodore was in jail - what makes him think that they could possibly manage to fulfill the terms of the agreement without Teodore?  They can't - therefore everyone looses - including Stefan.  I wasn't under the impression that Stefan could outright sell the land.

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[debbook]

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KathyS wrote:

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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Do you really think Stefan cares about his family?  He hasn't so far.  He only cares about what he can steal from someone else.  He's not someone who thinks of consequences or anything that has to do with the future....he lives in the present, and if that means being a scumbag to get what he wants, then that's what he'll be.  Everyone owes him a living...steal the land and sell it, and drink, gamble, and throw it away until he has nothing left....as he's always done..... is my guess.

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Stefan cares about no one. But at least he stopped himself (barely) with Lesya. I kept thinking they should kill him and burying him in the fields. I may have been reading too many crime books though

[debbook]

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aprilh wrote:

Nature in this novel is a character all its own. The fire, the dust storm, the bitter cold enveloping these families, are all hardships these characters have to face. At this point in time I'm tempted to compare nature to Stefan. I get an uneasy feeling whenever I hear Stefan's name mentioned and the same goes for the description of nature. Seeing the snow begin to fall, all I could think was "Now what will these families have face?" I pictured these characters dying many times so far (during the fire and dust storm) and I'm hoping they make it through the fall and winter. Nature is almost toying with these characters, seeing how much it can throw at them before they break down.

Many times I've felt hope that these families will survive. They made it through the fire intact and the dust storm. The snow has come and blanketed them, and still they wake up every morning and do their chores, determined to survive.  A feeling of dread keeps creeping into my stomach though every time I remember the photograph at the beginning of the novel and what we learn is to come. How much more can this family possibly take?

I think the children realize what's going on, but they're still children. One minute they can be worried about how they will survive through the fall and winter and the next they can be off playing in the snow. I think they can be aware of how dire their situation is, but at the end of the day it is their parents' responsibility to take care of them and make sure they are safe.

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I was worried for the farm just because of the fickleness of nature. When Stefan showed back up, then i was really scared. he was worse than the weather

[Sheltiemama]

Farmers have to be in harmony with their environment! I loved the descriptions of the family planting, taking care of and harvesting their vegetables. I've often thought that I couldn't be a farmer. You're just too vulnerable to the weather. The weather is both a friend and an enemy. Oh, I feel like they're racing against time for their survival. Especially after part of the wheat burns and Theo doesn't get anywhere near as much for it as he had expected. I think all the children are anxious to various degrees, and this largely depends on age. You couldn't be the children of farmers and not absorb some of that anxiety. I think Leysa understands the dangers far more than her mother does.

[Shapatm]

It feels like the family is struggling against nature by just being on the land at times.  They struggle so much with the planting.  They move rocks out of the furrows and pick the roots and other debris out the the field.  They fight the fire to save the growing fields.  The women and children guard the garden and domestic animals from the native birds, insects, and the coyotes.  At times they're also part of the land and their environment.  They use everything in every way they possibly can.  The bones, organs and flesh of the animals is used for food and the skin is used for something.  They instinctively do exactly what the animals do by going to the pond to try and get away from the fire and survive. 

I don't know if time is on their side but I do have hope that if they can continue to survive they will be able to make a life and eventually find some sort of prosperity.  Its more of a wild hope because their life is so uncertain.  Things could so easily go differently for them.  The fire could have turned and taken out not only the crop but the houses.  The dust storm could have been worse.  They've been somewhat lucky.  I just hope their luck can continue.

At time the children do share their parents worries about survival in this new land but they also are more carefree and let themselves enjoy things when they can.  The parents have so much more life experience that the children that it makes them more wary of just what will go wrong next.  I think Myron and Dania mirror more of Maria and Teodor's concern that the younger children and that is because they are growing up and learning what it means to be responsible for the survival of those around you.

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[KathyS]

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debbook wrote:

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KathyS wrote:

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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Do you really think Stefan cares about his family?  He hasn't so far.  He only cares about what he can steal from someone else.  He's not someone who thinks of consequences or anything that has to do with the future....he lives in the present, and if that means being a scumbag to get what he wants, then that's what he'll be.  Everyone owes him a living...steal the land and sell it, and drink, gamble, and throw it away until he has nothing left....as he's always done..... is my guess.

