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Stephanie
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Re: Uncle Sosh - Chapter 30 - Savages?

Kathy,

I suppose I'm with Linda- you just never know until you're in that spot. And it might depend upon who the loved one is, and in which situation. I believe I would do anything for my children, including fighting to the death anyone who intended them harm. I don't know if I could say the same thing about one or more of my siblings... after all, two of them carry guns. (Police) Might they be the ones saving me? :smileyhappy:
Stephanie
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cindersue
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Re: Uncle Sosh - Chapter 30 - Savages?


Stephanie wrote:
Kathy,

I suppose I'm with Linda- you just never know until you're in that spot. And it might depend upon who the loved one is, and in which situation. I believe I would do anything for my children, including fighting to the death anyone who intended them harm. I don't know if I could say the same thing about one or more of my siblings... after all, two of them carry guns. (Police) Might they be the ones saving me? :smileyhappy:




Ditto! I have 4 kids ... two have had more bad luck then others. Parenting is the hardest "job." As my children grow into young adults, I am starting to hear them say things I have injected in convo to them. Or overhear them say to their friends. But the growing process has not been easy. I would do anything to protect my children. Now to my siblings? Hmmmm, I'd rather wash my hands from them. :smileywink: Perhaps they are to old to listen. :smileywink:
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KathyS
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Uncle Sosh - another scenario...to think about

[ Edited ]

Stephanie wrote:
Kathy,

I suppose I'm with Linda- you just never know until you're in that spot. And it might depend upon who the loved one is, and in which situation. I believe I would do anything for my children, including fighting to the death anyone who intended them harm. I don't know if I could say the same thing about one or more of my siblings... after all, two of them carry guns. (Police) Might they be the ones saving me? :smileyhappy:


Stephanie, you're making me laugh...the whole point to what I was trying to say, is, it's not a matter of having someone save you, with or without a gun! :-)

Picture this.....two people, standing side by side....no clothes on (metaphorically equal if you like) and no gun in hands! You are both standing in front of a loaded gun, held in the hand of a perfect stranger. Got it so far? ;-) You both turn and look at each other....this person you're looking at is someone you love. This person loves you. I'm not talking degrees of love, relatives or not...just someone you love. Are these two people going to wait for the other to put themselves into the line of fire? Think about it now, don't wait until you're put on the spot...I'd hate to see you naked (metaphorically speaking, that is! :-) Just something to think about LOL....and you're right, who knows, because we all judge each other's value.

Kathy

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-22-200711:38 AM

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Stephanie
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Re: Uncle Sosh - another scenario...to think about

Sorry, didn't mean to mess up your scenario! I would probably only "protect" my children in that instance. I would expect another adult to get him/herself clear, while I did the same for myself. Or else, we could attack in tandem, if possible.

Here's a better one- If my husband were being eaten by a tiger, would I jump in that mess to save him? You bet. Would I do that for a stranger? I would try to help, but I don't know if I'd jump right in, risking myself.
Stephanie
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KathyS
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Re: Uncle Sosh - another scenario...to think about



Stephanie wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean to mess up your scenario! I would probably only "protect" my children in that instance. I would expect another adult to get him/herself clear, while I did the same for myself. Or else, we could attack in tandem, if possible.

Here's a better one- If my husband were being eaten by a tiger, would I jump in that mess to save him? You bet. Would I do that for a stranger? I would try to help, but I don't know if I'd jump right in, risking myself.



Stephanie, I can't stop laughing...talk about scenarios! Where in the heck did being eaten by a tiger come from????????!! LOL...Ok..ok, I give.....it's clear now, we save the kids first, help the stranger, and everyone else saves their own tushy!

Kathy
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vivico1
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Re: Uncle Sosh - another scenario...to think about


KathyS wrote:


Stephanie wrote:
Sorry, didn't mean to mess up your scenario! I would probably only "protect" my children in that instance. I would expect another adult to get him/herself clear, while I did the same for myself. Or else, we could attack in tandem, if possible.

Here's a better one- If my husband were being eaten by a tiger, would I jump in that mess to save him? You bet. Would I do that for a stranger? I would try to help, but I don't know if I'd jump right in, risking myself.



