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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


cindersue wrote:
Speaking of anonymity ... why would anyone write about incest or other personal things to a teacher? I'd always be on guard with my personal stuff. Perhaps Sylvia really wanted to be found out so she could talk about it. Remember in the beginning of the book she acted like she wanted to tell Lucy something. To talk ...


You are right, and she did appear to be crying out for help, wanting to talk, did Lucy break her promise to help her? No, even feeling that the girl was hurting.

Yeah the psychologist in me would have wanted to find out about who wrote all of them LOL, so i dont think I could do that kind of exercise from the professors side. From the side of writing it, like I did in college, sometimes writing, in and of itself, is a cathartic thing to do. Later, when I did seek out the help of a psychiatrist for things that really did happen in my life, thats something they had us do all the time, write write write. Write about what happened, write about how you felt about it as if it were now, also, something i really really needed, write some goodbyes that I never got to say to some loved ones who died.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics


vivico1 wrote:

Stephanie wrote:
Viv,

Ethics... is it ethical to promise something you shouldn't deliver? I don't think Lucy should have promised anonymity to the students regarding their journals. It's an invitation to information you don't want, and probably shouldn't have.

At any rate, the promise of anonymity applied to the students' journals. This journal is a hoax, a fake. Therefore, the promise does not apply.

(Also, anyone who thinks they will have true anonymity on the Internet or when using e-mail should be aware, there's no such thing.)


I agree, thats what I am saying,it wasnt ethical of Lucy to promise something she wouldnt deliver, anonymity. It doesnt matter that it was about her, why is her past or her life more important than that of those she promised anonymity to? These kind of journal things do go on tho at a college level in some classes and you do expect the college, i.e. the professor, to keep this ethic.
As for not expecting it because they are sent over the internet, that a totally different issue than Lucy's ethics. Yes you know that they could be found out on the internet if someone wanted to, who doesnt know that, what you dont know is that your professor will be the one doing it after you have been told they won't. This goes to Lucy's ethics, not the assignment, not the internet, not the idea of it even, but her ethics and so it tells us something more about Lucy.
Also, is anyone getting that whoever is sending these (and not all the facts are right Lucy admits) is someone who KNOWS this about her, that even with it being enough similar, not exact, Lucy will break her ethics to find it? They know this about her, I think thats an important aspect to who we perceive Lucy to be and about who sent it.
If you think about it, we know that she and Paul both kept a secret from the police about what they were doing exactly that night. Kid's stuff I know but I am beginning to see an ethics learning experience also happening in this book. Lucy broke hers out of fear, twice now as we get to know her. Paul is all about "right is right and that is that" at this age that he wasnt as that kid. As Harlan said in one of his posts, he doesnt like his characters being black and white and these two aren't. So how is that going to finally play out in the end? Interesting huh.

One more thing, as for the journal being fake, so the promise doesn't apply....where would that be written on the assignment? lol, like, you have our promise of anonymity UNLESS we believe your horrible stories to be a lie, then we will look for you? It doesn't work that way. I was asked to do something a little similar in college and the only thing they told us that would cause them to break their anonymity was if we were writing about harming ourselves,(contemplatiing suicide), or if it were about an unreported criminal offense. Now this was about a time that involved a crime, but the journal has nothing in it about the criminal act. If one would argue that this is what invalidates the promise then Lucy has only one option, to involve the police to find who it was for that purpose. This wasnt the case, this was strickly for Lucy's need, they had read other things before that were on the line of looking for the person, but she didnt BECAUSE they didnt involve her. Don't get me wrong, I like Lucy and as I said, I probably would have done it too. All I am saying is its a breach of ethics for her that we have to accept that she did.




I understand your point Viv, and I think Lucy would do what she had to do to protect her own caboose when it involves a murderer coming back for a visit ( as would I, probably! :smileysurprised:) but I think we are making separate points about the same issue. Stephanie said much better what I was trying to say, Lucy didn't break her promise. She kept the journals anonymous. The email she traced wasn't a journal and she knew that as soon as she received it. This was basically a threat that was intentionally handed in with the assignments. She didn't assume it was a journal, trace it and then find out. It was never a journal and was never from a student.

