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jd
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jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER

So - I have mulled over the book for several days in a drug induced fog(wisdom teeth extraction) and have come to some conclusions. L was a product of her environment. She could not have children that were not raised Catholic and so she could not have sex and so she could not be helping E in his desires except to find the frequent honorable women for him, much to her dismay. Three degrees of separation from suicide so to speak. I feel that she was conciously drawn into his need and felt she should satisfy it in whatever capacity she had. I am sure this produced a dual personality that went on to thrive in a more traditional environment with a cheating husband, frugality and children. Poor E, (snicker up the sleeve) could not deal with the duality of the situation and thus could not be moral, honorable or even informative about his affairs, financial or otherwise. Perhaps the drugs have not worn off. Comments?
jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER

So - I have mulled over the book for several days in a drug induced fog(wisdom teeth extraction) and have come to some conclusions. L was a product of her environment. She could not have children that were not raised Catholic and so she could not have sex and so she could not be helping E in his desires except to find the frequent honorable women for him, much to her dismay. Three degrees of separation from suicide so to speak. I feel that she was conciously drawn into his need and felt she should satisfy it in whatever capacity she had. I am sure this produced a dual personality that went on to thrive in a more traditional environment with a cheating husband, frugality and children. Poor E, (snicker up the sleeve) could not deal with the duality of the situation and thus could not be moral, honorable or even informative about his affairs, financial or otherwise. Perhaps the drugs have not worn off. Comments? Also is it possible she is a good soldier of the church? Following all dictums with furvor and sacrificing her marriage for the beliefs????
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER

[ Edited ]

jd wrote:
So - I have mulled over the book for several days in a drug induced fog(wisdom teeth extraction) and have come to some conclusions. L was a product of her environment. She could not have children that were not raised Catholic and so she could not have sex and so she could not be helping E in his desires except to find the frequent honorable women for him, much to her dismay. Three degrees of separation from suicide so to speak. I feel that she was conciously drawn into his need and felt she should satisfy it in whatever capacity she had. I am sure this produced a dual personality that went on to thrive in a more traditional environment with a cheating husband, frugality and children. Poor E, (snicker up the sleeve) could not deal with the duality of the situation and thus could not be moral, honorable or even informative about his affairs, financial or otherwise. Perhaps the drugs have not worn off. Comments?




LOL. So that is your secret recipe! I wish I had some teeth to be pulled out to get new different insights. Hope you heal well.

I see Leonora as a complex character. Considering the marriage was arranged she sure grew to like Edward but not enough to work things out with him....and later not enough to be vulnerable with him. She kept her mask and yet as I said she basically induced the first extra marital affair even if she can't be blamed..she didn't know what would happen. She trusted more her advisor than her relationship.

"Castrated" as Edward was by her he didn't produce any children either....maybe that is a metaphor if we choose to see it so.

I am not sure I exactly follow all bits in your post but it's interesting. I give it a couple of days.....
really, what did that dentist give to you?

ziki :-)

Message Edited by ziki on 02-26-200707:03 PM

jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER

Ziki wrote, what did the dentist give you? - honestly it was only a few pain pills. but then being in pain brought out so much of what the story was about. So then I moved onto the high contrast of the relationship of E/L and F/J and found that the cheaters die hard and those left standing do not stand long or sane or happy. Although E survived, it was in name only. I will mull over your muse without the benefit of drugs and will get back with you - jd :smileyhappy:
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER

nice poetry, jd
keep writing
please



jd wrote:
Ziki wrote, what did the dentist give you? - honestly it was only a few pain pills. but then being in pain brought out so much of what the story was about. So then I moved onto the high contrast of the relationship of E/L and F/J and found that the cheaters die hard and those left standing do not stand long or sane or happy. Although E survived, it was in name only. I will mull over your muse without the benefit of drugs and will get back with you - jd :smileyhappy:





Ilana
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jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER edited again



jd wrote:
So - I have mulled over the book for several days in a drug induced fog(wisdom teeth extraction) and have come to some conclusions. L was a product of her environment. She could not have children that were not raised Catholic and so she could not have sex and so she could not be helping E in his desires except to find the frequent honorable women for him, much to her dismay. Three degrees of separation from suicide so to speak. I feel that she was conciously drawn into his need and felt she should satisfy it in whatever capacity she had. I am sure this produced a dual personality that went on to thrive in a more traditional environment with a cheating husband, frugality and children. Poor E, (snicker up the sleeve) could not deal with the duality of the situation and thus could not be moral, honorable or even informative about his affairs, financial or otherwise. Perhaps the drugs have not worn off. Comments? Also is it possible she is a good soldier of the church? Following all dictums with furvor and sacrificing her marriage for the beliefs????




