Vixen Discussion: Part I: Speak Easy through page 144

[maxcat]

literature wrote:

The prologue sets the stage for things to come.  Often you read the prologue, try to remember everything and then it tends to take a back seat as the plot thickens.  The one thing that actually struck a familiar cord was on page 41, "Gloria's hair swept across her forehead like a crinkled autumn leaf, billowing over one's sea-green eye before delicately ending..."  Then I went back to the prologue, "She stared into the mirror.  Everything was perfection:  green eyes smoldering, checkbones rouged..."  Could the prologue be describing Gloria?  I don't remember reading any descriptions of Lorraine's or Clara's eyes, just Marcus's blue eyes and it would be out of context for Marcus to be dressed in drag.  Any thoughts?

You pose an interesting question. I, myself, keep thinking it is someone from Clara's past. But supposedly, Clara doesn't know Gloria or has she met her before? The prologue is like a tendril that keeps you wound up and wondering who has a gun and is coming for Clara. I suppose we will find out as we read on.

[kristyn711]

I do wonder, though, if once Lorraine (if she does, of course) betrays Gloria over her jealousy, she really is able to take a step back and become a better person.  Sometimes people do the most growing when they make huge mistakes and learn from them.  I stopped at page 144, so I don't really know how this will play out, but I am not ready to write off Lorraine just yet.  She is young, she is jealous of the things she doesn't have that Gloria does, and I think she might still come out of this a better person.

Or, she could become a bitter, horrible person.

Time will tell.

[TudorRose]

Bonnie,

I agree with your assessment of Clara.  I do think that Marcus feels that there is more than what is on the surface.  He is intrigued by her, but he doesn't yet understand why.

[TudorRose]

Atreyu59,  Thanks for the comments.  I can't believe you have finished the book along with keeping up with a demanding school schedule.  My hats off to you!

As far as staying on schedule goes, I guess I like a good surprise.  I like the tension of thinking about what comes next, so I try to limit myself to about 20 pages a day.  That way I get a little taste everyday, but I still have that feeling of wondering what is coming next!

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Atreyu59 wrote:

TO tudorose:

I have to commend you on your good, not just good but OUTSTANDING self-control!  I read the entire book against my will (somewhat- noisey I guess), then read each and every post from the group, then can't stay off the boards, nor can I get my paws off the book cover, over and over- seeing if I missed a passage; all the time I have college HIST homework & a major paper due next week!  

I typically don't read this much and discuss this much of a novel- but this one is truly a good, great! read.  So far I think everyone has done a tremendous job at not SPOILing any of the rest of the book & that is saying something.  Keep up the reading

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you said .    .    .    .

               I have managed to control myself and haven't finished Vixen yet!  I always worry about spoilers, so I am glad to have stayed on track this time. 

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[Fairqueen2]

I feel that each of the girls wants to change their appearance because they want to be seen as something different that what people have thought of them in the past. For instance, Clara is becoming 'Country Clara' to try and become that wholesome, innocent-as-the-day-I-was-born type of girl. She's already done the whole wild and crazy flapper thing, so now she's going towards the other end of the spectrum. I think doing this actually could be good for her because it might make her look at how she acted in New York and figure out what kind of person she wants to be.

Lorraine though is trying to become the wild and crazy girl because she wants attention for herself. You can see that while she and Gloria are good friends, she is quite jealous of what her friend has and she believes that if she acts out in this way that she'll get the attention she wants. I think that Lorraine also needs to wake up and see that Marcus isn't in to her. If he was he would have put in more effort to show he likes her. Somehow I can see Marcus actually falling for Clara despite the fact he's only supposed to make her think she likes him. If this does happen, then Lorraine might be the one in the prologue with the gun!

Gloria is trying to break out of her pampered rich girl role that she's lived in her whole life. I feel that she thinks that by going to the Green Mill speak easy and getting a bob that she is behaving as a bad girl when in reality she's just still the same girl whose trying to get into something that as Jerome put it "you think it makes you free". Doing all of this isn't making her free, I feel that instead doing all of this will only help her to realize what she really wants. Only then will she be truly free from not only her fiancé, but from herself as well.

