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Proper-T
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Could they be related?

Ok, so I'm re-reading the books (like many other people I'm sure) and I just finished PoA. And I'm noticing a bunch of Similarities between Dumbledore and Lupin, and it made me wonder if it could be possible they're related... of course at the moment there's no way to know, but let me at least list the clues.

And we know most of Dumbles traits already right?? But for theory's sake I'll be using the ones that help my theory along. In fact, not even just traits, but specifics of both Remus and DD doing slightly the same thing.
--

Dumbledore's twinkling eyes. In every book, we hear about the twinkle- or lack there of when he's not happy; of Dumbledore's eyes. In PoA Lupin's eye's are listed as twinkling.

Page 154, middle of the page: "Harry looked at him. Lupin's eyes were twinkling."
--

Dumbledore tends to smile at the most odd moments, and take things lightly.

PoA. 131, Peeves is singing "Loony, Loopy, Lupin" and Lupin just smiles. He goes on to say "I'd take that gum out of the keyhole if I were you Peeves," he said pleasantly.

Who says things pleasantly?? Dumbledore of course. GoF- Page 452, Hermione is banging on Hagrid's door to tell him they don't care if he's Half Giant when Dumbledore opens the door:

"Good afternoon" he said pleasntly, smiling down at them.
"We- er- we wanted to see Hagrid," said Hermione in a rather small voice.
"Yes, I surmised as much," said Dumbledore his eyes twinkling. (Just an example of his eyes twinkiling, that happened to be close).
--

We all know Harry's had the feeling of Snape and Dumbledore seeming to read his mind, but let's not forget Lupin too:

PoA- 187, "It has nothing to do with weakness," said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind.
--

In the OoTP 611, when Harry's been taken to DD's office by Umbrdige, and Fudge questions Harry, he's about to say a defiant Yes, when he sees Dumbledore: "but as Harry stared at him (Dumbledore), he shook his head a fraction of an inch to each side."

In PoA page 288, when Snape is asking Lupin of his opinion on the Maruser's Map, Harry get's 'the impression that Lupin is dong some very quick thinking' after Snape hurries him for an answer- 'Lupin looked up and, by the merest half-glance in Harry's direction, warned him not to interrupt'

Not exactly the same motion, but never the less the same idea.
--

The whole OoTP scene with Dumbeldore and Harry in his office, about to explain the Prophecy has a couple of things. In more serious matters- the way Dumbledore speaks in a 'crisis' is usually quite reserved. Not something many of the characters do well.

823- '"What don't I know?" asked Dumbledore calmly.'
831- '"Like the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you," said Dumbledore quietly.
832- '"Harry you know Professor Snape had no choice but to pretend not to take you seriously in front of Dolores Umbridge," said Dumbeldore steadily.
833- '"I trust Severus Snape." said Dumbeldore simply.
833- '"I am aware of it," said Dumbeldore heavily.

He doesn't get mad, he just keeps focused at the matter at hand.

In PoA the scene, er... better make that chapters; with Sirius, Peter and the Trio, show Lupin's manner's are quite the same as well.

348- '"No, he's not." said Lupin quietly. "He's a wizard."'
351- '"Why can't it be true?" Lupin said calmly.'
355- '"A thought that still haunts me," said Lupin heavily.
367- 'Black's wand arm rose, but Lupin siezed him around the wrist, gave him a warning look, then turned again to Pettigrew, his voice light and casual.'
369- '"I must admit, Peter, I have difficulty in understanding why an innocent man would want to spend twelve years as a rat." said Lupin evenly.

Of course there were moments when, he was a bit madder but mostly he was calm about the whole thing- like Dumbledore would be.

And let's not forget my two favorite calm moments between the two men:

Dumbledore's- OoTP, 814 '"We both know there are other ways to of destroying a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldermort as though he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall.'

The second- a bit further down on 814- '"You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldermort and speaking lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks.'

Remus- PoA, 351- '"Why can't it be true?" Lupin said calmly, as though they were in class and Hermione had simply spotted a problem in an experiment with grindylows.'

The second- 366- '"Well, hello, Peter," said Lupin pleasntly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him.'

The way she compares both of their actions to something else, coincidence, or not?
--

Maybe they are just concidence's, maybe they aren't. But it was fun thinking about it. I know Patty thinks Lupin may be evil, but here I am with a complete reverse... any comments on this??