Stephanie, I can't stop laughing...talk about scenarios! Where in the heck did being eaten by a tiger come from????????!! LOL...Ok..ok, I give.....it's clear now, we save the kids first, help the stranger, and everyone else saves their own tushy!

Kathy


OK, you guys are willing to take on speeding cars, maybe speeding bullets lol, and lion and tigers and bears (oh my!) for your kids or someone you LOVE, but what about the other question faced in this book? Who would you KILL to protect yourself or another loved one? Would you kill anyone for your kids? Would you kill, or be the cause of the death, of this family member over that one? Or them over you??
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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KathyS
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Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.

I haven't answered my own question. So, I will answer all of these questions here, and now.

I would kill to protect someone or something I loved.... and I would die for someone I loved, even if they were a lowly friend, not just a family member...because I do have friends I would die for....if the someone I loved wasn't a murderer or criminal.

But it doesn't just come down to loving someone....The whole point of my bringing this subject to light was....the moral issue, and the issue of worth. Worth of the other person, and not necessarly just their worth, but your own. And the worth of what you'd die for.....

Sosh, or should I say Harlan, brings these subjects up and into our faces....what would we do?

We can all have differences of opinions. Everyone's opinions have worth. My opinion isn't worth any more than anyone elses. Sosh was the instigator of these thoughts. The results are the workings of his thoughts.

If someone is willing to die for their country - not just one person, not just a room full of people, but a country full of strangers.....are we willing to die, or kill for someone else? That is what I base my thoughts on. If you call it self defense, or if you want to call it defending - or if you want to call it survival, it all has value. Everyone has value. It's just our perspective of worth that changes that value.

Kathy S.
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vivico1
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Re: Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.


KathyS wrote:
I haven't answered my own question. So, I will answer all of these questions here, and now.

I would kill to protect someone or something I loved.... and I would die for someone I loved, even if they were a lowly friend, not just a family member...because I do have friends I would die for....if the someone I loved wasn't a murderer or criminal.

But it doesn't just come down to loving someone....The whole point of my bringing this subject to light was....the moral issue, and the issue of worth. Worth of the other person, and not necessarly just their worth, but your own. And the worth of what you'd die for.....

Sosh, or should I say Harlan, brings these subjects up and into our faces....what would we do?

We can all have differences of opinions. Everyone's opinions have worth. My opinion isn't worth any more than anyone elses. Sosh was the instigator of these thoughts. The results are the workings of his thoughts.

If someone is willing to die for their country - not just one person, not just a room full of people, but a country full of strangers.....are we willing to die, or kill for someone else? That is what I base my thoughts on. If you call it self defense, or if you want to call it defending - or if you want to call it survival, it all has value. Everyone has value. It's just our perspective of worth that changes that value.

Kathy S.


"Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God;" Doctrine and Covenants 18:10
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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LizzieAnn
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Re: Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.

I think it all boils down to what one would do for love and for those that they love. Until someone is in that position, one doesn't know what he/she would really do. For my family, I would do whatever was necessary to save/protect them, and I'd hope I would have the courage & strength to do whatever I had to.

The whole premise of what one would do for those they love is a strong one. Another B&N book discussion that I participated in last year also dealt with this: Dean Koontz's The Husband. The idea of an ordinary man or woman doing the extraordinary in extreme circumstances is powerful.
Liz ♥ ♥


Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested. ~ Francis Bacon
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KathyS
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Re: Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.

I, too, Liz, hope I would have the courage of my convictions.

Kathy S.

LizzieAnn wrote:
I think it all boils down to what one would do for love and for those that they love. Until someone is in that position, one doesn't know what he/she would really do. For my family, I would do whatever was necessary to save/protect them, and I'd hope I would have the courage & strength to do whatever I had to.

The whole premise of what one would do for those they love is a strong one. Another B&N book discussion that I participated in last year also dealt with this: Dean Koontz's The Husband. The idea of an ordinary man or woman doing the extraordinary in extreme circumstances is powerful.


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vivico1
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Not dying for someone but killing.

