Since 1997, you’ve been coming to BarnesandNoble.com to discuss everything from Stephen King to writing to Harry Potter. You’ve made our site more than a place to discover your next book: you’ve made it a community. But like all things internet, BN.com is growing and changing. On May 1, we’re saying goodbye to our community message boards—but that doesn’t mean we won’t still be a place for adventurous readers to connect and discover.

Now, you can explore the most exciting new titles (and remember the classics) at the Barnes & Noble Book Blog. Check out conversations with authors like Jeff VanderMeer and Gary Shteyngart at the B&N Review, and browse write-ups of the best in literary fiction. Come to our Facebook page to weigh in on what it means to be a book nerd. Browse digital deals on the NOOK blog, tweet about books with us,or self-publish your latest novella with NOOK Press. And for those of you looking for support for your NOOK, the NOOK Support Forums will still be here.

We will continue to provide you with books that make you turn pages well past midnight, discover new worlds, and reunite with old friends. And we hope that you’ll continue to tell us how you’re doing, what you’re reading, and what books mean to you.

Reply
Inspired Bibliophile
Vermontcozy
Posts: 5,276
Registered: ‎10-20-2008
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


Vermontcozy wrote:

Lil_Irish_Lass wrote:

Once I started, I couldn't put Vixen down and now I'm impatiently waiting to be able to read the next book in the series so I can found out what happens!!!

 

I'll be honest, I signed up for this book because it was free, I didn't think I was going to really like it, but man was I wrong! The story sucked me in on page one and even now that I've finished it still has me in it's grasp.

 

The characters were well developed and I could easily picture them jumping off the pages and in to real life. My only critique would be that they act and carry themselves MUCH older than their ages and I don't know how realistic that would be for that era and their age group.

 

My favorite story line is Clara and Marcus. Both are judged by their past actions, which aren't who they truly are. It seems fitting that they are finally able to be themselves only around each other.


Glad you were wrong LOL and liked" Vixen " It really was a Wonderful surprise,,And Now we have "Ingenue" to look forward to.and hopefully more of the The "Flapper Series Books by Jillian.".As young as The Girls are,they are able to portray themselves as "Very Mature" they think ,young ladies..They were also  exposed early on to a Lavish Lifestyle..Of course except for Clara..But  she is a fast learner..  ;  ) Such a wonderful era ''Jillian knows it so well"..Next week although many have finished ,we still have lots to discuss.Always a Cliffhanger.!!!..See you then....Susan...


This is The Original Post from Lil Irish Lass..Thank you..

Kindness,I've discovered,is everything in life...Issac Bashevis Singer
Contributor
haysel13
Posts: 9
Registered: ‎10-10-2010

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

[ Edited ]

Roaring Love!

Part two of VIXEN, Speak Low -- A.K.A. Roaoring Love, was definitely all about love; Falling in love, and falling out of love in the Roaring 20s. Case in point, I have to say I do not believe that there are no regrets with love. I also think it is important to love in your lifetime and not be scared or embarrassed to love. But I do say that even if you really love someone that you can still harbor regrets.  Take for instance a couple that fell in love at a young age and grew up to fast – having children or getting married too young – while they may truly love each other one or both persons may regret not doing certain things – graduating from college, traveling or just going out and having fun while they were young -- or rushing into the life they willfully chose instead of waiting a few more years.

 

However, I do agree with Clara when she stated that even if the love turns out badly it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll regret it. For one example, falling in love with the “wrong” person – whether wrong entirely or just wrong for you – can teach a person a lot about themselves. Self evolution can be a monumental result of falling in love with the wrong person – or any person for that matter. Falling in love can reveal what qualities you desire and deserve in a companion, make you grateful for the people you have in your life who already love you and those who will possibly love you in the future. The experience can make you stronger, as well as better equipped to handle loving someone – good or bad – or being loved by someone the next time around. But most of all, falling in love can teach you one of the most essential lessons on love: how to love yourself.