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Stefan cares about no one. But at least he stopped himself (barely) with Lesya. I kept thinking they should kill him and burying him in the fields. I may have been reading too many crime books though

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He had his moments, (barely), but I trusted him not one iota!... I just wished he'd 'conveniently' disappear....and be served to the coyotes for dinner!  But, he was the catalyst to this story!  This definitely wasn't Little House On The Prairie! Ha!

[michaelsjlrc]

I couldn't help but thinking of the story of the ants and the grasshopper as I read this part of the book (fall).  Maria and Teodor are the ants and Stefan and Anna are grasshoppers. Leysia tries to be an ant, but is fighting a losing battle. 

I'm not sure that they are living in harmony with their environment - the environment certainly seems to be fighting against them at every turn: Fire, mice, early snow - what's next? Their garden seemed to do well for them, but that was about it.

Honestly, I don't feel much hope for them.  This book has been one disaster after another, and I really don't have much sense that they will ever get a break. Especially since none of the tragedies hinted at in the intro have come to pass yet.  Some of them will survive, but their life will never be easy.

I do feel that the children share their parents anxieties about survival. They've been through the tough winter's before and they know what is ahead.  They may not be as stressed this year since their father is back, but the anxiety isn't going to completely disappear.

[Zeal]

I think this comes back to the concept of pride in a way.  Theodor has made Stefan look like the fool he is.  He made Anna sign the paper for the land which really made Stefan furious.  Stefan shows up unannounced at Theodor's house and is completely jealous of all that he sees...the warmth, stocked pantry, the whiskey, singing...all indicating love and happiness.  This is something Stefan has never known and probably never will, but I am sure that in some way, Stefan can sense what he is missing.  Therefore, he wants to destroy all that Theodor and Maria have built for themselves and their family.  Stefan's main objective is to get Theodor off "his" land and out of his life!

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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[Zeal]

I found your comparison of nature to Stefan very interesting and well stated!  I completely agree with your points.  I never would have thought to look at things this way.  Thanks for sharing!

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aprilh wrote:

Nature in this novel is a character all its own. The fire, the dust storm, the bitter cold enveloping these families, are all hardships these characters have to face. At this point in time I'm tempted to compare nature to Stefan. I get an uneasy feeling whenever I hear Stefan's name mentioned and the same goes for the description of nature. Seeing the snow begin to fall, all I could think was "Now what will these families have face?" I pictured these characters dying many times so far (during the fire and dust storm) and I'm hoping they make it through the fall and winter. Nature is almost toying with these characters, seeing how much it can throw at them before they break down.

Many times I've felt hope that these families will survive. They made it through the fire intact and the dust storm. The snow has come and blanketed them, and still they wake up every morning and do their chores, determined to survive.  A feeling of dread keeps creeping into my stomach though every time I remember the photograph at the beginning of the novel and what we learn is to come. How much more can this family possibly take?

I think the children realize what's going on, but they're still children. One minute they can be worried about how they will survive through the fall and winter and the next they can be off playing in the snow. I think they can be aware of how dire their situation is, but at the end of the day it is their parents' responsibility to take care of them and make sure they are safe.

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[Sunltcloud]

I wonder what it means to live in harmony with one's environment. As far as I am concerned, at best, there is an uneasy truce. Environment always has the upper hand in the long run. I've seen this most clearly in tropical environments. A spot, untended by humans for a short period of time, becomes, once more, a tangle of natural growth. The garden, weeded regularly, suffers the constant bombardment of airborn invaders. Even deforestation eventually reseeds. So, it seems to me that humans are always at a disadvantage and have to struggle to create harmony.  

If it means to adapt to a force more powerful than a human can conquer, then all those who rebuild after a flood, reseed after their crop burns down, reinvent their dreams after a plague, and are careful not to add to further distruction by poisoning and ruthless overuse, struggle to live in harmony with the environment.

Teodor and his family give their all to scratch out a tiny living, but considering that there is disunity between the two arms of the family and cooperation is constantly undermined by Stefan, I have little hope that there is enough time to overcome the obstacles an unfriendly government throws their way. Add to this nature's unpredictability and I feel more dread than hope.  

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rkubie wrote:

In what ways does this family seem in harmony with their environment, and in what ways do they struggling against it?

Do you feel more a sense of hope that time is on their side, or a sense of dread that they are racing against time for survival?