And may I also add that the most far fetched idea I managed out of my theory had to do with Lupin saying his father had angered Greyback... does Dumbledore not fit the description of someone who could anger Greyback?? And when Lupin left Dumbledore said good bye "soberly". I don't actually think Remus is Dumbledore's son but hey... you never know.
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Psychee
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Re: Could they be related?

At this point, we don't have any information which would refute the thought that Lupin is related to Dumbledore... I suppose it is possible. The only thing we know of Lupin is that he is a half-blood, and since it was his father who angered Fenrir, I suppose it was his mother who was a muggle.

But the things you point out about the commonalities of the two really just show that they are alike in certain personality attributes, and those attributes are pretty common ones of "nice guys with wisdom", aren't they?

Take, for example, "Twinkling eyes". That's just a short-hand way of saying that someone shows amusement in their eyes, right? People say it about me all the time -- especially when they see me with children... I'd give anything in the world to be related to a real life Dumbledore, but I'm not... :smileysad:

Then there is the calm way that they both react to situations... some of that similarity comes from the fact that they both have a good sense of humor and to a certain extent can lay back and enjoy the ridiculousness around them... coping with Snape and Peeves for example.. And they are both, first and foremost, gentlemen, so politeness is part of their personal code...

And where Dumbledore has the experience of 150 years of life to explain his utter calmness, Lupin becomes a crazed and frenzied animal once a month -- and anything next to that must seem far less stressful, don't you think?

And the reading minds thing... well, we of course see this through Harry's viewpoint at the same time he is hoping that they will read his mind... and although it is possible that Lupin and Dumbledore each have a certain degree of giftedness in sensing what others are feeling or thinking, I think Harry makes that pretty easy for anyone whom he trusts... he doesn't put up walls... he wants and needs the sense of connectedness, I think...

Anyway, I think it is more than coincidence. These men have a lot in common in terms of their personality profile -- their goodness, their calmness, their sense of humor, their maturity, their intelligence, their sheer lovability... but I think we would need more than that to think of them being blood relations... unless you can think of a reason why the story might need them to be relatives...?
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BobbiAnne
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Re: Could they be related?

I also think it MAY be coincidence, but JKR has said that DD's family may be a useful line of inquiry-we are all assuming she means his goat-loving brother, Aberforth, Hog's Head Barman. Maybe Harry will interrogate Aberforth and get nothing, but some unexpected info will come from Lupin...
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

Very Fair points. But to help it along, of course it could be said that these are coincidence but why are they coincidence's that resemble Dumbledore's personality?

I'm trying to recall if I rememeber any other characters being described as having 'twinkling eyes', but I only "really" just noticed the Lupin reference to his eyes twinkling this reading. So if another character has it, I know I don't remember. Personally, Dumbles eyes have been described as twinkling so much that I automatically think of him when I see the phrase and for Lupin to have it as well, just caught my attention.

And we have other nice guys in the book too, but none of them have displayed the calmness that Lupin has displayed except Dumbledore. Maybe it does have to do with the fact that once a month Lupin becomes a wolf, or it's simply in his genes...

The politeness code... you'll get no arguments from me there, all the true gentleman in the book have been polite.

And I won't argue the Harry doesn't put up walls with the people he trusts point either... but I will say, Harry has gotten the mind reading thing right, hasn't he? Because both Snape and Dumbledore can Legilimens. But he did guess it in someone he doesn't trust- Snape, while his walls were surely up, so if it turns out Lupin can Legilimen's then I would have no doubt he learned it from Dumbledore.

And can I think of a reason why it would be needed for Lupin to be Dumbledore's son??? My best guess would be that it would have to do with some sort of Dumbledore family secret that in order to be revealed would need two members of the family, and then Lupin would step in or Aberforth woukd bring him in... and again as far fetched as that sounds that's my best guess :smileyvery-happy:

But seriously, I just thought it was interesting. Especailly as Patty had evil reasons, it just amazes me how two people can see things so differently.





Psychee wrote:
At this point, we don't have any information which would refute the thought that Lupin is related to Dumbledore... I suppose it is possible. The only thing we know of Lupin is that he is a half-blood, and since it was his father who angered Fenrir, I suppose it was his mother who was a muggle.

But the things you point out about the commonalities of the two really just show that they are alike in certain personality attributes, and those attributes are pretty common ones of "nice guys with wisdom", aren't they?

