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vivico1
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EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 10/ OTHER CHARACTERS

Ok, i thought i would just ask, since this is a suspense/detective type book, we talked about sosh and and a bit bout first impressions of Lucy, what do you guys think about Muse, Flair, Lonnie and Greta so far? Dont forget Mort lol. Remember, this is first impressions of them, dont go into something later in the book please. :smileywink: after all, its just day 2 of the class in all actuality.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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LizzieAnn
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 10/ OTHER CHARACTERS

Muse is an interesting and strong character. She's definitely an asset to Paul.

Flair just seems to fit his name - flash, show, smarts, & good "photo op."

Lonnie reminds me of someone who doesn't want to grow up - a grown man acting & playing at being much younger.

Greta is a helpful sister-in-law who seems to care about her niece.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Stephanie
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 10/ OTHER CHARACTERS

Liz,

I agree about Muse, she does seem like a strong personality, and my first impression of her was one of intelligent honestly. She was a favorite early on.
Stephanie
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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 10/ OTHER CHARACTERS

I like Muse, always on top of everything, inside Paul's head enough to know what to do next almost before he asks. She is a strong character. (I can see this book as a movie and there is a female star that its bugging the heck out of me that i cant think of her name, that I could see playing Muse OHH, Holly Hunter! did you see her as a cop in Copycat or one of the reporters in Broadcast News? She would be great as Muse I think) I need to go back and see, was there a physical description of her? In my head, i see a very short woman for some reason, was she? (maybe cause i see Holly Hunter, when i see her) with lots of energy and tell me something as you go along...does she seem to have as big an eye for the women as Paul does? lol She sure seems to know the lookers and hang out with them or point them out. She describes them nearly the way Paul does.
Flair, oh i see him as very flamboyant in his actions in life outside the court and a bit more measured inside and a very good but kinda stuck up attorney lol.
Greta, I loved that she watches over Cara and loves Paul and gives him those sisterly kisses on the cheek.
Lonnie is like many guys I have meet, always on the make but often if you actually got forward with them it scared them. I think Lonnie is all talk and easily scared. I love the way Lucy handles him. Lucy has the comebacks that are so similar to Paul's, shes almost the female version of him. And under all that, both her and Paul are vulnerable.
Mort is one of those nutcases you need around a court battle to roll your eyes at and want to slap up side the head, or fall asleep while he goes off lol. Paul knows how to trip his trigger really fast, its not hard.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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KathyS
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13 - Who is Sylvia Potter?

This is a character that I'm fascinated with....who is she to write this story, and then run away from it? Why does she want this story known to Lucy...It's like she's saying, "I know who you are, but I'm not going to tell you who I am, and how I happen to know your story!" I'm afraid for her! Did anyone feel that, besides me? More secrets! My mind keeps running into a brick wall with these characters!
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KathyS
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

What did you feel about Lucy's ethics in finding Sylvia? I had the feeling, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.

I'm not that crazy about Lonnie - and his dragging his feet in helping Lucy seemed a contradiction to this character's drooling-sleaziness. Does ethics play a part, or do you think he was just afraid of being caught, or loosing his job? Anyone have any opinions on this?
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LizzieAnn
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

I'm with you Kathy - I probably would have done the same thing Lucy did as well. I can't even imagine her shock to read those words - to know that this is a personal & secret story about a very tumultous time in her life.

I'm not crazy about Lonnie, and I don't quite trust him. He's a "peter pan" character who doesn't quite ring true.



KathyS wrote:
What did you feel about Lucy's ethics in finding Sylvia? I had the feeling, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.

I'm not that crazy about Lonnie - and his dragging his feet in helping Lucy seemed a contradiction to this character's drooling-sleaziness. Does ethics play a part, or do you think he was just afraid of being caught, or loosing his job? Anyone have any opinions on this?


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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KathyS
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

[ Edited ]

LizzieAnn wrote:
I'm with you Kathy - I probably would have done the same thing Lucy did as well. I can't even imagine her shock to read those words - to know that this is a personal & secret story about a very tumultous time in her life.

I'm not crazy about Lonnie, and I don't quite trust him. He's a "peter pan" character who doesn't quite ring true.




chapter 15, I see Lonnie's made an about face....wanting to find out more about Lucy's background, wanting to help her now. I wonder why? And what "ways" will he use to get Sylvia Potter to talk to him, when she wouldn't talk to Lucy? Does he think he can shmooz his way into little Sylvia's good graces? He seems awfully sure of himself!

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-08-200712:22 PM

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kiakar
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics



KathyS wrote:
What did you feel about Lucy's ethics in finding Sylvia? I had the feeling, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.