 

With all this talk about VIXEN love I just realized that Clara and Marcus are my favorite love couple. The ex-playgirl falls for the playboy. So does Clara falling for yet another playboy, Marcus, show readers that she hasn’t indeed changed? Is that a bad thing? Vixen love couple number two is – drum roll please -- ... Jerome and Gloria. They take second place since I am pos-i-lute-ly interested in seeing where their prohibited love will lead them. “Romeo and Juliet” finally took hold of their lives and didn’t continue to let ignorant society, controlling family or disproving friends dictate who they should love, what they should do about their love, where and when they can love and why they should or shouldn’t love the person they love. I think Jerome and Gloria deserve laurels for that!

 

On that note, so Lorraine didn’t spill the beans to Bastian about Gloria’s secret. I have to say, I am ... not surprised. While Lorraine can be a bit on the distasteful side I never suspected her of betraying Gloria beyond her kiss with Bastian. She was absolutely distraught about that kiss so I had my doubts about her ratting Gloria out and she genuinely seems to want Gloria to be her best friend again – not break ties. Besides although I think Lorraine may be a villain in the making she is still in the developmental stages.

 

Memorable Quotes:

 

Clara and Marcus:

“‘Hello there, handsome,’ Clara said, tugging at his silk tie.

 He kissed her on the cheek. ‘Don’t think I didn’t see your little pose over there, Miss Clara. Did they teach you in Pennsylvania how to make those sultry eyes for the camera?’

‘Marcus! Don’t you dare say that dirty word here,’ she said, taking a sip of his seltzer.

‘I wasn’t aware that sultry was a dirty word.’

‘I meant Pennsylvania.” – Page 345

 

Always,

Haysel

 

PLEASE BECOME A FOLLOWER OF MY BLOG [The Tattered Page] & SPREAD THE WORD:

http://the-tatteredpage.blogspot.com/ 

Author
Jillian-Larkin
Posts: 96
Registered: ‎10-11-2010

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


literature wrote:

 


Jillian-Larkin wrote:


Hi literature. and All....My Grandparents arrived on Ellis island,fortunately they had family in Brooklyn and also Kansas City,,Such a remarkable time..Being a NewYorker.a long time ago.but its still in my blood as some here can relate to..My vivid and Wonderful Memories are all in Manhattan...always a History Lesson....Now I have "New York ,New York in my head. lol.If Neil Diamond did sing it..I'm not sure..But can do a itunes search... I lived in Manhattan various area's and went to school there as well..Every Street has its History and Ghosts...Especially downtown...I hope some readers explore the 1920's.and 1930's..Jillian must know we Are Her Fan Base  It all starts here..So happy Paul brought you to FirstLookIt intoduced so many of us to each other"Vixen" did that ;;Not that we are obsessed,   :  )but I must admit..I think we are so taken with your"Vixen" .This is your Thread Jillian  all of it The Whole Board actually.. I hope you visit us ..when you can..I won't say Goodbye...One of The Best FirstLooks..I have been involved in..Will check out RandomHouse and see what they have up on your site,,.Later Susan .   http://www.randomhouse.com/teens                    http://www.theflapperbooks.com     Hope these work...



Hi everyone! I can't repost everything on this thread so I just reposted Susan's last comment. I've so enjoyed following this entire thread--and of course just listened to "Me and Bobby McGee" by Janis JoplinI actually got a tiny bit teary-eyed reading all your insights about Gloria and Jerome, and New York City. Before I ever felt like I had the ability to describe anything visually or string a plot together, writing was all about the characters. So to watch all of you form the same attachments to the characters that I have while writing ... it may be the most amazing feeling in the world.

 

And New York really is just one big history lesson waiting to be learned. I'm so grateful that much of my research for INGENUE has been as easy as taking the subway to Brooklyn Heights and walking across the Brooklyn Bridge, or wandering around the places I go all the time in Manhattan--my old Greenwich Village stomping ground near NYU, Herald Square, Grand Central Station--and wondering what they must have been like almost a century ago. I've wanted to live in New York since I was a little girl and I'm so glad life's worked out in such a way that it's been possible for me to do so.