In different circumstance she may have asked the police for help but she felt she shared some of the responsibility in the deaths of her friends. She felt that the police were looking for her as well and that's why she left her life behind years ago. She hasn't made the best decisions but she was only a scared teenager when this all started.
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vivico1
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Re: EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

But shes a grown adult now. And she DID think it was a student when she first told Lonnie to find out who it was. I agree it was to save her hinnie (maybe) maybe more just her secret past but again, she didnt break that ethic for anyone else's health when man I so would have. What do you think about the fact that whoever sent in the journal, knew she would break the rule for herself? I dont see that this was even necessarily a percieved threat at the time, she wondered if some kid found out about it and it was a sick practical joke on her or to blackmail her about her past. She never sounded worried for her life when she did this. So who would know she would do it? This is knowing enough about a person to play them, and thats a lot.
_______________________________________________________________________________

wrighty wrote:
I understand your point Viv, and I think Lucy would do what she had to do to protect her own caboose when it involves a murderer coming back for a visit ( as would I, probably! ) but I think we are making separate points about the same issue. . The email she traced wasn't a journal and she knew that as soon as she received it. This was basically a threat that was intentionally handed in with the assignments. She didn't assume it was a journal, trace it and then find out. It was never a journal and was never from a student.

In different circumstance she may have asked the police for help but she felt she shared some of the responsibility in the deaths of her friends. She felt that the police were looking for her as well and that's why she left her life behind years ago. She hasn't made the best decisions but she was only a scared teenager when this all started.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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writing


vivico1 wrote:

cindersue wrote:
Speaking of anonymity ... why would anyone write about incest or other personal things to a teacher? I'd always be on guard with my personal stuff. Perhaps Sylvia really wanted to be found out so she could talk about it. Remember in the beginning of the book she acted like she wanted to tell Lucy something. To talk ...


You are right, and she did appear to be crying out for help, wanting to talk, did Lucy break her promise to help her? No, even feeling that the girl was hurting.

Yeah the psychologist in me would have wanted to find out about who wrote all of them LOL, so i dont think I could do that kind of exercise from the professors side. From the side of writing it, like I did in college, sometimes writing, in and of itself, is a cathartic thing to do. Later, when I did seek out the help of a psychiatrist for things that really did happen in my life, thats something they had us do all the time, write write write. Write about what happened, write about how you felt about it as if it were now, also, something i really really needed, write some goodbyes that I never got to say to some loved ones who died.




That's so true Viv, writing can be so cathartic! In high school we kept journals in English class and it was amazing how much some students revealed about themselves, including me. It was just fun stuff but still...When I was teacher I also assigned journals but my students could use them for anything they wanted as long as they used them. My students and I both enjoyed it and they were so creative. They turned in drawings, collections, photos, etc. If kids wrote to me I wrote back. It was fun!

I've often used writing when I was hurt or angry too. It feels so much better to say all of the things you want to say to someone and then rip it up afterwards. That way you can say what you want to without regretting it. :smileywink:

Did it help you when you wrote about the issues in your life? Do you still write now?
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vivico1
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Re: writing

[ Edited ]

Wrighty wrote:



That's so true Viv, writing can be so cathartic! In high school we kept journals in English class and it was amazing how much some students revealed about themselves, including me. It was just fun stuff but still...When I was teacher I also assigned journals but my students could use them for anything they wanted as long as they used them. My students and I both enjoyed it and they were so creative. They turned in drawings, collections, photos, etc. If kids wrote to me I wrote back. It was fun!

I've often used writing when I was hurt or angry too. It feels so much better to say all of the things you want to say to someone and then rip it up afterwards. That way you can say what you want to without regretting it. :smileywink:

Did it help you when you wrote about the issues in your life? Do you still write now?


oh it absolutely helped! I have a whole book of poetry (not published) but that was my wy of getting things out and a few friends have had me make one for them and sign them lol, they keep waiting for me to publish, it aint that easy, especially poetry in book form for someone who has only had a couple of individual ones published. A lot of what I write now is short stories and poetry but of a much different sort. I tend to celebrate life more now. I still use it as a technique for getting some things out but most of my poetry now is more uplifting and one of the things I love to do is write my own ecards for friends and loved ones that are terribly romantic lol. Tho, no one to write those to now even tho some were to just friends too. (I believe friends can be terrible romantics together too, call it "sentimental" if thats more comfortable but i see it as romantic, because romantic doesnt have to be about sexual attraction only) Also once in awhile, I will write some short stories for people, for gifts. I have them tell me a favorite place, a favorite period of history they would like it set in and what they might want it about and then i write personalised poems. I have written a couple of anniversary poems for people to give as gifts too. I am told there could be a market for these things. dont know, dont know how to find out how lol and dont really care, just like the challenge and the gift to someone. I do have someone in here who could tell you if some of my writing is any good. She got to read the real things, even some of my romantic things lol, i am not sure about the fantasy poems for people tho, and thats cindersue lol. So she can be my critic. And be honest girl,either way LOL.

Message Edited by vivico1 on 05-10-200712:47 AM

Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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LizzieAnn
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EARLY CHAPTERS THROUGH 13/ Lucy/Lonnie's ethics

Blackmail never came to my mind. What questions did come to mind were: How did someone know this? Did they actually find Lucy's journal? Did she really write this all down?