Ok, i dont think there is one person in here who doesnt hope that in any situation, they would protect their loved ones, children at all cost, even their own life. I dont doubt that one bit, I think we all hope we have that in us. But no one has answered the second part of the question, about killing (you cant say giving up someone to die to save your own life is self defense) or Ira killing Gil and nearly killing Paul, to protect Lucy...protect her what, her lifestyle? emotions? It wasnt her actual life, no one was going to kill her, you cant say that is justified. So given that yesss we would all lay down our lives for our children and protect them against real threats, what about the other question? Paul's father giving up his inlaws to save his family? Is his family more worthy of life then theirs? Or like Ira, would you kill anyone to keep what he percieves is a family secret to "save" his daughter? Thats a very different question than what we keep getting back to here. NO doubt everyone here would do what it takes to protect their family, thats a given. But that is not this second part of the question, or i should say this second question. As a matter of fact, is Ira killing Gil and then possibly Paul to protect Lucy from her past so terribly different than those boys' fathers being willing to destroy other's lives to "save" their sons' futures? When we say, I would hope I would do ANYTHING, to protect my family or loved ones, what is that anything and protect them from what? Would you kill to protect say their future, would you give up part of your family, to save another part? Thats a much harder question than would you kill in self defense for your family or would you die for them. Would you do what these characters here did? Or like in the example I gave of Sophie's Choice in a death camp....if you were told, give up one of your two children to the gas chambers or I will send them both , right now! Would you give up one to save at least one? How would you , could you decide such a thing? Ira is killing people, not to save Lucy's actual life and Paul's father gave up his inlaws to save himself and his own. What would you do in these situations?
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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KathyS
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Re: Early Chapters Discussion: Uncle Sosh

This subject of Sosh has brought up, on this discussion, more than just his 'over simplification' of what he calls a "silly game".

We talk of moral issues, and we talk of the rights and wrongs of a conundrum called the human condition. When you put a face on someone, it means you have to look that someone in the eye. When you cover that face with speculation, that face just becomes a thought, a vision, or a hypothetical.

It's painful when you think about it, when you're faced with the reality of taking away, or allowing the taking of, someones life. To chose someone's death, in killing them, or substitute your life for theirs, or theirs for yours, or having to make a choice between two people. There is no fairness in any of these acts. Is there justification?

Sosh brought up the point, how many do you kill, to save a nation for freedom? Where does it start, and where does it end? Deaths that are senseless to some, may be be justified by others. That is the dilemma, or the conundrum that we see here.....we can go round and round until you find yourself going around again. Did you, or do you, find yourself in the middle of these thoughts of Sosh's? It's for each of us, as indiduals, to find our way out of that middle. And I'm not sure if it's possible.

Kathy S.
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vivico1
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Re: Easy out and HUH?


KathyS wrote:
This subject of Sosh has brought up, on this discussion, more than just his 'over simplification' of what he calls a "silly game".

We talk of moral issues, and we talk of the rights and wrongs of a conundrum called the human condition. When you put a face on someone, it means you have to look that someone in the eye. When you cover that face with speculation, that face just becomes a thought, a vision, or a hypothetical.

It's painful when you think about it, when you're faced with the reality of taking away, or allowing the taking of, someones life. To chose someone's death, in killing them, or substitute your life for theirs, or theirs for yours, or having to make a choice between two people. There is no fairness in any of these acts. Is there justification?

Sosh brought up the point, how many do you kill, to save a nation for freedom? Where does it start, and where does it end? Deaths that are senseless to some, may be be justified by others. That is the dilemma, or the conundrum that we see here.....we can go round and round until you find yourself going around again. Did you, or do you, find yourself in the middle of these thoughts of Sosh's? It's for each of us, as indiduals, to find our way out of that middle. And I'm not sure if it's possible.

Kathy S.



Well, i guess that is a good, non-answer answer.

And "When you cover that face with speculation, that face just becomes a thought, a vision, or a hypothetical." What???? I get, "When you put a face on someone, it means you have to look that someone in the eye." If we had put a face on 6 million Jews, they may still be here. If we had put a real face on Stalin, maybe the 5-10 million of the people who died under his thumb would be alive. Putting a face on someone, makes us face that they are humans with rights to live! But what does covering a face in speculation making it just a thought or vision or hypothetical mean? Do you mean, if we "speculate" what we would do given a certain set of circumstances, all we can do is present a hypothetical answer? Now that I understand but thats what makes for good discussions and things to ponder on, about one's own life even. Maybe its the way the sentance is worded, but dont let me put words in your mouth if thats not what you meant. I just dont get what you mean by that sentance at all. It was kind of a HUH?? to me.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Stephanie
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Re: Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.

