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vivico1
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom/precourt banter


KathyS wrote:
But you know Kathy, is her wanting the money too, really so mercenary, given her life and needs and what they did? I think it makes her real and wanting payback makes her real. This is still an open wound to her too and who has she got to believe her that it was even a rape? You cant pay them back by raping them back. But you can take away their freedom like they did hers and they took something precious from her, so why not take what is from them...their money? Is it mercenary or justice? Maybe both. But I like that he did make her real and not some nice little girl with no warts of her own. It really makes it so much more real to know that rape is rape, regardless of the status or character of the person raped. I loved that there was that honesty there.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Viv, I'm not sure if I'm making my point clear. I don't have a problem with Chamique being real...I see her realness in who she is, what she does, and what's happened to her. Paul makes that perfectly clear. He shows her every "wart". She's real enough for me to reach out and touch! I see her wounds, she bleeds just like the rest of us. She hurts, I see that. I don't dispute that. How can I, when I cry for her in her situation?

I more than see the point of taking these guys rears off to jail, they deserve to get whatever is coming to them. But what I don't see is, is just because she NEEDS money, is this the honest way of getting it?...if you want to call it an eye for an eye, money has nothing to do with getting justice in this case.

Again, I see her needs, but it comes more from her WANTS. Wants aren't needs, and it has nothing to do with justice. We are not in this life, as far as I'm concerned, to use the system to make money. There are times when money is the only thing that you have to get from these people, to repay you for what has been done to you, but if these boys lives are shut away, then both they, and their parents, are paid back. And justice is then served.


I am not saying if its right or wrong, I am just saying I am glad he had her honest about the money too and like she says in court, yes she thinks about money, dont you? (to Cope and to the jury). and shes just a kid with no one to take care of her except how she has been making money up till now. The boys fathers are willing to throw it at her to shut her up, so make them give it to her to maybe start over. I dont mean that to leave it out would make her less real to the reader as a person, but I think it makes her more honest to be real about the money. Without giving away more that might be a spoiler to others cause i am not sure where this part is in the book, but if you read or reread later what her lawyer for the money has to say about her, I think you will find what you are really wanting to see in her.
Vivian
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KathyS
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Retribution



Andeka wrote:
KathyS wrote:

Again, I see her needs, but it comes more from her WANTS. Wants aren't needs, and it has nothing to do with justice. We are not in this life, as far as I'm concerned, to use the system to make money. There are times when money is the only thing that you have to get from these people, to repay you for what has been done to you, but if these boys lives are shut away, then both they, and their parents, are paid back. And justice is then served.

--------------------------------------------------------

That's a very good point, Kathy, and I agree with your concept here. I see our judicial system as the new way to acquire wealth these days, and it really makes me wonder about our society sometimes. I'm not totally against the monetary payout necessarily, but I do wonder about the amount sometimes, that gets awarded. Is there really a price that can erase the damage?




Ande,
Your last sentence....question....From where I sit, the answer is no.
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kiakar
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom



vivico1 wrote:

Andeka wrote:
I thought Paul's tactic was gutsy and brilliant! Get his client to tell the jury first before the defendants can do it; kind of takes the wind out of their sails.

I had mixed feelings about Paul's attitude towards the defendants; I feel that maybe he's being hard on them (not accepting/admitting it was just a terrible mistake) because of his guilt over the past. Yet he's absolutely right in saying it's his job to bring justice to a girl who's been raped.


Do you think that a rape can be "a terrible mistake"?




Vivian; Did you mis read me or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I certainly didn't mean, it was the victim's fault she got raped or that the rapist was less quilty of what he did wrong. But to me, it was a mistake, a horrific one. The rapist made it, and definitely should be punished for it.
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vivico1
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom


kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

Andeka wrote:
I thought Paul's tactic was gutsy and brilliant! Get his client to tell the jury first before the defendants can do it; kind of takes the wind out of their sails.

I had mixed feelings about Paul's attitude towards the defendants; I feel that maybe he's being hard on them (not accepting/admitting it was just a terrible mistake) because of his guilt over the past. Yet he's absolutely right in saying it's his job to bring justice to a girl who's been raped.


Do you think that a rape can be "a terrible mistake"?




Vivian; Did you mis read me or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I certainly didn't mean, it was the victim's fault she got raped or that the rapist was less quilty of what he did wrong. But to me, it was a mistake, a horrific one. The rapist made it, and definitely should be punished for it.