[girlie0620]

I like how you wrote that true freedom is not a temporary escape.

I think all the characters are in this state of longing....they are each trying to find out who they really are, as it should be right...they are young. What I think the question is for me, is that these "temporary changes" they are experiencing, are they making a true impact on the characters themselves? I mean...Gloria's dress changes and drinking- is that really making an impact on her...who she is. What about Clara; she is playing a role also but it seems to be impacting her more...fundamentally.

I think the characters are well written and the story great. Can't wait to finish the book.  

[TudorRose]

Another thought on the use of color in the novel...

Maybe Jillian is using color as a device to point out how prominent skin color was a that time.  Whites and blacks were not supposed to mix and anyone in the girls' social set would be scandalized by associating with a person of color.  Society in the 20's was very segregated, not only between blacks and whites, but between ethnic groups as well.  Maybe Jillian is illustrating the homogenic quality of society at the time.

[blue2280]

First off, I have finished the book, and for me, it started off really slow. But, as I got more and more into it, it got much much better. And, I will say - it finished in such a way that I am definitely intrigued to read the next.

Changing your looks doesn't change who you are, but it can change people's perspectives and who THEY think you are - first impressions and all that. If it is taboo to shear your hair off and wear bright lipstick because those girls do it, then you are in fact making the impression that you want to be one of those girls, which in will, inevitably, make people look at you differently, but I don’t think that it is life changing just by changing your looks alone.

I think that Gloria is trying to change her looks because she feels like this is the only thing she has control over in her life. Honestly, Gloria reminded me a little bit of Rose in Titanic, which maybe does not loom well for her future, but I think she is rebelling against those ties that bind – her mama and her now fiancé, especially now that her mother let her in on what is going on with her father, and what is expected of her. Now, for Gloria to be successful, I think she has to have the gonads to follow thru with what she really wants. She needs to be strong enough to stand up to her mother and Bastian to be able to take control of her own life.

Lorraine for me is frustrating. I don’t like her and I feel sorry for her. She is a girl out to ruin herself to fit in. She seems to have little value for herself. Unfortunately, I think part of the problem is this blind love she has for Marcus. She needs to move on and see that she is worthy enough to deserve someone who actually cares for her, and not be caught up in her little fantasies she has about her and Marcus.

Clara changes her looks in order to save herself from her past. This is completely different than why Gloria and Lorraine want to change their looks. But, having guessed correctly the extent of Clara’s downfall in New York, I am surprised that Clara wouldn’t be more proactive in saving Gloria from a similar fate, not that what she ends up doing is wrong, but in that, Clara played with fire and got burned, I would think she would pass some caution on to her cousin. Clara is superficially successful at first -but, in order for her to live her life, with the person she wants, and be the person she wants, she must come to peace with her past.

I really like the dichotomy in this book between the “mothers” and the “daughters”, the first group trying desperately to hold on to a past of decorum that is falling by the wayside, and the second group trying desperately to make those holds that their mothers have crumble even faster. It really is a fascinating time where women were really pushing the boundaries of their own existence and no longer capitulating to the tidy little roles they have for so long, been expected to fill.

[flouncyninja]

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literature wrote:
I don't remember reading any descriptions of Lorraine's or Clara's eyes, just Marcus's blue eyes and it would be out of context for Marcus to be dressed in drag.  Any thoughts?

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While out of context, I think that would be awesome if it turns out it was Marcus in drag.  That would be a whole new twist that I wouldn't have seen coming. 

[Purple_kitty23]

I love the book so far!

To question 1,  I think that most of the characters want to change their image because they are tired of their old lifestyle.  For Clara I think it might be that she has her aunts threat hanging over her head.  Clara is very successful in changing her image because most of the people believe her.  Gloria is not as good at making her 'new self'.  A few people see through the costume.  

To question 2, I think that it depends on the person.  For Gloria it might seem like freedom at the time, but she is still going to have to marry her fiance.  Gloria also may just want to fit in.  For Loraine it's a little different because she does not have the same life that Gloria does.  And for Clara she she can't really do any of that openly with out being sent away.