Liz,

Good point- reminds me of those stories of moms ripping the car door from its frame in order to get the child out. It's amazing what we'll do and how we'll react when threatened. In my youth, I became belligerent. I was robbed at gunpoint at age 19 - I said, about the gun, "I know you have it, so get it out of my neck." Perhaps at that age we don't believe we can die, even when death is breathing down our neck. Who knows what I would do today, more than 20 years later?

As to killing people for my loved ones- that would take extreme provocation. A person would have to be in the act of threatening bodily harm to me or mine, and then yes, I could kill.
Stephanie
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vivico1
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Re: Dieing/living, or killing for someone, or something.


Stephanie wrote:
Liz,

Good point- reminds me of those stories of moms ripping the car door from its frame in order to get the child out. It's amazing what we'll do and how we'll react when threatened. In my youth, I became belligerent. I was robbed at gunpoint at age 19 - I said, about the gun, "I know you have it, so get it out of my neck." Perhaps at that age we don't believe we can die, even when death is breathing down our neck. Who knows what I would do today, more than 20 years later?

As to killing people for my loved ones- that would take extreme provocation. A person would have to be in the act of threatening bodily harm to me or mine, and then yes, I could kill.


now thats a good straight forward answer,about killing to protect anyway. ty stephanie. I guess too, part of what I have been trying to get at here, is the moral side of people hurting other people for the sake of their loved ones' lifestyle or "future". We saw that in the book. The boys fathers trying any underhanded hurtful thing they could do, to protect their boys' reps and future, Ira, to save Lucy more heartache and Paul's father to "save" his family over his inlaws or killing his wife later himself. These, for the most part are not saving our loved ones lives at all cost, (maybe with Paul's dad in Russia) but killing or harming to save a way of life. Thats what i was getting at, when i ask protect what at any cost? There is a much much more moral dilemna to those actions, are they justified at all, than killing to protect your loved one who is being physically threatened. I dont see any moral dilemna in killing someone trying to kill someone i love.
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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Wrighty
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Re: Easy out and HUH?

I've been away for a few days and I've been missing out on really good discussions. It figures. These are terrible hypothetical situations to have to think about. Hopefully, thinking about them is all we'll ever have to do. This story and the group brought up some really good questions on this topic. Dieing for someone else and killing for someone else are the main issues. Of course we all would like to think we would do the right thing in these instances but in these instances - what exactly is the right thing? I know I would do anything to protect my children including giving my life for them. I think and I would hope I would do the right thing if my children ever got into legal trouble. If they broke the law they would need to face the consequences but I would be right there with them along the way. (Please may they never break the law!) But as we saw in the book with the frat boys and with Gil Perez and his family, there are many different scenarios for this. It's not all black and white, right or wrong. These were scared teenagers who did the wrong things but for different reasons. Their parents were also protecting them for different reasons. The frat boys parents believed they were helping their children but in doing so they were denying the victim justice and trying to avoid the consequences/punishment that their boys deserved. Reputations were at stake here not lives. Gil's parents believed that they were protecting their son's life. He may have been involved in the murders but it was coincidental not intentional and he didn't commit the crime. If he hadn't run he would have been killed.

I know I would give my life for my children, my husband and my family. I wouldn't want to but I would if it came to that. When I became a parent I became more cautious in my choices in life because I had people totally dependent on me now. I always wanted to sky dive but that won't be happening any time soon. I drive slower, always wear seat belts and try to use common sense in my decision making. I have a life and I have fun but if it's stupid, too dangerous or possibly life threatening - well it will just have to wait until my kids are grown, secure on their own and independently wealthy so they can pay my hospital bills. :smileywink: I brought them into this world and it is my responsibility and pure pleasure to help them through it as my parents have done for me.

I never would want to take a life but if there were no other choice and if they were threatening my life or others I probably could do it. There is really no simple way to make that decision and for me it would depend on so many factors (would myself or others definitely die otherwise? Is this person going to murder us outright or would our deaths just occur because of them - not enough food or something, is there time to look for another solution or is this an imminent threat... It wouldn't be easy nor should it be when you are deciding to take another person's life.

