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rebecca_herman
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree? How might this impact the characters in this story? How do you feel about our star-crossed lovers chances of success? 

 

I agree love is worth trying for and I hope it works out for them! But I am worried about whether they will be able to stay together. It is difficult for them living in that time period in general as well as possibly being in danger after the end of this book. I can't wait to find out what happens to them!

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sunnyseattle
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

 


rebecca_herman wrote:

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree? How might this impact the characters in this story? How do you feel about our star-crossed lovers chances of success? 

 

I agree love is worth trying for and I hope it works out for them! But I am worried about whether they will be able to stay together. It is difficult for them living in that time period in general as well as possibly being in danger after the end of this book. I can't wait to find out what happens to them!


I agree that love is worth fighting for.  I also know as a realist and as someone who has been there and done that, love does NOT conquer all.  Sad but true, you can love someone and it can still not be worth it.  It doesn't make for the best story but real life is often more boring than the lovely lives we get to loose ourself in the course of some books.

 

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Vermontcozy
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


shmy wrote:

 


babzilla41 wrote:

Sarah-W wrote:

 

I was wondering who would be the first to bring this up! Gloria certainly seems to be feeling this way, even if she has the most at risk in terms of monetary value!

ponkle wrote:


This is totally random but as I read the earlier questions and answers the link from a song sung by Janis Joplin and written by Kris Kristofferson keeps going around in my mind :"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"


 


I  wonder if Gloria and Jerome take the risk to be a couple whether they would, in the end, be miserable due to all of the societal pressures, loss of family and friends, and inability to fit in anywhere.  When you give up everything for someone, you often end up feeling resentful and that ends up seeping into every facet of your relationship, destroying what you started out with.    I also  think that it would be more difficult on Jerome to be in a relationship with Gloria.  Just think about how Bastian referred to him as "boy" and how he treated him.  I certainly don't think that Bastian would be in the minority as far as those matters are concerned.  Sometimes true love is letting someone go because that's what's best for the other person.

 

b


I think this is why I didn't want to become invested in Jerome and Gloria, it would just be really hard for them to be together because of the era. I love the way you phraise it. :smileysad:

 


Jillian has given us such a wonderful book...,,Because we can see as readers,Jillian has put her Heart and Soul into "Vixen".And has opened up such emotional issues,I think we can discuss "Vixen" until "Ingenue "is released....The line from Janis Joplins song is so relevant ,thanks ponkle   I am invested in Gloria and Jeromes relationship more than I thought I would be.. I think with the new Generations that followed mine,I am a baby boomer..Acceptance and understanding of mixed relationships,I like to think that my generation opened some doors,but this is now,,They will be judged harshly. In the 1920's,NY.With Marcus attending Columbia,I think he is a good enough friend of Gloria's to be there for her..So many questions.. BTW Sarah..I think I saw Chicago at least 5 times and on Bway as well...We are now in a 1920's state of mind... Susan

Kindness,I've discovered,is everything in life...Issac Bashevis Singer
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History32
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I assumed that is was Lorraine that told Bastian about Gloria, but I suspected Vera.  But I was very shocked how it all played out.  I did think that Bastian and Vera were working together.  Even knowing that Lorraine didn't rat out Gloria, I still do not like her, but I feel a little sorry for her. 

 

Clara is my favorite character along with Gloria.  I was surprised at what her secret was.  I hope that she and Marcus end up together and happy.  I believe she deserves it.

 

I hope that Gloria and Jerome end up together.  I know that it will be difficult for them but they do love each other and sometimes that is all that you need.

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avalonpriestess
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Sarah-W wrote:

I keep wondering if Lorraine will get her chance at love?

 

_________________________________________________

 

I hope so.  I would love to see Lorraine go to college, grow up some and

fall in love.  I see Lorraine as a go getter, a type of person who will defy

all the odds to succeed.  Perhaps she'll become a professor. We'll just have 

to wait and see.  I have disliked Lorraine all through the book.  I would like

to see her change and become a better person.

 

Donna

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cmmn
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I really like Clara.  I wasn't expecting all that was reveled about her past.  It's hard to like Lorraine.  The way she exposed Clara made it easier to dislike her.  As Clara is rising from her past, Lorraine is falling.  As a romantic, I hope Gloria finds happiness with Jerome.  They won't have it easy.  Vixen has been a very enjoyable pre-holiday read.  A mystery and romance in an historical setting, a perfect match.