I'm not that crazy about Lonnie - and his dragging his feet in helping Lucy seemed a contradiction to this character's drooling-sleaziness. Does ethics play a part, or do you think he was just afraid of being caught, or loosing his job? Anyone have any opinions on this?




I do not like Lonnie very much either. He does seem sleazy of sorts. And I do believe he has his claws somewhere in this pie where they shouldn't be. Sylvia wrote the journal about someone abusing her didn't she? She is not the author of Lucy's story. Someone has suggested that Lonnie did this, put it in the pot for Lucy to find. So we will need to read on to find out where the journal came from.
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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

I find it interesting that no one has a problem with a professor, a psychologist (or psychiatrist) hunting down a student who is promised anonimity (sp) for her personal matter when she wouldnt break that oath for someone who was hurting and in trouble herself. The school could fire her and tho she may need this, what if the one who was abused as a child and having a hard time dealing with it needed it? She didnt worry about the one who wasnt her. Whoever wrote the journal, knew she would break her ethics for the info. Must be something to that. I most likely would have done the same thing too, i am no saint either but no one finds it wrong?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


LizzieAnn wrote:
I'm with you Kathy - I probably would have done the same thing Lucy did as well. I can't even imagine her shock to read those words - to know that this is a personal & secret story about a very tumultous time in her life.

I'm not crazy about Lonnie, and I don't quite trust him. He's a "peter pan" character who doesn't quite ring true.



KathyS wrote:
What did you feel about Lucy's ethics in finding Sylvia? I had the feeling, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.

I'm not that crazy about Lonnie - and his dragging his feet in helping Lucy seemed a contradiction to this character's drooling-sleaziness. Does ethics play a part, or do you think he was just afraid of being caught, or loosing his job? Anyone have any opinions on this?







I would have done the same thing that Lucy did. How could you not? She believed this was a private moment between only two people, friends were murdered and she had to change her life because of it. The man convicted of the crimes is also in jail. How could her story turn up in a journal entry? My bags would be packed and I would be on my way!
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kiakar
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics



vivico1 wrote:
I find it interesting that no one has a problem with a professor, a psychologist (or psychiatrist) hunting down a student who is promised anonimity (sp) for her personal matter when she wouldnt break that oath for someone who was hurting and in trouble herself. The school could fire her and tho she may need this, what if the one who was abused as a child and having a hard time dealing with it needed it? She didnt worry about the one who wasnt her. Whoever wrote the journal, knew she would break her ethics for the info. Must be something to that. I most likely would have done the same thing too, i am no saint either but no one finds it wrong?




Isn't this an adult we are talking about? And didn't this happen awhile back?
In writing about this, Sylvia was probably trying to help herself get to a point of return from this horrible thing that happened to her. Writing about things like this, do help. So I have heard. I haven't read all of the book so I couldn't say anything else about this incident yet.
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Wrighty
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:
I find it interesting that no one has a problem with a professor, a psychologist (or psychiatrist) hunting down a student who is promised anonimity (sp) for her personal matter when she wouldnt break that oath for someone who was hurting and in trouble herself. The school could fire her and tho she may need this, what if the one who was abused as a child and having a hard time dealing with it needed it? She didnt worry about the one who wasnt her. Whoever wrote the journal, knew she would break her ethics for the info. Must be something to that. I most likely would have done the same thing too, i am no saint either but no one finds it wrong?




Isn't this an adult we are talking about? And didn't this happen awhile back?
In writing about this, Sylvia was probably trying to help herself get to a point of return from this horrible thing that happened to her. Writing about things like this, do help. So I have heard. I haven't read all of the book so I couldn't say anything else about this incident yet.




When Lucy started searching for the author of the journal, it wasn't someone else's story it was hers and it was being used against her. It doesn't seem like she would be breaking any oath there. Regarding the incest story, when I taught school if we even suspected any abuse to a student we were required by law to report it. The proper authorities would then decide how to deal with it. I wonder how that would apply in this situation. These are college students of different ages.
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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


Wrighty wrote:





When Lucy started searching for the author of the journal, it wasn't someone else's story it was hers and it was being used against her. It doesn't seem like she would be breaking any oath there. Regarding the incest story, when I taught school if we even suspected any abuse to a student we were required by law to report it. The proper authorities would then decide how to deal with it. I wonder how that would apply in this situation. These are college students of different ages.