Obviously I'm not giving any straight answers here but I don't think there are any. It just depends on so much and I think that's how Harlan presented it to us. Different people with different families and different links to the murders in the woods and also the crime at the frat house when the boys committed rape. And then of course there are the peripheral crimes connected to these crimes. People committed different acts to hide or cover up the initial crimes. It became a widening circle of lies and offenses. Harlan made my head spin with all of the possibilities and even if I didn't agree with people's actions and reactions I could understand most of them.

I'm still talking in circles aren't I? :smileysad:
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KathyS
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Re: Easy out and HUH?

Vivian, I have tried not to get into a personal discussion on these subjects, keeping them within, more or less, the confines of these characters' points of views. But these subjects are difficult to keep confined.

I've never meant to be evasive, but always trying to keep these subjects in a *general* perspective. I guess generalizations, and philosophizing over these characters' points of view, seemingly points that finger back in my direction. You want straight answers, and you think this subject is only straight if it comes from me personally?

You asked the question - to choose between two of my children, which life could I give up?...I have two children, and I'd give my life first, before I made that choice.

And if I had to choose between myself and those millions of Jews that had their lives taken from them, I'd give my life to save them.

My only point was, it's easier to make the choice, if you don't see their face, rather than see their face first---to know them, and feel their love. And we are talking in generalizations now, not talking about the Jews.

Again, my example, two people standing side by side. One's face is covered, but the other face is uncovered, and you know who that person is....which one would be the one, if having to make that choice, would you choose to a sentence of death?

I couldn't make that decision...because we are all equal in the eyes of God, but again, and maybe again, and again...it's not a choice I would ever want to make, but as a nation of people, what would that choice mean to you, and to me? To defend your country, and not see the eyes of these strangers in these other countries. The question of, as Sosh points to, are we a country of people wanting to just survive?....I'm not defending his point of view......Is killing, or wars, ever justified? Moral issues, rights issues, and religious issues, it's all there in front of us....I may bring up questions to everyone on these subjects, in these groups, and I may personally know the answers to my own questions, but I'm not going to be challenged to answer them outside the context of these book discussions.

I hope my answers give you a little more clarification. If not, I've just plumb run out of words, I'm sorry......It's been a challenging discussion, and I thank you, but I've come to the end of my thoughts.

Kathy S.
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vivico1
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Re: Easy out and HUH?

KathyS wrote:
You asked the question - to choose between two of my children, which life could I give up?...I have two children, and I'd give my life first, before I made that choice.

Vivico1 wrote:
we all agreed and agreed on that, that was not the question here. The question that she had to face that was a horrendous one was...not would you give up your life for your children BUT, if you were told to choose one to go to the gas chambers so the other could live or if you dont choose, its not your life, its BOTH of theirs, what would you (meaning anyone in this club, but since no one answered but you, I will ask you) what would you do? If you dont choose, both die, if you do choose, how? What a horrendous thing! What do you do?

KathyS wrote:
My only point was, it's easier to make the choice, if you don't see their face, rather than see their face first---to know them, and feel their love. And we are talking in generalizations now, not talking about the Jews.

Vivico1 wrote: and THAT was my point and that generality does apply to the Jews. It was easier to make a choice to stay isolationists as long as we werent looking at their faces, when we finally did, when we saw the faces of those still alive, or trying to be, then we were horrified by what we let happen till it hit us at home.

KathyS wrote:
Again, my example, two people standing side by side. One's face is covered, but the other face is uncovered, and you know who that person is, which one would be the one, if having to make that choice, would you choose to a sentence of death?.....I hope my answers give you a little more clarification.

Vivico1 wrote:
That definately clarifies the one sentance you wrote that yes was ask specifically of you , where you said...
And "When you cover that face with speculation, that face just becomes a thought, a vision, or a hypothetical."

That line was maybe a nice flowery intellectual sounding question but was not nearly as direct and clear as the one you wrote now, much better. ty for clearing that up.

KathyS wrote:
I may bring up questions to everyone on these subjects, in these groups, and I may personally know the answers to my own questions, but I'm not going to be challenged to answer them outside the context of these book discussions.