 

Thanks so much, you guys!

 

-Jillian


 

Hi Jillian,

Talking about getting teary eyed.  That's the effect your post had on me.  I'm very happy for you.  We all must be some ego boost for you!  Talk about nuturing!  Did we give you enough confidence to go on and on with your series?  I saw the cover for Ingenue and WOW. 

 

Talking about New York being one big history lesson.  I go back quite a few years and I remember the trolley and being in awe when riding in it.  I remember coal being delivered so we would have heat, the sharpener truck coming around to sharpen our knives and the ice man delivering ice for our ice boxes.  I remember watching the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway being built.  I don't know if you've been in Manhattan recently but the defunct high line (train) that used to make the flour and grain deliveries from midtown to Chelsea Market where Nabisco did all their baking early 1900's has now been made into an elevated park.  Park benches, trees, grass, tons of wild flowers and a photo opt haven for bridal pictures.  A lot of the original track is still there and very inconspicuously worked into the walkways.  If you look real carefully, you will see it.  There's a small tunnel you walk through that has a different bell that rings every minute and then on the o'clock all 60 of them ring together.  What an experience!  A number of years ago when Barnes & Noble had BNU (Barnes & Noble University) there was a class conducted by David Dunbar about how the people shaped and formed NYC.  We used his 1,000 page book, Empire City, New York through the Centuries for reading and discussions.  It spanned about 400 years and some very amazing reads.  The Ric Burns PBS series New York:  A Documentary Film is another very good source.

Sheila


Hi Sheila,

Yes, this has been such a great, nuturing experience for me. Being a debut author, I'm so new to the experience of speaking with readers who aren't my close friends or family. So it's pretty nerve-wracking ... thank you all for helping me realize how incredibly fun the experience is as well! And I adore the INGENUE cover, at least as much as I love the VIXEN cover if not more so. I'm a little biased since I think cloche hats are awesome.
And I love the High Line! I actually live in Brooklyn so I've been to the park a few times. It was such a fantastic idea to preserve that piece of history in such a way. Going to Chelsea Market for lunch then taking a walk on the High Line was one of my favorite ways to spend the day this past summer. I will have to look into the sources you mentioned--I'm always eager to learn more about this amazing city!
-Jillian
Wordsmith
literature
Posts: 499
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

 


Jillian-Larkin wrote:

literature wrote:

 


Jillian-Larkin wrote:


Hi literature. and All....My Grandparents arrived on Ellis island,fortunately they had family in Brooklyn and also Kansas City,,Such a remarkable time..Being a NewYorker.a long time ago.but its still in my blood as some here can relate to..My vivid and Wonderful Memories are all in Manhattan...always a History Lesson....Now I have "New York ,New York in my head. lol.If Neil Diamond did sing it..I'm not sure..But can do a itunes search... I lived in Manhattan various area's and went to school there as well..Every Street has its History and Ghosts...Especially downtown...I hope some readers explore the 1920's.and 1930's..Jillian must know we Are Her Fan Base  It all starts here..So happy Paul brought you to FirstLookIt intoduced so many of us to each other"Vixen" did that ;;Not that we are obsessed,   :  )but I must admit..I think we are so taken with your"Vixen" .This is your Thread Jillian  all of it The Whole Board actually.. I hope you visit us ..when you can..I won't say Goodbye...One of The Best FirstLooks..I have been involved in..Will check out RandomHouse and see what they have up on your site,,.Later Susan .   http://www.randomhouse.com/teens                    http://www.theflapperbooks.com     Hope these work...



Hi everyone! I can't repost everything on this thread so I just reposted Susan's last comment. I've so enjoyed following this entire thread--and of course just listened to "Me and Bobby McGee" by Janis JoplinI actually got a tiny bit teary-eyed reading all your insights about Gloria and Jerome, and New York City. Before I ever felt like I had the ability to describe anything visually or string a plot together, writing was all about the characters. So to watch all of you form the same attachments to the characters that I have while writing ... it may be the most amazing feeling in the world.