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literature
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


Vermontcozy wrote:

shmy wrote:

 


babzilla41 wrote:

Sarah-W wrote:

 

I was wondering who would be the first to bring this up! Gloria certainly seems to be feeling this way, even if she has the most at risk in terms of monetary value!

ponkle wrote:


This is totally random but as I read the earlier questions and answers the link from a song sung by Janis Joplin and written by Kris Kristofferson keeps going around in my mind :"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"


 


I  wonder if Gloria and Jerome take the risk to be a couple whether they would, in the end, be miserable due to all of the societal pressures, loss of family and friends, and inability to fit in anywhere.  When you give up everything for someone, you often end up feeling resentful and that ends up seeping into every facet of your relationship, destroying what you started out with.    I also  think that it would be more difficult on Jerome to be in a relationship with Gloria.  Just think about how Bastian referred to him as "boy" and how he treated him.  I certainly don't think that Bastian would be in the minority as far as those matters are concerned.  Sometimes true love is letting someone go because that's what's best for the other person.

 

b


I think this is why I didn't want to become invested in Jerome and Gloria, it would just be really hard for them to be together because of the era. I love the way you phraise it. :smileysad:

 


Jillian has given us such a wonderful book...,,Because we can see as readers,Jillian has put her Heart and Soul into "Vixen".And has opened up such emotional issues,I think we can discuss "Vixen" until "Ingenue "is released....The line from Janis Joplins song is so relevant ,thanks ponkle   I am invested in Gloria and Jeromes relationship more than I thought I would be.. I think with the new Generations that followed mine,I am a baby boomer..Acceptance and understanding of mixed relationships,I like to think that my generation opened some doors,but this is now,,They will be judged harshly. In the 1920's,NY.With Marcus attending Columbia,I think he is a good enough friend of Gloria's to be there for her..So many questions.. BTW Sarah..I think I saw Chicago at least 5 times and on Bway as well...We are now in a 1920's state of mind... Susan


NYC was nicknamed the "melting pot" when all the immigrants starting arriving at Ellis Island. I'm sure they would have lived in lower Manhattan and looked for work there too, blending in with everyone else.   Depending upon how demonstrative they were with each other in public, they could conceivable get away with being an interracial couple. 

 

Remember Frank Sinatra singing New York, New York and the lines "if you could make it anywhere, you could make it in New York" or something like that.  Susan, not only are we in a 1920's state of mind, but didn't Neil Diamond sing In A New York State of Mind?

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Vermontcozy
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


literature wrote:

Vermontcozy wrote:

shmy wrote:

 


babzilla41 wrote:

Sarah-W wrote:

 

I was wondering who would be the first to bring this up! Gloria certainly seems to be feeling this way, even if she has the most at risk in terms of monetary value!

ponkle wrote:


This is totally random but as I read the earlier questions and answers the link from a song sung by Janis Joplin and written by Kris Kristofferson keeps going around in my mind :"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"


 


I  wonder if Gloria and Jerome take the risk to be a couple whether they would, in the end, be miserable due to all of the societal pressures, loss of family and friends, and inability to fit in anywhere.  When you give up everything for someone, you often end up feeling resentful and that ends up seeping into every facet of your relationship, destroying what you started out with.    I also  think that it would be more difficult on Jerome to be in a relationship with Gloria.  Just think about how Bastian referred to him as "boy" and how he treated him.  I certainly don't think that Bastian would be in the minority as far as those matters are concerned.  Sometimes true love is letting someone go because that's what's best for the other person.

 

b


I think this is why I didn't want to become invested in Jerome and Gloria, it would just be really hard for them to be together because of the era. I love the way you phraise it. :smileysad:

 


Jillian has given us such a wonderful book...,,Because we can see as readers,Jillian has put her Heart and Soul into "Vixen".And has opened up such emotional issues,I think we can discuss "Vixen" until "Ingenue "is released....The line from Janis Joplins song is so relevant ,thanks ponkle   I am invested in Gloria and Jeromes relationship more than I thought I would be.. I think with the new Generations that followed mine,I am a baby boomer..Acceptance and understanding of mixed relationships,I like to think that my generation opened some doors,but this is now,,They will be judged harshly. In the 1920's,NY.With Marcus attending Columbia,I think he is a good enough friend of Gloria's to be there for her..So many questions.. BTW Sarah..I think I saw Chicago at least 5 times and on Bway as well...We are now in a 1920's state of mind... Susan


NYC was nicknamed the "melting pot" when all the immigrants starting arriving at Ellis Island. I'm sure they would have lived in lower Manhattan and looked for work there too, blending in with everyone else.   Depending upon how demonstrative they were with each other in public, they could conceivable get away with being an interracial couple. 