No, kiakar, I didn't think you meant it was the victims fault at all:smileywink: I did talk about how some in society seem to think so by what they wear. But I do think the word "mistake" can not fit into any sentance along with the word rape. To say rape is "a terrible mistake" is like saying OOPPS! my bad! I am sorry. Its never a mistake, its intentional selfish violence. I may go down fighting on this one alone but I will never accept the words "terrible mistake" as a description of a rape, even as suggested if someone is drunk.
This is why I agree with Paul's assessment of these boys and his seemingly lack of concern one way or the other about their little college futures. They didn't make a terrible mistake, they made a conscious choice the same way as if it were a man who jumped out of an alley and pulled some woman off the sidewake and raped her there. And he proves it too.
Vivian
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kiakar
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom



vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:


vivico1 wrote:

Andeka wrote:
I thought Paul's tactic was gutsy and brilliant! Get his client to tell the jury first before the defendants can do it; kind of takes the wind out of their sails.

I had mixed feelings about Paul's attitude towards the defendants; I feel that maybe he's being hard on them (not accepting/admitting it was just a terrible mistake) because of his guilt over the past. Yet he's absolutely right in saying it's his job to bring justice to a girl who's been raped.


Do you think that a rape can be "a terrible mistake"?




Vivian; Did you mis read me or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I certainly didn't mean, it was the victim's fault she got raped or that the rapist was less quilty of what he did wrong. But to me, it was a mistake, a horrific one. The rapist made it, and definitely should be punished for it.


No, kiakar, I didn't think you meant it was the victims fault at all:smileywink: I did talk about how some in society seem to think so by what they wear. But I do think the word "mistake" can not fit into any sentance along with the word rape. To say rape is "a terrible mistake" is like saying OOPPS! my bad! I am sorry. Its never a mistake, its intentional selfish violence. I may go down fighting on this one alone but I will never accept the words "terrible mistake" as a description of a rape, even as suggested if someone is drunk.
This is why I agree with Paul's assessment of these boys and his seemingly lack of concern one way or the other about their little college futures. They didn't make a terrible mistake, they made a conscious choice the same way as if it were a man who jumped out of an alley and pulled some woman off the sidewake and raped her there. And he proves it too.




I get your meaning now! I guess I was using mistake as a wrong choice of a word for what I meant. oops!
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charlottesweb93
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom

The first thing that jumped into my mind while reading the first few chapters was the Duke Lacrosse team situation. Since publication, that had a very different outcome than the book (at least 83 pages into the book.)

I LOVED how Paul handled the confrontation with the father of one of the boys. I loved how he did not back down. So far, I am really digging Paul.
Charlotte
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vivico1
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom


charlottesweb93 wrote:
The first thing that jumped into my mind while reading the first few chapters was the Duke Lacrosse team situation. Since publication, that had a very different outcome than the book (at least 83 pages into the book.)

I LOVED how Paul handled the confrontation with the father of one of the boys. I loved how he did not back down. So far, I am really digging Paul.


Yeah I thought about the La Crosse thing too and also this problem has happened here at the University of Oklahoma several times over the years. Thats something that makes this book more real to you and if one is are around colleges where this has happened, one surely has got to have feelings about it one way or the other. Paul is pretty cool huh. I wonder how much Harlan is like Paul or how much Harlan puts into Paul what he would like to be but maybe isnt quite. Does that make sense?
Vivian
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Stephanie
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom

Charlotte,

I also thought about the Duke lacrosse team.

I was glad Harlan showed us the victim here and made us respect at least her honesty. And I know what you mean about "digging" Paul- that's a great way to put it!
Stephanie
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Wrighty
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the question of rape


vivico1 wrote:

Do you think that a rape can be "a terrible mistake"?




I think everyone's thoughts are similar but it's the wording of the question that's causing the misunderstandings. Maybe if it was

Do you think that rape can be just a "terrible mistake"?

it may be a bit more clear. I interpreted the question to be asking if it could ever be a mistake, almost as if it were an accident. If the rapist had a good excuse (such as being drunk) then that's not what he intended therefore he's not guilty, or as guilty. It doesn't really count as rape even though the outcome is the same. He's not going to do it again so just erase that mistake and have a "do over". Is that how the question was intended?

As I already mentioned I don't think it's ever a mistake. It's a terrible crime that takes physical force. You can't rape someone by accident.
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vivico1
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Re: the question of rape


Wrighty wrote:

vivico1 wrote:

Do you think that a rape can be "a terrible mistake"?




I think everyone's thoughts are similar but it's the wording of the question that's causing the misunderstandings. Maybe if it was

Do you think that rape can be just a "terrible mistake"?

it may be a bit more clear. I interpreted the question to be asking if it could ever be a mistake, almost as if it were an accident. If the rapist had a good excuse (such as being drunk) then that's not what he intended therefore he's not guilty, or as guilty. It doesn't really count as rape even though the outcome is the same. He's not going to do it again so just erase that mistake and have a "do over". Is that how the question was intended?

As I already mentioned I don't think it's ever a mistake. It's a terrible crime that takes physical force. You can't rape someone by accident.