 

And New York really is just one big history lesson waiting to be learned. I'm so grateful that much of my research for INGENUE has been as easy as taking the subway to Brooklyn Heights and walking across the Brooklyn Bridge, or wandering around the places I go all the time in Manhattan--my old Greenwich Village stomping ground near NYU, Herald Square, Grand Central Station--and wondering what they must have been like almost a century ago. I've wanted to live in New York since I was a little girl and I'm so glad life's worked out in such a way that it's been possible for me to do so.

 

Thanks so much, you guys!

 

-Jillian


 

Hi Jillian,

Talking about getting teary eyed.  That's the effect your post had on me.  I'm very happy for you.  We all must be some ego boost for you!  Talk about nuturing!  Did we give you enough confidence to go on and on with your series?  I saw the cover for Ingenue and WOW. 

 

Talking about New York being one big history lesson.  I go back quite a few years and I remember the trolley and being in awe when riding in it.  I remember coal being delivered so we would have heat, the sharpener truck coming around to sharpen our knives and the ice man delivering ice for our ice boxes.  I remember watching the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway being built.  I don't know if you've been in Manhattan recently but the defunct high line (train) that used to make the flour and grain deliveries from midtown to Chelsea Market where Nabisco did all their baking early 1900's has now been made into an elevated park.  Park benches, trees, grass, tons of wild flowers and a photo opt haven for bridal pictures.  A lot of the original track is still there and very inconspicuously worked into the walkways.  If you look real carefully, you will see it.  There's a small tunnel you walk through that has a different bell that rings every minute and then on the o'clock all 60 of them ring together.  What an experience!  A number of years ago when Barnes & Noble had BNU (Barnes & Noble University) there was a class conducted by David Dunbar about how the people shaped and formed NYC.  We used his 1,000 page book, Empire City, New York through the Centuries for reading and discussions.  It spanned about 400 years and some very amazing reads.  The Ric Burns PBS series New York:  A Documentary Film is another very good source.

Sheila


Hi Sheila,

Yes, this has been such a great, nuturing experience for me. Being a debut author, I'm so new to the experience of speaking with readers who aren't my close friends or family. So it's pretty nerve-wracking ... thank you all for helping me realize how incredibly fun the experience is as well! And I adore the INGENUE cover, at least as much as I love the VIXEN cover if not more so. I'm a little biased since I think cloche hats are awesome.
And I love the High Line! I actually live in Brooklyn so I've been to the park a few times. It was such a fantastic idea to preserve that piece of history in such a way. Going to Chelsea Market for lunch then taking a walk on the High Line was one of my favorite ways to spend the day this past summer. I will have to look into the sources you mentioned--I'm always eager to learn more about this amazing city!
-Jillian

 

Hi Jillian,

Another great book to read, and what really started me on delving into the history of Manhattan, is Forever by Pete Hamil.  Don't be put off by the size of the book, it's an easy read and just so fact filled with trivia about how and why Manhattan evolved.  The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto recognizes and praises the Dutch, who laid the foundation for NYC and helped shaped American culture.  Have fun!

Sheila

Contributor
emperatrix
Posts: 23
Registered: ‎11-03-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I think Gloria has a very optimistic outlook for the future, but I don't think things will be the least bit easy despite her belief or Clara's conviction that love is worth any risk. Gloria seems very young and naive, her upbringing hasn't set her up for disappointment; I don't think that her past will be as easy to overcome when she tries to adapt to her new life. 

 

Lorraine remains one of the characters that I liked the least, so my feelings towards her did not change. Actually, I think my feelings towards the characters were cemented by the end of the first part. I still liked Clara and Marcus, but did not really connect with the others.

Gricel

things-she-read.org
New User
icecreamfairy8
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎04-12-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I agree that if you love somebody, then you'll have no regrets.  It reminds me of the quote "It is better to have loved and lost, then to have never loved before." But in this case, I don't think Gloria really loved Jerome.  It's all about her rebelling against her family and society that she's all caught up in the delusion of love.  I would say Clara was really in love more than Gloria was.  And especially during this era, their love wouldn't go far. 