Vivico1 wrote:
Well thats not really fair is it? To bring up the questions to others in the group but then not be willing to answer them yourself?
I have no problems in talking in hypotheticals about topics in these books. I think they are even more meaningful if you can hypothetically question yourself because of things you read in them. It may be fiction, but the ideas dont have to stay with the characters on the pages. There are some books you simply can not leave on the pages. You can with this one, if a person wants, and just keep it a good suspenseful story and thats great too! Great entertainment. But when some of the other questions came out of it, then yes, I went deeper too and put out there some deeper ones. I wanted to hear lots of discussions on the questions, even if the answers were just..I really dont know what I would do. Thats a real answer. What I was saying is no one was answering at all, just going back to the one over and over of , yes i lay down my life for my kids. Heck even in the book, no one was doing that, they were laying down someone else's life for their kids! lol :smileywink:

Kathy, most of my questions were for general consumption. The fact that there were only about 4-5 of us talking and we would ask about each others questions or give our oppinions on what others said means yeah, I am going to single you out on some of yours, if they intrigue me enough to do so. Its just a dialogue, or even a debate if you like but I love to debate ideas. Debating doesnt always mean disagreeing either and many things you wrote i didnt disagree with and some things i wrote, some others did disagree with. I just wanted someone to engage that question, not by pass it, or offer a non-answer, answer. Great politics lol but not good discussion clarity.

Good reading on your next selections.:smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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KathyS
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This is a book discussion, not a debate.

[ Edited ]
Vivian,
I will not debate, and I will not be challenged, by you or anyone. I was trying to accommodate you by giving you, at least what I thought, a clearer picture of my thoughts. I don't expect anyone to give me answers on these boards, if they choose not to answer my questions...I don't confront them, nor do I challenge them because of their answers.

This is called a book discussion, not a debate. If you want a debate, then I suggest you run for an office. And as far as choosing between my children, if you had children, you'd know what I'm talking about. Now, I don't feel the need to continue this discussion any further. I think I've made myself clear enough.

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-27-200701:01 AM

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vivico1
Posts: 3,456
Registered: ‎10-19-2006
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Re: This is a book discussion,that's debatable.


KathyS wrote:
Vivian,
I will not debate, and I will not be challenged, by you or anyone. I was trying to accommodate you by giving you, at least what I thought, a clearer picture of my thoughts. I don't expect anyone to give me answers on these boards, if they choose not to answer my questions...I don't confront them, nor do I challenge them because of their answers.

This is called a book discussion, not a debate. If you want a debate, then I suggest you run for an office. And as far as choosing between my children, if you had children, you'd know what I'm talking about. Now, I don't feel the need to continue this discussion any further. I think I've made myself clear enough.

Message Edited by KathyS on 05-27-200701:01 AM




I think you equate debate with argument. I dont. I think its part of the thinking process of good discussion. And I am sorry if you felt "challenged" on what I asked you (or anyone). I asked on that one question specifically about what you meant, I even said, it could be me, but I didnt understand. And I thanked you twice for your clarification. As for the hypothetical,you dont have to address any of the things I want to discuss, its not like I call you out for not discussing. I throw them out there for any and everyone. And some of the few who do respond, did on many of the threads. I sure hope your weekend goes better, you seem upset. Its the end of this club, lets take a breather, it will be a new month soon and new books. And dont get so upset by the word "debate". In a book club, you will find many aspects of things going on that what they mean or why they are happening will be very debateable, and then is when you get more people talking. It sure beats the simple...oh that was a good chapter, why yes it was, and then nothing else and people move on. That much I have seen that in some clubs and even if thats all someone wants to say, thats ok, I am just saying, even in that, its more enjoyable to say what you liked about the chapter, in a "book club". These are bookclubs, not fanclubs (tho most of us do become fans of some authors) or is it just a book review, like "The Critic's Corner" where you come in say I LOVED IT, or Was ok but nothing special, and move on to some other book, never to be heard from again. Lets talk, lets discuss , lets debate subject matter, and if that is uncomfortable with you as an individual (again meaning anyone ok?) then you just dont discuss that one. No big deal, no set agenda, good open discussion. Again, have a good holiday weekend. :smileywink:
Vivian
~Those who do not read are no better off than those who can not.~ Chinese proverb
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