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[babzilla41]

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DSaff wrote:

I agree, but Stefan thinks he has everyone in town fooled. When he talks about what he does when he meets Lesya in town or when he first comes home, he appears to think they like him. His delusions keep him going, which is why I think he figured he would get past the "paper agreement." I also think he sees how Teodore is drawn to the land and knows he won't leave. Putting him back in jail can take him out of the picture and allow Stefan to hire a few men to plow the extra land. Two different ways to get the land. But, I haven't read the last section so I could be very wrong.

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babzilla41 wrote:

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DSaff wrote:

I think Stefan sees Teodore as a threat to his family and to his plot to sell the land and run away with the money. He wants to get rid of him and sending him back to jail would be perfect. Then both women would be dependent on him. Stefan is a twisted man.

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babzilla41 wrote:
I wonder what Stefan was thinking when he told the police about Theo's whiskey?  He must realize that he and his family are dependent upon Theo and Theo's family - whether he wants to admit it or not.  Even if he's trying to muster favor with the police, he's just shooting himself in the foot.  He is a pig...in every sense of the word.

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I agree with you...but, don't forget, if the terms of the agreement to work the land, build several buildings plus harvest crops aren't adhered to within three years, the government takes the land back.  Maria and Anna barely scraped by while Teodore was in jail - what makes him think that they could possibly manage to fulfill the terms of the agreement without Teodore?  They can't - therefore everyone looses - including Stefan.  I wasn't under the impression that Stefan could outright sell the land.

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Good thoughts!  I haven't read the end either...so I guess we'll have to stay tuned!

[sailorreader]

I found the parents to be in a position that required them to take the environment into their "stride". 

Tedor and Maria planned their work/tasks around the weather and the affect it would have on the family.  Canning food, collecting wood, etc.

I believe this enabled the children to be "unbothered" by the weather. They went out into the snow, checked on items they had hidden, etc.

Anna did nothing to prepare for the weather and in her case the weather did not "bother her at all".  It appeared to me that it was just another day to live through.

Lesya, her daughter, seemed to realize the impact on her family and the weather and tried to prepare for herself.  She was "bothered"  by the weather due to her respect for the work and planning that needed to be done in preparation for the various seasons. 

[Wisteria-L]

Do you feel more a sense of hope that time is on their side, or a sense of dread that they are racing against time for survival?

Teodor has a sense of hope preparing is farmland and anticipating the following year expanding his crop to produce higher yield. Even when the prices drop, he still anticipates a better year to come. 

Teodor feels a sense of dread when he discovers the mice have entered his grain bin, it is an immediate emergency to move the grain or all will be lost. "WE HAVE TO GET THE GRAIN OUT." 171.  Myron pauses mid-strike with the ax-high, a pile of split wood at his feet. 

"NOW! Teodor barks. "Get the shovels and whatever bags you can find."

I can only imagine the anxiety Myron feels when he hears his father bark the order Now!

He realizes the desperation and he had not moved fast enough. I would have been very anxious in this situation. 

Later in the same scene as Myron harnesses the horse to the cart he is rubbing the forelock and consoles the horse. Then he hears. "Myron! he replys "

Coming!"

As they shovel the grain and work in a rhythm...."Myron, panting struggles to keep pac. Once, he falters and the shovels slam together again. Sweat trickles into Myron's eyes. He wishes he had taken off his coat too." (174)

Teodor is very abrupt with Myron, and on the ride to town with the grain, we won't speak to him even though Myron wishes he would.  He thinks, "I'm here if you want to talk."

When they arrive all he says to Myron is "Stay with the horse."(178)

Katya has anxiety over the blanket of her mothers that she ruined. Crying in bed she says to her Tato, as he tries to console her. 

"Shhhh," Teodor soothes her. 

Tears spring to her eyes. "I stole Mama's blanket."

He thinks she's had a bad dream and is about to say so when Katya breaks his heart.

This is such a touching father daughter scene in such juxtaposition to his recent time spent with Myron. 

To me it showed that when survival threatened Teodor. His personality switched. He was like Jekyl and Hyde. He had an adrenaline rush, power, one track mind, unfatherly, abrupt. He showed no feelings for Myron, only the grain. The grain represents survival.

Yet, with Katya, the blanket is not essential, since it doesn't interfere with his families future survival.  Even though she did something wrong, he has a soft spot for her.  Myron did nothing wrong and he is badgered.  What should Teodor expect of Myron...a man's labor?  Both children must have felt anxiety but in different ways.