Andeka wrote:

I think Lucy was right to find out who submitted that story - only because it was so detailed about what happened to HER - that just screamed "blackmail" to me, and I wouldn't wait around either, to see what other cards the blackmailer might be planning to play.


Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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Stephanie
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The (creepy) journal

Liz,

I felt the same way you did- I kept thinking, Who would know, how would they know, no, they were alone, no one would know! Anyway, it drove me crazy until I finally had to stop thinking about it.

Finally I gave up worrying it, and I just thought it was a fascinating device because it would have been terrifically unbelievable for Lucy to revisit those moments in real time without getting knocked cold and going into some weird dream-like state. Which, in itself would have tossed disbelief into my lap like a wet cat. This was author's craft at its best.
Stephanie
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Wrighty
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Re: The (creepy) journal


Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

I felt the same way you did- I kept thinking, Who would know, how would they know, no, they were alone, no one would know! Anyway, it drove me crazy until I finally had to stop thinking about it.

Finally I gave up worrying it, and I just thought it was a fascinating device because it would have been terrifically unbelievable for Lucy to revisit those moments in real time without getting knocked cold and going into some weird dream-like state. Which, in itself would have tossed disbelief into my lap like a wet cat. This was author's craft at its best.




That was driving me crazy too. I had some ideas but I didn't know where the details came from. That's why I thought this story was so good. I would start to figure something out but then some of the pieces of the puzzle just wouldn't fit.
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Stephanie
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Re: The (creepy) journal




That was driving me crazy too. I had some ideas but I didn't know where the details came from. That's why I thought this story was so good. I would start to figure something out but then some of the pieces of the puzzle just wouldn't fit.




Sometimes it's fun to just kick back and let the story happen, isn't it? I'm a puzzle person (I have a colleague teaching me how to do the 'Cryptoquip' in a record five minutes!) and I love the figuring, but this was one novel that just kept on surprising me. I really enjoy that.
Stephanie
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kiakar
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Re: The (creepy) journal



Stephanie wrote:



That was driving me crazy too. I had some ideas but I didn't know where the details came from. That's why I thought this story was so good. I would start to figure something out but then some of the pieces of the puzzle just wouldn't fit.




Sometimes it's fun to just kick back and let the story happen, isn't it? I'm a puzzle person (I have a colleague teaching me how to do the 'Cryptoquip' in a record five minutes!) and I love the figuring, but this was one novel that just kept on surprising me. I really enjoy that.




Wasn't it twisted from the largest tree back to the smallest? I loved this book. You never knew what to expect and the end was surprising also.
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Stephanie
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Re: The (creepy) journal

Linda,

Yes, it definitely worked for me on many levels. First and foremost, the message of being upfront - I truly appreciated that. Then, the plot twists that kept me turning pages much too fast- you know me, I'm like a greedy child in a chocolate shop - and then the flipping backwards... What happened? I must have missed something! I love when a book has me guessing from first page to last. I was involved with the characters too, they all contained so many layers- there was no simple "liking a character" in this book. By the end of the story, I was even engaged with the minor characters.

Group: Was there a point in this book, with its many twists, when you just finally gave up trying to figure things out and simply went along for the ride? If so, at what point? Was it difficult?
Stephanie
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vivico1
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Re: The (creepy) journal


Stephanie wrote:

Group: Was there a point in this book, with its many twists, when you just finally gave up trying to figure things out and simply went along for the ride? If so, at what point? Was it difficult?


It's a really good suspense book for the non-professional detective in us. I was definately along for the ride and going to see it out to the end. But I think I never stopped trying to figure it out either, that was part of the fun, thats what made the twists for me so great, the fact that they were twists and i was so wrong! lol. One I knew but so much was just like HUH?? what the? WOW! There was so much going on in this book too that yeah, I found myself going back to check something out that I might have missed, or reread something that someone pointed out in it. I like a book that has me coming back to it many times, even when I am done reading it.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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figuring it out


Stephanie wrote:
Linda,

Yes, it definitely worked for me on many levels. First and foremost, the message of being upfront - I truly appreciated that. Then, the plot twists that kept me turning pages much too fast- you know me, I'm like a greedy child in a chocolate shop - and then the flipping backwards... What happened? I must have missed something! I love when a book has me guessing from first page to last. I was involved with the characters too, they all contained so many layers- there was no simple "liking a character" in this book. By the end of the story, I was even engaged with the minor characters.

Group: Was there a point in this book, with its many twists, when you just finally gave up trying to figure things out and simply went along for the ride? If so, at what point? Was it difficult?




I never gave up trying to figure things out but I knew it wouldn't be simple and it wouldn't be just one answer. There are many pieces to the puzzle. Harlan's books are so good that I'm enjoying the ride the whole time whether I figure things out or not.
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