 

And as far as the revelations go, none of it really surprised me.  I actually predicted all of it in Part 1.  All of these archetypes have been done before, so it wasn't really original.  This book reminded me of a 1920's-30's version of Gossip Girl. 

Frequent Contributor
Sheltiemama
Posts: 107
Registered: ‎06-01-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

No, I don't agree with what Clara tells Gloria, especially at their age.

 

I never thought that Lorraine told Bastian about Gloria's secret. Doing what she did to Clara was just plain cruel. I'm rooting for Clara more than any other character in the book.

Moderator
Sarah-W
Posts: 526
Registered: ‎10-29-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

 

I agree, I love reading about Lorraine, too. And I hope there will be lots more Vera in the next book!

hessteria wrote:

 

Lorraine hasn't surprised me throught the whole book, but I do love reading about her.  She is interesting because she really doens't see herself the way others do.

I loved the surprise ending, it left me wanting to know what will happen next. The only character that truly surprised me at the end was Vera.  I do feel bad for her though. She thought she was saving her brother. How awful to live with that.

Looking forward to the next book... Bring it on!

 


 

Contributor
JGriffin
Posts: 6
Registered: ‎10-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I'm not so sure about the having no regrets part.  Two people could love each other more than anything else, but if the circumstances of life keep bringing them down, eventually it could still tear them apart.  Looking back, they just might have a few feelings of regret about choosing the hard road.  But then again, that hard road might just make them stronger, and bring them even closer together.

 

I'm really hoping that Gloria and Jerome are able to make a happy life together.  I think they love each other, but the ways of the world in this tiem are going to make their road to happiness tremendously difficult.

 

I was slightly surprised by the revelation of Clara's pregnancy.  That thought had never crossed my mind at all. I felt sorry for her though.  I'm also hoping that her and Marcus stick together.

 

I like Lorraine even less now than I did before. She's just not a very likeable character.

Inspired Contributor
nymazz
Posts: 81
Registered: ‎09-14-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355


Sarah-W wrote:

 

Part II starts with a quotation from Zelda Fitzgerald, "I don't want to live, I want to love first, and live incidentally." Love is a major theme for this part of the book. Gloria admits her feelings to Jerome and they start making plans to runaway together. Clara tells Marcus about part of her past. And Lorraine reveals Clara's secret to everyone---including the press---at Gloria's engagement party.

 

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree? How might this impact the characters in this story? How do you feel about our star-crossed lovers chances of success? 

 

I would agree, if the love is mutual it is definitely worth fighting for. Even with everything they have working against them, I still think she is better off trying to make a life with someone she loves and who loves her back, then settling for a life with Bastian. I think Gloria and Jerome will have many obstacles, but if they are true to each other they can last. 

 

We also learn that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secret to Bastian, even as she does expose Clara's reasons for New York. Did either of these revelations surprise you? Did they change the way you feel about any of the characters?
I was surprised Vera was the one who told Bastian.  I can't believe she would trust Bastian with that information or how he would handle the situation considering his privileged position in the community(and his ego), how would it look if anyone found out that his fiance left him for a Black man?  If I was Vera I would have been much more worried about Bastians reaction and what he would do to cover it up than be worried about Gloria breaking her brothers heart.
I wasn't surprised that Lorraine was so hurtful to Clara.  Lorraine was jealous of Clara's relationship to Marcus and I think she was even jealous of Clara's relationship with Gloria. I think she couldn't bring herself to really hurt Gloria, they are best friends, almost like sisters. So I think her next best target would be Clara who in Lorraine's eye was stealing Marcus from her.
 

 


 

Reading gives us someplace to go when we have to stay where we are. -Mason Cooley-
Frequent Contributor
KateBrianIsAwesome
Posts: 115
Registered: ‎08-19-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree? How might this impact the characters in this story? How do you feel about our star-crossed lovers chances of success? I guess I agree with the Clara's quote. If you do love someone you should not have regrets. Even though I have finished the book already at the time the lovers chances of success was a so-so situation. 