 

Remember Frank Sinatra singing New York, New York and the lines "if you could make it anywhere, you could make it in New York" or something like that.  Susan, not only are we in a 1920's state of mind, but didn't Neil Diamond sing In A New York State of Mind?



literature wrote:

Vermontcozy wrote:

shmy wrote:

 


babzilla41 wrote:

Sarah-W wrote:

 

I was wondering who would be the first to bring this up! Gloria certainly seems to be feeling this way, even if she has the most at risk in terms of monetary value!

ponkle wrote:


This is totally random but as I read the earlier questions and answers the link from a song sung by Janis Joplin and written by Kris Kristofferson keeps going around in my mind :"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose"


 


I  wonder if Gloria and Jerome take the risk to be a couple whether they would, in the end, be miserable due to all of the societal pressures, loss of family and friends, and inability to fit in anywhere.  When you give up everything for someone, you often end up feeling resentful and that ends up seeping into every facet of your relationship, destroying what you started out with.    I also  think that it would be more difficult on Jerome to be in a relationship with Gloria.  Just think about how Bastian referred to him as "boy" and how he treated him.  I certainly don't think that Bastian would be in the minority as far as those matters are concerned.  Sometimes true love is letting someone go because that's what's best for the other person.

 

b


I think this is why I didn't want to become invested in Jerome and Gloria, it would just be really hard for them to be together because of the era. I love the way you phraise it. :smileysad:

 


Jillian has given us such a wonderful book...,,Because we can see as readers,Jillian has put her Heart and Soul into "Vixen".And has opened up such emotional issues,I think we can discuss "Vixen" until "Ingenue "is released....The line from Janis Joplins song is so relevant ,thanks ponkle   I am invested in Gloria and Jeromes relationship more than I thought I would be.. I think with the new Generations that followed mine,I am a baby boomer..Acceptance and understanding of mixed relationships,I like to think that my generation opened some doors,but this is now,,They will be judged harshly. In the 1920's,NY.With Marcus attending Columbia,I think he is a good enough friend of Gloria's to be there for her..So many questions.. BTW Sarah..I think I saw Chicago at least 5 times and on Bway as well...We are now in a 1920's state of mind... Susan


NYC was nicknamed the "melting pot" when all the immigrants starting arriving at Ellis Island. I'm sure they would have lived in lower Manhattan and looked for work there too, blending in with everyone else.   Depending upon how demonstrative they were with each other in public, they could conceivable get away with being an interracial couple. 

 

Remember Frank Sinatra singing New York, New York and the lines "if you could make it anywhere, you could make it in New York" or something like that.  Susan, not only are we in a 1920's state of mind, but didn't Neil Diamond sing In A New York State of Mind?


Hi literature. and All....My Grandparents arrived on Ellis island,fortunately they had family in Brooklyn and also Kansas City,,Such a remarkable time..Being a NewYorker.a long time ago.but its still in my blood as some here can relate to..My vivid and Wonderful Memories are all in Manhattan...always a History Lesson....Now I have "New York ,New York in my head. lol.If Neil Diamond did sing it..I'm not sure..But can do a itunes search... I lived in Manhattan various area's and went to school there as well..Every Street has its History and Ghosts...Especially downtown...I hope some readers explore the 1920's.and 1930's..Jillian must know we Are Her Fan Base  It all starts here..So happy Paul brought you to FirstLook.  It intoduced so many of us to each other"Vixen" did that ;;Not that we are obsessed,   :  )but I must admit..I think we are so taken with your"Vixen" .This is your Thread Jillian  all of it The Whole Board actually.. I hope you visit us ..when you can..I won't say Goodbye...One of The Best FirstLooks..I have been involved in..Will check out RandomHouse and see what they have up on your site,,.Later Susan .   http://www.randomhouse.com/teens                    http://www.theflapperbooks.com     Hope these work...

Kindness,I've discovered,is everything in life...Issac Bashevis Singer
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erica11
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I completely agree with Clara's statement.  Love is a gamble, but is well worth the risk, even if it hurts.  I think some of the characters will be strong enough to make love work, but others, I don't think so.  Gloria and Jerome have a chance, but it will take a lot of strength and perserverence to beat the odds before them.

None of the revelations surprised me, especially about Clara being pregnant.  I figured that was an obvious plot twist.  I like Clara even more, because she owned up to her past and seems the most real.  Everyone else feels too fake.