Pretty much that's what I meant by putting the parentheses around the words "terrible mistake", that its never "just" a mistake or EVER a mistake. You say two things there that seem opposite to each other. You said in your last line, you can't rape anyone by mistake, and i TOTALLY agree with that. But up in the middle you say "If the rapist had a good excuse (such as being drunk) then that's not what he intended therefore he's not guilty, or as guilty. It doesn't really count as rape even though the outcome is the same."
If you can never rape by mistake, how can there be any "good excuse such as being drunk" that would make the act not count as a rape? Rape is rape, there is nothing that is a good excuse that makes it unintentional. Alcohol is not like the date rape drug. It doesnt make you unaware of whats going on,(unless you have blackouts and then without going into it on here, it gets more physically difficult for a man to have sex period much less the actions it takes to have sex with someone fighting you. Alcohol blackouts are not like mentally ill blackouts well like in the book Cage of Stars we read where Scott the schizophenic had one and killed) it just makes it ok to do whatever the heck you want to do regardless of anyone else. If I was on a jury and they told me, well he really didnt mean to do it, he was drunk, I would be more likely right then and there to want to convict him for his excuses for doing it, than if he said, yeah he did it, he knows he did and its eating him up that he could have done such a thing. If you are saying alcohol makes it less than a rape, or somehow a little excuseable, then again, we must agree to disagree because I agree completely with your one statement but never with the alcohol excuse. I find the alcohol excuse deplorable. (not your oppinion :smileywink: ok?) but the idea of it from anywhere out there.
Vivian
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kiakar
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Re: the question of rape

Wrightly and Vivian;

Vivian and I have talked about this. I apparently had the wrong meaning of the word in my head at the time I wrote what I wrote. I have been sexually abused also, so I certainly would still be mixed up abit if I thought of it as a mistake, generally the way you look at that word. Sorry for the wrong impression. My old brain gets confused sometimes. ha. Thanks to Stephanie also, for trying to straighten me out! Stephanie is the best.
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vivico1
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Re: the question of rape


kiakar wrote:
Wrightly and Vivian;

Vivian and I have talked about this. I apparently had the wrong meaning of the word in my head at the time I wrote what I wrote. I have been sexually abused also, so I certainly would still be mixed up abit if I thought of it as a mistake, generally the way you look at that word. Sorry for the wrong impression. My old brain gets confused sometimes. ha. Thanks to Stephanie also, for trying to straighten me out! Stephanie is the best.


Hey, no apologies necessary :smileywink: I think we have all just been debating our views (or understanding) of rape as a mistake. I like that,the debate and hope its ok that we do that. You said stephanie straightened you out on it too...am I missing a post on here where stephanie discusses the notion of rape as a "terrible mistake" or about our posts? I dont see one and I dont want to miss any posts :smileyhappy:
Vivian
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Wrighty
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Re: the question of rape

Wrighty wrote:

I think everyone's thoughts are similar but it's the wording of the question that's causing the misunderstandings. Maybe if it was

Do you think that rape can be just a "terrible mistake"?

it may be a bit more clear. I interpreted the question to be asking if it could ever be a mistake, almost as if it were an accident. If the rapist had a good excuse (such as being drunk) then that's not what he intended therefore he's not guilty, or as guilty. It doesn't really count as rape even though the outcome is the same. He's not going to do it again so just erase that mistake and have a "do over". Is that how the question was intended?

As I already mentioned I don't think it's ever a mistake. It's a terrible crime that takes physical force. You can't rape someone by accident.



Vivico1 wrote:

Pretty much that's what I meant by putting the parentheses around the words "terrible mistake", that its never "just" a mistake or EVER a mistake. You say two things there that seem opposite to each other. You said in your last line, you can't rape anyone by mistake, and i TOTALLY agree with that. But up in the middle you say "If the rapist had a good excuse (such as being drunk) then that's not what he intended therefore he's not guilty, or as guilty. It doesn't really count as rape even though the outcome is the same."
If you can never rape by mistake, how can there be any "good excuse such as being drunk" that would make the act not count as a rape? Rape is rape, there is nothing that is a good excuse that makes it unintentional. Alcohol is not like the date rape drug. It doesnt make you unaware of whats going on,(unless you have blackouts and then without going into it on here, it gets more physically difficult for a man to have sex period much less the actions it takes to have sex with someone fighting you. Alcohol blackouts are not like mentally ill blackouts well like in the book Cage of Stars we read where Scott the schizophenic had one and killed) it just makes it ok to do whatever the heck you want to do regardless of anyone else. If I was on a jury and they told me, well he really didnt mean to do it, he was drunk, I would be more likely right then and there to want to convict him for his excuses for doing it, than if he said, yeah he did it, he knows he did and its eating him up that he could have done such a thing. If you are saying alcohol makes it less than a rape, or somehow a little excuseable, then again, we must agree to disagree because I agree completely with your one statement but never with the alcohol excuse. I find the alcohol excuse deplorable. (not your oppinion :smileywink: ok?) but the idea of it from anywhere out there.