These are college students, she is not require to report incest to authorities but I am telling you, she does cross a line for personal reasons and its not being used against her even, if you think about it, not at this point. When I was doing grad work in psychology and doing intern work just talking to other college students, i had to already get malpractice insurance "just in case". She never told these students,. your most inner personal feelings and thoughts will be safe, unless they relate to me personally. If anyone wanted to pursue it, she could have been suspended at least and then if they could prove this had any real validity to an ongoing murder case, she might get off easier but like Lonnie even points out, they had read much much worse and never crossed the line. Remember too that she crosses that line before she even knows about Gil Perez, to know there is anything new happening or just some kid with some info about her past life. So at the time she starts the search, its definately a breach of ethics.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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HarlanCoben
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 10/ OTHER CHARACTERS

This is simply a great discussion. Many of the questions raised -- was Lucy ethical in trying to hunt down the student? -- are exactly what I want you to ask. As you get deeper into THE WOODS (pardon that pun), I hope you will find a lot of their decisions iffy. That's what I want. I don't want this to be easy on Paul or Lucy or any of the major characters. I want you to wonder what you'd do in these situations.


Enjoy.
Harlan
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Stephanie
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

Viv,

Ethics... is it ethical to promise something you shouldn't deliver? I don't think Lucy should have promised anonymity to the students regarding their journals. It's an invitation to information you don't want, and probably shouldn't have.

At any rate, the promise of anonymity applied to the students' journals. This journal is a hoax, a fake. Therefore, the promise does not apply.

(Also, anyone who thinks they will have true anonymity on the Internet or when using e-mail should be aware, there's no such thing.)
Stephanie
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Andeka
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

Kathy S wrote:

What did you feel about Lucy's ethics in finding Sylvia? I had the feeling, if I were in her shoes, I would have done the same thing.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think Lucy was right to find out who submitted that story - only because it was so detailed about what happened to HER - that just screamed "blackmail" to me, and I wouldn't wait around either, to see what other cards the blackmailer might be planning to play.
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Andeka
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

Stephanie:

(Also, anyone who thinks they will have true anonymity on the Internet or when using e-mail should be aware, there's no such thing.)

---------------------------------------------------

Exactly!
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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


Stephanie wrote:
Viv,

Ethics... is it ethical to promise something you shouldn't deliver? I don't think Lucy should have promised anonymity to the students regarding their journals. It's an invitation to information you don't want, and probably shouldn't have.

At any rate, the promise of anonymity applied to the students' journals. This journal is a hoax, a fake. Therefore, the promise does not apply.

(Also, anyone who thinks they will have true anonymity on the Internet or when using e-mail should be aware, there's no such thing.)


I agree, thats what I am saying,it wasnt ethical of Lucy to promise something she wouldnt deliver, anonymity. It doesnt matter that it was about her, why is her past or her life more important than that of those she promised anonymity to? These kind of journal things do go on tho at a college level in some classes and you do expect the college, i.e. the professor, to keep this ethic.
As for not expecting it because they are sent over the internet, that a totally different issue than Lucy's ethics. Yes you know that they could be found out on the internet if someone wanted to, who doesnt know that, what you dont know is that your professor will be the one doing it after you have been told they won't. This goes to Lucy's ethics, not the assignment, not the internet, not the idea of it even, but her ethics and so it tells us something more about Lucy.
Also, is anyone getting that whoever is sending these (and not all the facts are right Lucy admits) is someone who KNOWS this about her, that even with it being enough similar, not exact, Lucy will break her ethics to find it? They know this about her, I think thats an important aspect to who we perceive Lucy to be and about who sent it.
If you think about it, we know that she and Paul both kept a secret from the police about what they were doing exactly that night. Kid's stuff I know but I am beginning to see an ethics learning experience also happening in this book. Lucy broke hers out of fear, twice now as we get to know her. Paul is all about "right is right and that is that" at this age that he wasnt as that kid. As Harlan said in one of his posts, he doesnt like his characters being black and white and these two aren't. So how is that going to finally play out in the end? Interesting huh.

One more thing, as for the journal being fake, so the promise doesn't apply....where would that be written on the assignment? lol, like, you have our promise of anonymity UNLESS we believe your horrible stories to be a lie, then we will look for you? It doesn't work that way. I was asked to do something a little similar in college and the only thing they told us that would cause them to break their anonymity was if we were writing about harming ourselves,(contemplatiing suicide), or if it were about an unreported criminal offense. Now this was about a time that involved a crime, but the journal has nothing in it about the criminal act. If one would argue that this is what invalidates the promise then Lucy has only one option, to involve the police to find who it was for that purpose. This wasnt the case, this was strickly for Lucy's need, they had read other things before that were on the line of looking for the person, but she didnt BECAUSE they didnt involve her. Don't get me wrong, I like Lucy and as I said, I probably would have done it too. All I am saying is its a breach of ethics for her that we have to accept that she did.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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cindersue
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

Speaking of anonymity ... why would anyone write about incest or other personal things to a teacher? I'd always be on guard with my personal stuff. Perhaps Sylvia really wanted to be found out so she could talk about it. Remember in the beginning of the book she acted like she wanted to tell Lucy something. To talk ...
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