[ojinaga1]

So far I really like this book.  I like dynamic between Marcus and Clara the best. Can't wait to see what happens next with Jerome and Gloria!

[wheeze]

Just want to say I am LOVING this book!!!

To answer your questions:

1. I think they want to change theirselves because they want to be different and free. No matter what the year is, every young adult girl wants to be everything they aren't. Someone to stand out from them all and be shinned apon. Well, for the Glo and Raine that is.. Clara is a different story. To be honest, I think they aren't being successful. You can't expect this sort of change if you really aren't the person inside. Raine is trying to be a bad girl, but really inside she is sweet and innocent like that rest. That will only destroy you. I do think changing their looks is changing their lives, but honestly I don't think it will be for the better. I think the world will come crashing down on them, and I am excited to read when it does!!!1

2. No, that doesn't make you free. Even with Glo going out to Speakeasys, she is still going home to her mother, lying, and being the sweet girl expect to her to be. Free means free. Do what you want, say what you want, everything and all three girls are missing that.

I cannot wait to see what happens with Gloria and Jerome, they are my favorite so far. Also wondering what is going on with these random notes to Clara, and who they are coming from. I am thinking an ex lover.

[thewanderingjew]

Why do you think that Jerome is the only one who is truly free? He is working in a Speakeasy, pretty much a dead end job, probably because it is the only place he could get a job; he is working for gangsters which pretty much guarantees he has no input in decision making. To me he seems less free than all the other characters who appear to come and go as they please. It is more than his race that is holding him back. He made poor decisions for which he is responsible.

Many of you seem to define freedom as the ability to act with abandon, to do anything one wants to do, but freedom comes at a cost. There are usually certain constraints, rules, laws that inhibit our freedom for the benefit of society. We don't live in a vacuum.

Freedom is a gift which requires work and a sense of responsibility. Many of the characters just thought they should be on the receiving end and were takers. They behaved irresponsibly. Actions have consequences and with maturity, usually, freedom is respected and valued, not abused. We learn that our choices have consequences for others and so we temper our choices so as not to hurt others.

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mommybooknerd wrote:

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MommaBrikz wrote:

So far Vixen is hard to put down.  I have enjoyed reading it and its easy to read.  It touches on several common teen issues, trying to change to fit where you think you belong is the biggest.  Its a book I am excited to see develop both in character and in plot. 

As far as the idea of freedom its something that in your teens you struggle with.  You want to be free of your parents, of school and other things that touch on your life that you have no control over.  You want to be the one to make the rules.  Of all the characters in the book I think Jerome is the only one with real freedom at least in the way he thinks of it, but even in society he's not free.  The color of his skin keeps him from being truly free.

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Well, well put!

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[Vermontcozy]

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girlie0620 wrote:

I like how you wrote that true freedom is not a temporary escape.

I think all the characters are in this state of longing....they are each trying to find out who they really are, as it should be right...they are young. What I think the question is for me, is that these "temporary changes" they are experiencing, are they making a true impact on the characters themselves? I mean...Gloria's dress changes and drinking- is that really making an impact on her...who she is. What about Clara; she is playing a role also but it seems to be impacting her more...fundamentally.

I think the characters are well written and the story great. Can't wait to finish the book.  

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I agree The Characters are so well written..and Each are Complex..So much more to find out...They might not make the best choices..and thats all part of growing.,learning  I am going to give Lorraine the benefit of learning who she is and she will,Gloria is confused  and rightly so..Now learning some things about "Her Fiance"..and she hasn't any Chemistry with him. as well..She is looking for that Love..and Passion....I am reading more..But Never will Post a "Spoiler"......

[vpenning]

Lots of great thoughts people! Enjoying your take on the book. Lots of good observations!

[tweezle]

This book has started out to be a really good read! I found the characters quite amazing that they would be so restless with their lives and want to rebel against what other teens dream about. I can't imagine being a teen and being taking off with my parents car or going to such places. The mindset amazes and fascinates me.

I imagine their freedom comes from being able to control all that they can - which isn't much. As with any teen, hair, body, clothes and language are about the only things they can control, and I guess with that comes their sense of freedom. When Gloria cuts her hair, there's really not much her mother can do - it just has to grow out.