Viv, I'm so sorry that didn't come out that clear. That whole middle paragraph was suppose to be describing the intent of the question and some excuses used for calling rape a mistake. Looking back, I didn't make that very clear AT ALL. Those aren't my feelings in any way, shape or form. I expressed my feelings in a previous post and in the last paragraph here. Rape is a crime not an accident. I'm so glad you brought that to my attention because that's probably the way everyone interpreted it and I didn't mean it that way. I do have to say that you were very tolerant of what you thought was my opinion. Thanks for being so understanding! :smileyhappy:
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vivico1
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Re: the question of rape


Wrighty wrote:




Viv, I'm so sorry that didn't come out that clear. That whole middle paragraph was suppose to be describing the intent of the question and some excuses used for calling rape a mistake. Looking back, I didn't make that very clear AT ALL. Those aren't my feelings in any way, shape or form. I expressed my feelings in a previous post and in the last paragraph here. Rape is a crime not an accident. I'm so glad you brought that to my attention because that's probably the way everyone interpreted it and I didn't mean it that way. I do have to say that you were very tolerant of what you thought was my opinion. Thanks for being so understanding! :smileyhappy:


no problem wrighty, I just wasnt sure which you meant but of course i was not offended by your post :smileywink: and it may have just been me that interpreted it that way LOL
Vivian
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kiakar
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Re: the question of rape



vivico1 wrote:

kiakar wrote:
Wrightly and Vivian;

Vivian and I have talked about this. I apparently had the wrong meaning of the word in my head at the time I wrote what I wrote. I have been sexually abused also, so I certainly would still be mixed up abit if I thought of it as a mistake, generally the way you look at that word. Sorry for the wrong impression. My old brain gets confused sometimes. ha. Thanks to Stephanie also, for trying to straighten me out! Stephanie is the best.


Hey, no apologies necessary :smileywink: I think we have all just been debating our views (or understanding) of rape as a mistake. I like that,the debate and hope its ok that we do that. You said stephanie straightened you out on it too...am I missing a post on here where stephanie discusses the notion of rape as a "terrible mistake" or about our posts? I dont see one and I dont want to miss any posts :smileyhappy:




Hey Viv: No, I didnt mean that Stephanie made a statement about our misunderstanding, just she just spoke on my theory at how I saw the word mistake. She is great at smoothing things over even when you least expect it. Maybe its just because I can read Stephanie like she can read me alot. We have been on clubs here and there for along time. Her comments are in this section though if you would like to read them.
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vivico1
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Re: the question of rape

Kiakar wrote:
Hey Viv: No, I didnt mean that Stephanie made a statement about our misunderstanding, just she just spoke on my theory at how I saw the word mistake. She is great at smoothing things over even when you least expect it. Maybe its just because I can read Stephanie like she can read me alot. We have been on clubs here and there for along time. Her comments are in this section though if you would like to read them.
____________________________________________________________________________________
This is so weird, I am beginning to wonder if I am missing some posts. I looked through this whole thread again Linda and checked for her post where you say spoke on your theory of what you saw mistake to mean and after 3 searches I couldnt find it! All I have, is her thread start post, one on spoilers, one on the Duke lacrosse thing, her honesty about money and thats all. What am I missing? Can you message to me what it says or something? Strange huh?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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intentions


kiakar wrote:


I get your meaning now! I guess I was using mistake as a wrong choice of a word for what I meant. oops!




It's funny how it can be hard to express the exact meaning or tone here in our discussions or in emails in general but Harlen Coben does a great job expressing the written word. I really like how sarcastic some of the characters are and that can be so hard to convey. I can literally hear them making these comments.
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Rog
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom

I would love to see Paul come back as a frequent Coben character. I was happy to see Muse come back again.
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Stephanie
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom

Rog,

I agree wholeheartedly. Then we could see how it turns out with Lucy. I'd also like to see Chamique a few years down the road, to know how she spends her cash.
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vivico1
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Courtroom


Stephanie wrote:
Rog,

I agree wholeheartedly. Then we could see how it turns out with Lucy. I'd also like to see Chamique a few years down the road, to know how she spends her cash.


I would hope that Paul and Lucy do make it if there were another book. I hate books and movies where at the end of the first one, they are married or in love and at the start of the next one, they have been divorced for a year or so and thats that. Chamique showing up would be cool, hadnt thought about her. What if she wound up working for Paul in some capacity :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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