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tweezle
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

WOW!! It was almost impossible for me to stop at the end of this week's reading. I so wanted to continue and see what happens after Lorraine's revelations.

 

Poor Clara. I really have grown to like her and want her to have a lasting relationship with Marcus, but now... I wonder how he's going to react. Keeping my fingers crossed that he really means to allow the past to be the past.

 

Gloria and Jerome - that one's doomed. The time's just not ready for a bi-racial relationship plus the social standing is another big mark against them. I don't see this one panning out at all.

 

Bastian - OOOHHH!!! I don't like that man. The same goes for Clara's old boyfriend. Both need to get together and run off to NY. They'd make fantastic business partners. :smileymad:

 

Lorraine is just pathetic. No matter what, she's looking worse and worse. She can't redeem herself when she's being cruel. I know she's trying to look like she's not so bad, but it's not working.

 

Who revealed Gloria's singing at the club didn't come as a surprise. I had a feeling - especially after the remarks about the dress and Gloria being someone else.

 

GREAT STORY!!! I can't wait to continue reading.

“Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are.” - Mason Cooley
**3 NOOKS with 3 separate accounts in one household.**
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Jasmyn9
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree?

 

I think there are many things that people should and would do for love.  But soemtimes we have to remember the good old saying "love is blind" and realize that the person we love might not be worth the everything we are willing to give them.

 

We also learn that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secret to Bastian, even as she does expose Clara's reasons for New York. Did either of these revelations surprise you? Did they change the way you feel about any of the characters?

 

It does not surprise me that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secrets.  One of her main goals is to remain Gloria's only "real" friend and telling Bastian is not the way to succeed in that department.  She exposed Clara's secrets only to try and push her away from what Lorraine wanted.

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mommybooknerd
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree?

 

I really feel like love is having no regrets and loving with all you have.  There are lessons even if things turn out badly.  You can learn what you are willing to accept out of a relationship and things that you will never tolerate again.  I love the saying "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".  I think loving anyone or anything there is risk of harm.  Bad things happen all the time but you only live once and I want to love to the fullest extent my life has to offer!

 

 

We also learn that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secret to Bastian, even as she does expose Clara's reasons for New York. Did either of these revelations surprise you? Did they change the way you feel about any of the characters?

 

I was a bit surprised about Lorraine not being the one to blurt out Gloria's secret but it does not change how I feel about her, because frankly I like her.   Like I said in another post, all relationships have some level of envy and it is what you do with it that determines your character.  Lorraine made some mistakes and let her jealousy get to her but she loves Gloria and really wants what is best for her!

 

 

-Em

You are the author of your own life story.
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mommybooknerd
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Nothing left to lose?


Sarah-W wrote:

I just found this passage from the section where Gloria goes to visit Jerome to tell him how she feels:

 

Jerome: "You've already lied to me once. What makes you think I would trust you?"

 

Gloria: "Because before, I had everything to lose," she said. "But now that I've lost everything there's nothing left to hide."


LOVE LOVE LOVE that section of the book!

You are the author of your own life story.
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Tarri
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

 


Sarah-W wrote:

 

I hope to discuss this topic more when we get to the end of the book, but here are my thoughts:
* How much have things changed with regard to attitudes to race then vs now?
* Do you think things would have changed if people didn't take these kinds of risks?

Very interesting questions, Sarah. 
It has taken so much time for the majority of people to change their attitudes in regards to race and we still have so far to go, in my opinion.  For example, people are still asking to see President Obama's birth certificate, which I don't think would have ever become an issue if he was not half black.   Still I am heartened to see that race is not an issue with the young people of today. Jerome and Gloria would not have to think twice about being seen together today, but  it took about 50 years. 
All progress comes with risks.  Someone has to fight the status quo  for anything to change. 

 

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Lildove3
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Wow..lights,camera and action,part II has really spinned out of control. This part was

definately a thrill. Can't wait to finish the novel. I hope the best for jerome and gloria,for their

idea of starting a new,but in that era was going to be tough. Lorraine is definately a horrible

person,maybe leaving her home town would be a smart idea. As far as,gloriia's fiance she needs to dump him real quick,he's a dirty dog. Clara and Marcus will be just fine now that there's absolutely no dark secrets left to tell,thanks to Lorraine. They only thing that really surprised me was the miscarriage that clara went through,other than that,it did not change my feelings about the characters.:smileywink:

 

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Jillian-Larkin
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355