 

We also learn that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secret to Bastian, even as she does expose Clara's reasons for New York. Did either of these revelations surprise you? Did they change the way you feel about any of the characters? I kind of thought that maybe she accidentally told Bastian while she was drunk at his house. Lorraine seems desperate, but I doubt she'd really try to ruin her Gloria's life. I found Clara's pregnancy a shocker. There was no hint at all that that was the thing Clara kept referring too. Unless there is more to the story. I still feel bad for all the characters. 

Reading can only make you more happy and smarter. :smileyhappy:

Visit my blog at http://teenbibliophile.blogspot.com/

- Mallory
Contributor
taraw4
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎10-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I think pretty much everything has already been said.  I thought the book was really good and a fun read.  I was surprised as most were about who had told on Gloria.  Such a minor character role and it was unexpected to me.  I also liked the relationship between Gloria and Jerome and will be interested to see where that leads in the next book.  I continued to be somewhat annoyed by Lorraine's character as the book went on, but it is always good to have characters you can love and ones you don't like so much!  I was amused as I read the end to find how all the characters paths would lead them to New York. It became obvious that is what would happen and I found it funny as it went along.  Also looking forward to seeing what happens for Marcus and Clara in New York! 

Contributor
Myrtlemay
Posts: 8
Registered: ‎10-05-2010
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Clara tells Gloria, "I'm no more expert on the subject than any other girl. But this much I know: Love is worth everything. If you really love someone, you'll have no regrets. Even if it turns out badly." Do you agree?
Well, I don't know about making such bold statements. I don't know if I agree or not. I have not had many experiences with that sort of love. :smileysad:
How might this impact the characters in this story? How do you feel about our star-crossed lovers chances of success? 
Teens are always will to put everything on the line for love. I think in the 20's a love like the one Glo and Jerome have will be difficult in a society that does not agree with cross race relationships. It is a subject that is difficult for me to understand because I have been raised with the acceptance of any love. I am sure there are readers who have family that think differently.

 

We also learn that Lorraine did not reveal Gloria's secret to Bastian, even as she does expose Clara's reasons for New York. Did either of these revelations surprise you? Did they change the way you feel about any of the characters?
I am just annoyed with Lorraine. She doesn't know anyone really well and  them makes mistakes about their intentions.  Her personality as well as Bastian really come into their true colors. Ugly. LOL
Happy Reading!
Contributor
LKD_726
Posts: 19
Registered: ‎07-16-2009

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

First, I was really surprised that Lorraine was not the one who spilled the beans to Bastian.  I think the twist of Vera working with Bastian was a great twist.  She now has the to live with the fact that a man is dead because of her actions.  Also, thought it was an interesting twist that Vera has Bastian's gun.

 

I loved the relationship between Marcus and Claire.  I think he finally starting to grow up when he began to take his feelings for Claire seriously.  Also, liked Claire's soft side  when she finally told Marcus the truth about being a flapper, her love affair and miscarriage.

 

In the end, I really hope that Gloria and Jerome make it.  I loved that they both brought out the best in one another.  Definitely look forward to the second book.

Moderator
Sarah-W
Posts: 526
Registered: ‎10-29-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

I liked Clara, too! I hope they all make it... even Lorraine!

Frequent Contributor
sarah_in_ca
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎09-28-2009
0 Kudos

Re: Vixen Discussion: Part II thru p. 355

Both Gloria and Jerome are so young, so very young.  Gloria especially is so innocent, coming from a high-society home where daughters are watched constantly by the help, family, and friends.  She has little experience and I think is in love with the thought of being in love.  Jerome is more worldly, but he has problems that will be difficult to handle wherever he goes.  But, live and learn, so let's see where their love takes them.

 

I certainly thought Lorraine told Bastian about Gloria, but that she didn't remember she'd done it.  If her jealousy took control again, Lorraine most certainly would not have been out of character to spill the beans.  Luckily I don't have "friends" like Lorraine as I don't see any redeemable qualities in the girl.