I have rethunk it!!!L was a product of her environment and a good soldier for her church and tried to have control over the situation that really was out of control. Her comment about woman being the same to man after a short period of time is her experience and thus she hands E his next laison much like fixing his lunch or supper. E, being the louse he is does not mind that she organizes his relationships, up to Nancy, and proceeds ahead. Nancy is the one relationship that he treated honorably until she got old enough to be desired and then of course it drove him over the edge.
She was raised in his household much like a child which I think he has fatherly feelings for until she becomes desirable and then it is too much for even him to get around. He calls on his friend who comes and does his last bidding, to watch him die. We discussed the pen knife being a difficult tool for suicide, but really if your soul is gone, and your heart is deflated, then perhaps the pen knife is the perfect size for what you have left to kill. What think you?
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Choisya
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER edited again

Superb post jd - thanks! I love the bit about the penknife being the perfect size. You should have your teeth extracted more often.:smileyvery-happy:




jd wrote:


jd wrote:
So - I have mulled over the book for several days in a drug induced fog(wisdom teeth extraction) and have come to some conclusions. L was a product of her environment. She could not have children that were not raised Catholic and so she could not have sex and so she could not be helping E in his desires except to find the frequent honorable women for him, much to her dismay. Three degrees of separation from suicide so to speak. I feel that she was conciously drawn into his need and felt she should satisfy it in whatever capacity she had. I am sure this produced a dual personality that went on to thrive in a more traditional environment with a cheating husband, frugality and children. Poor E, (snicker up the sleeve) could not deal with the duality of the situation and thus could not be moral, honorable or even informative about his affairs, financial or otherwise. Perhaps the drugs have not worn off. Comments? Also is it possible she is a good soldier of the church? Following all dictums with furvor and sacrificing her marriage for the beliefs????




I have rethunk it!!!L was a product of her environment and a good soldier for her church and tried to have control over the situation that really was out of control. Her comment about woman being the same to man after a short period of time is her experience and thus she hands E his next laison much like fixing his lunch or supper. E, being the louse he is does not mind that she organizes his relationships, up to Nancy, and proceeds ahead. Nancy is the one relationship that he treated honorably until she got old enough to be desired and then of course it drove him over the edge.
She was raised in his household much like a child which I think he has fatherly feelings for until she becomes desirable and then it is too much for even him to get around. He calls on his friend who comes and does his last bidding, to watch him die. We discussed the pen knife being a difficult tool for suicide, but really if your soul is gone, and your heart is deflated, then perhaps the pen knife is the perfect size for what you have left to kill. What think you?


jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER edited again

Thank you thank you, jd
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER



jd wrote:
Ziki wrote, what did the dentist give you? - honestly it was only a few pain pills. but then being in pain brought out so much of what the story was about. So then I moved onto the high contrast of the relationship of E/L and F/J and found that the cheaters die hard and those left standing do not stand long or sane or happy. Although E survived, it was in name only. I will mull over your muse without the benefit of drugs and will get back with you - jd :smileyhappy:




this is interesting, jd....being in pain...that is indeed what the story is about...true....thanks for that....and (psychological) pain can sometimes disguise as a very irrational behavior. I just tried that myself IRL and I don't recommend the approach to anybody.

ziki
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Re: Leonora - POSSIBLE SPOILER edited again



jd wrote:L was a product of her environment and a good soldier for her church and tried to have control over the situation that really was out of control.



That is true and she was not willing to be vulnerable and trust and that probably brought the relationship down when I monitor her part of it. Even if times were different for women then ( when you consider the emancipation) this is also a higly contemporary phenomena. Women trying to rule men with the best intention. It doesn't work.

ziki
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edward dead



jd wrote: Nancy is the one relationship that he treated honorably until she got old enough to be desired and then of course it drove him over the edge.
She was raised in his household much like a child which I think he has fatherly feelings for until she becomes desirable and then it is too much for even him to get around. He calls on his friend who comes and does his last bidding, to watch him die. We discussed the pen knife being a difficult tool for suicide, but really if your soul is gone, and your heart is deflated, then perhaps the pen knife is the perfect size for what you have left to kill. What think you?




I think you think what I think. (I just posted about the suicide before I read thsi)..and that was exactly my feeling, you put it very eloquently...soul gone, heart deflated....anything would do in such a moment even a fork.

ziki
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toothless

ROFL choisya....I enjoy jd's musings
ziki-piranha
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