The marriage shocked me and made it a little more clear that all is not perfect in Gloria's life, nor it seems in any of the characters. I'm anxious to see what happens to Gloria when she walks into her dinner party. I wonder if she is going to embarass her mother and herself so badly that the wedding is going to be called off. With her new found job, it is possible she may even call it off herself.

Raine wants Marcus, but I don't see them having a real relationship. I think Claire and Marcus will end up together, but the mysterious "man" - could it be the mystery man she has left behind? I'm not sure if this is a threat or just someone letting her know he has found her and is letting her know he is coming to "rescue" her. Jerome and Gloria? No, I don't think he's really a nice guy, and certainly just a forbidden fruit to Gloria. She may try to push it, but I don't see it working.

I'm really, really looking forward to reading the next part and discussing this all next week. Now that I've posted, I'm off to see what everyone else thinks. I didn't want to read any posts so that they may sway my thinking right now 

[blue_sunshine]

1. I think each character is interested in changing their looks because they are young adults (17-18yrs old) and they are confused and don't know what they really want. They are trying to figure out who they are and who they want to be in the future. They are trying to find themselves. Do they listen to their parents or do they rebel in a way and do what they want? They are dealing with all of these decisions. They are unsure if the way their life is right now is really what they want so they try to change their image and looks to try to fit into something they think they want to be. I think Gloria and Lorraine are in a way, somewhat tired of their persona and doing what people expect of them, so they try to freshen things up a bit and do things they are not supposed to do, like going to a speakeasy, drinking illegally, etc. For Clara, I think since she has lived the flapper lifestyle in New York, she puts on a "Country Clara" act, but I think deep down she really does want to change and not get sucked back into her old ways to the extent she did before. I think changing their looks/image is the easiest, most tangible way the characters are able to quickly try to change themselves, but in the end, changing your looks does not change your lives. It is just a temporary facade. It has to go deeper than just the physical change. I don't think any of the characters are successful in changing their image to change their lives because they didn't want their parents finding out about the illegal stuff they were doing, so when they went back home they went back into the regular roles they are accustomed to. So they were changing their image in secret. Maybe they were temporarily successful in changing their image while at the speakeasy since those strangers at the speakeasy didn't know their past but it'll take more than a few nights at the speakeasy and dressing like a flapper to change their lives.

For me freedom is obtained once you know who you are and what you want in life and you are living that dream. I don't think any of the characters in the novel have obtained freedom in the sense that they do exactly what they want. But then again they are just teens and don't legally have that option. So they try to accomplish freedom by changing their looks by cutting their hair and sneaking off to a speakeasy and drinking illegally. But this does not make them free. They are just breaking some rules temporarily and in secret, so they know what they are doing isn't right, so they can't have that sense of freedom. There were a lot of secrets held in this first reading section so freedom to me doesn't involve secrets. How can you be free if you are hiding something? So I don't think any character is really free.

I am loving Vixen so far! I have never read a book about the flapper lifestyle or the 1920's before reading this book, so I didn't think I'd enjoy it because I wasn't too crazy about the time period, but boy am I so glad I'm reading this book. Surprisingly I am totally crazy about it. It is so addictive, I can't stop reading it! I love the drama, the secrets, the suspense, the characters, everything about it. And the plot pacing is perfect. I love how each main character's plot is so strong on their own and how their own plots mix in with other characters. It's like a tangled web and I'm excited to read how some characters get out of their messes. I can't wait to read what happens next. I know the secrets are building up so I predict that some big drama will unfold in the next section. I don't know exactly what though but I know it will be fun reading!

[Myrtlemay]

How are you enjoying Vixen so far?

I have to say that I am really enjoying Vixen. I have not read many books set in the roaring 20's so it is such a learning experience. I think the book identifies with today’s teenagers pretty well even though they are from a different time period.

Why do you think each of these character is so interested in changing their looks?