Hi literature. and All....My Grandparents arrived on Ellis island,fortunately they had family in Brooklyn and also Kansas City,,Such a remarkable time..Being a NewYorker.a long time ago.but its still in my blood as some here can relate to..My vivid and Wonderful Memories are all in Manhattan...always a History Lesson....Now I have "New York ,New York in my head. lol.If Neil Diamond did sing it..I'm not sure..But can do a itunes search... I lived in Manhattan various area's and went to school there as well..Every Street has its History and Ghosts...Especially downtown...I hope some readers explore the 1920's.and 1930's..Jillian must know we Are Her Fan Base  It all starts here..So happy Paul brought you to FirstLookIt intoduced so many of us to each other"Vixen" did that ;;Not that we are obsessed,   :  )but I must admit..I think we are so taken with your"Vixen" .This is your Thread Jillian  all of it The Whole Board actually.. I hope you visit us ..when you can..I won't say Goodbye...One of The Best FirstLooks..I have been involved in..Will check out RandomHouse and see what they have up on your site,,.Later Susan .   http://www.randomhouse.com/teens                    http://www.theflapperbooks.com     Hope these work...



Hi everyone! I can't repost everything on this thread so I just reposted Susan's last comment. I've so enjoyed following this entire thread--and of course just listened to "Me and Bobby McGee" by Janis JoplinI actually got a tiny bit teary-eyed reading all your insights about Gloria and Jerome, and New York City. Before I ever felt like I had the ability to describe anything visually or string a plot together, writing was all about the characters. So to watch all of you form the same attachments to the characters that I have while writing ... it may be the most amazing feeling in the world.

 

And New York really is just one big history lesson waiting to be learned. I'm so grateful that much of my research for INGENUE has been as easy as taking the subway to Brooklyn Heights and walking across the Brooklyn Bridge, or wandering around the places I go all the time in Manhattan--my old Greenwich Village stomping ground near NYU, Herald Square, Grand Central Station--and wondering what they must have been like almost a century ago. I've wanted to live in New York since I was a little girl and I'm so glad life's worked out in such a way that it's been possible for me to do so.

 

Thanks so much, you guys!

 

-Jillian

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Purple_kitty23
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

My favorite charecter is clara.  She changes the most in the book.  At the beggining, she still is thinking about new york but towards the end, she changes.  I almost cried after lorraine hummiliated Clara like that.  She had no right to do that.  I was very surprised at who told Bastian.

Purple_kitty23 : )
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14abetancourt
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I'm surprised that Lorraine was not the one who spilled the beans about Gloria's secret. However, I still feel that if the opportunity came again she would stop at nothing to get what she wants. Clara's big secret was definitely a shocker! My mind was on a completely different track! I am pleasantly surprised with how Clara turned out in the end. Her character was always strong and independent but her newly discovered outlook after falling for Marcus, in my eyes, is definitely more admirable than her attitude in the beginning of the novel.

 

As for Clara's opinion on the chance love deserves, I agree. However, her advice will not be easy to follow in Gloria's situation. If her and Jerome truly love each other they will be able to live with the complications that come with their relationship but even with love, it hard to turn the other cheek. No matter what, people in their society will not approve of their relationship and it will be a struggle to stay together. As for Clara and Marcus, I really hope they find what they have both been looking for in each other!      

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hessteria
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I admire Clara for telling Marcus the truth. It shows that she is finding herself and learning to trust. I have grown to really like Clara and cannot wait for the next book. I knew that Marcus would fall in love with her, but was impressed with his ability to follow his heart even as the truth is revealed to all. 

 

I worry about how Gloria's decision to follow Jerome to NY will survive that theory.  I see a very dangerous future ahead with the Mob after him. Gloria is sure to have a difficult time with her change of lifestyle and constant danger.  I think Jerome may push her away because of his fear for her life.  I think their decision to be together will be filled with regret and fear. I wonder if they will survive... litterally.

 

Lorraine hasn't surprised me throught the whole book, but I do love reading about her.  She is interesting because she really doens't see herself the way others do.

I loved the surprise ending, it left me wanting to know what will happen next. The only character that truly surprised me at the end was Vera.  I do feel bad for her though. She thought she was saving her brother. How awful to live with that.

Looking forward to the next book... Bring it on!

 

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scientistsoltero
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Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

What Lorraine did was very uncool. That girl really needs some attention and it is not only because her parents are not around because look at Marcus, he is totally fine (and I love his interactions with Clara, so cute!).

 

Clara is my favorite character now, the first time you read about her you have a very different perception of what she really is.She is so right about love and hope she uses what she said about love to Gloria with Marcus, he and Clara make a very pretty couple!