I think that these characters feel like society and their families are oppressing them and not allowing them to discover "who they are". Changing your outside appearance gives a false sense of ownership over your life. These teenagers do not have control of their lives. They want to but how can they go against their families? Why are some guys players? They can control the situation. Marcus takes a false ownership of his life by his dating habits.

 Do you think they are successful?

I think my statement above concludes that they are not successful. Gloria, comes back to her life and is set on marrying Bastian. She is just having a last hoorah before she is wed. At least, that is what she is desperately trying to convince herself.

Does changing their looks change their lives?

No and Yes. Gloria gets in trouble with her family. That changes how she is looked at by her mother and fiancé. If they continue to make their own choices, that will lead to their lives changing. No one can keep big secrets like these teenagers are doing.

Does sneaking off to a speakeasy, drinking illegal substances, or cutting one's hair make someone free?

I think there is a trend in my answers! It gives a sense of freedom while you are taking part in the activities. Reality is always waiting for them when the night is through.

What constitutes freedom to you, and do any of the characters we've met so far have it?

Freedom to me is the opportunity to get an education. Choosing how you want to lead your life whether it is being a drug lord or a member of the Peace Corps. There are consequences to every choice, both good and bad. I think they are on there way to freedom, but they are not there. It is hard to be totally free in a society where obligation to family could be seen as a burden. Gloria’s mother has never been “free” and I don’t believe she wants to be free. Does that make how she lives wrong or not free?    

What are your thoughts about the first section of Vixen?

 I am definitely enjoying this book. The whole life style is appealing. It would be so fun to spend a night in the shoes of a flapper. I can’t say that for the life of a Deb.  

 What are your predictions (no spoilers, please!) about what might happen next?

I feel that everything might blow up! Then have to be pieced back together. That is the stereotypical answer. I am not sure that it can be pieced together if it blows up for Gloria. I am looking forward to reading ahead to find out what happens to Gloria, Lorraine, Marcus, Clara, and even Bastian.

Something to note* Page 169, eleventh line down, I think that the name Clara should be Lorraine. I was confused. The sentence is about Clara almost honking her horn. I am not sure. Just a heads up, I am not usually an error spotter so it could be my confusion.

Happy reading my friends!

[KateBrianIsAwe…]

I'm actually starting to really like historical fiction now that Vixen keeps me glued to the pages. For English class we read The Great Gatsby, which was one of my favorite required reading that my class had to read. 

After reading the epilogue and reading the first 200 pages I can't wait to see who the mystery girl is. At first I thought it was Clara because she had some bad business back in New York. I still want to know what happened! 

I like that Marcus might actually be falling for Clara. They just might bring out the best in each other and change the way they are for the better. Downside is that Clara might have an extremely dark past. 

I have a feeling Lorraine is going to have a breakdown and go berserk. Just because she is not getting what she wants. She is going to extreme measures to catch Marcus' attention. Well maybe the society's attention. 

Gloria needs to be more careful of what she is doing. Although love can make people do things they normally wouldn't do. Jerome brings something new and exciting to Gloria's normal everyday life. Plus her boyfriend... man he seems like a jerk. A boring, jerk. Sorry if I'm getting ahead of myself with the chapter discussions. I can't remember exactly where page 144 leaves us. Anyways, I love seeing what everyone else has thought about Vixen so far. 

[smurfyabs]

Vixen has been very easy for me to fall into. It is certainly an enjoyable read!

For Gloria, I feel that changing her look is her way of trying to achieve freedom to make her own choices. Her entire life has been chosen for her. Even her marriage to Bastian was planned, though she didn't know it at the time. Gloria rebels in ways that will bother her mother and Bastian because it proves that she is in control of her own life. I feel that she will find that acting like someone else, rather than yourself, does not give you control. I think singing at the speakeasy is just going to give the control to someone else; the mob. 

I think Clara will become a good friend for Gloria and possibly save her from harm, at least this time.

Lorraine is headed down a dangerous path though. I too, am annoyed by her character. She is so busy trying to shock and impress, she's making a fool of herself. 

I do agree with a previous poster that Marcus seems like the only one with any real freedom. I surely hope he does not end up in drag though...I think that would ruin it for me. 

I can't wait to see what happens next!