Take, for example, "Twinkling eyes". That's just a short-hand way of saying that someone shows amusement in their eyes, right? People say it about me all the time -- especially when they see me with children... I'd give anything in the world to be related to a real life Dumbledore, but I'm not... :smileysad:

Then there is the calm way that they both react to situations... some of that similarity comes from the fact that they both have a good sense of humor and to a certain extent can lay back and enjoy the ridiculousness around them... coping with Snape and Peeves for example.. And they are both, first and foremost, gentlemen, so politeness is part of their personal code...

And where Dumbledore has the experience of 150 years of life to explain his utter calmness, Lupin becomes a crazed and frenzied animal once a month -- and anything next to that must seem far less stressful, don't you think?

And the reading minds thing... well, we of course see this through Harry's viewpoint at the same time he is hoping that they will read his mind... and although it is possible that Lupin and Dumbledore each have a certain degree of giftedness in sensing what others are feeling or thinking, I think Harry makes that pretty easy for anyone whom he trusts... he doesn't put up walls... he wants and needs the sense of connectedness, I think...

Anyway, I think it is more than coincidence. These men have a lot in common in terms of their personality profile -- their goodness, their calmness, their sense of humor, their maturity, their intelligence, their sheer lovability... but I think we would need more than that to think of them being blood relations... unless you can think of a reason why the story might need them to be relatives...?


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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

And to add more wood to the fires:

We know that Fenrir likes to raise the kids he bites, but Lupin escaped this life. How did he manage this?

And Dumbledore went through an awful lot of work to make sure Lupin got in to school didn't he?

And there's always that Gryffindor link between the two.

:smileyhappy:
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

Yes JK just wants us to think she means Aberforth, but it's all a clever ruse :smileywink:

Thanx for the maybe's by the way people, at least I know I'm not completely insane... yet.



BobbiAnne wrote:
I also think it MAY be coincidence, but JKR has said that DD's family may be a useful line of inquiry-we are all assuming she means his goat-loving brother, Aberforth, Hog's Head Barman. Maybe Harry will interrogate Aberforth and get nothing, but some unexpected info will come from Lupin...


I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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BobbiAnne
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Re: Could they be related?

I think there are a few things that are a maybe at this point-you did a fantastic job of pointing one of them out. There are so many theories that can be shot down with a good quote from JKR-but this is NOT one of them...there aren't many things that haven't been asked yet (those seem to be the ones that turn up in the books, aren't they?)-so I will think of you and smile as I read if this turns out to be true.
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kmelissa
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Re: Could they be related?



Proper-T wrote:
Ok, so I'm re-reading the books (like many other people I'm sure) and I just finished PoA. And I'm noticing a bunch of Similarities between Dumbledore and Lupin, and it made me wonder if it could be possible they're related... of course at the moment there's no way to know, but let me at least list the clues.

And we know most of Dumbles traits already right?? But for theory's sake I'll be using the ones that help my theory along. In fact, not even just traits, but specifics of both Remus and DD doing slightly the same thing.
--

Dumbledore's twinkling eyes. In every book, we hear about the twinkle- or lack there of when he's not happy; of Dumbledore's eyes. In PoA Lupin's eye's are listed as twinkling.

Page 154, middle of the page: "Harry looked at him. Lupin's eyes were twinkling."
--

Dumbledore tends to smile at the most odd moments, and take things lightly.

PoA. 131, Peeves is singing "Loony, Loopy, Lupin" and Lupin just smiles. He goes on to say "I'd take that gum out of the keyhole if I were you Peeves," he said pleasantly.

Who says things pleasantly?? Dumbledore of course. GoF- Page 452, Hermione is banging on Hagrid's door to tell him they don't care if he's Half Giant when Dumbledore opens the door:

"Good afternoon" he said pleasntly, smiling down at them.
"We- er- we wanted to see Hagrid," said Hermione in a rather small voice.
"Yes, I surmised as much," said Dumbledore his eyes twinkling. (Just an example of his eyes twinkiling, that happened to be close).
--

We all know Harry's had the feeling of Snape and Dumbledore seeming to read his mind, but let's not forget Lupin too:

PoA- 187, "It has nothing to do with weakness," said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind.
--

In the OoTP 611, when Harry's been taken to DD's office by Umbrdige, and Fudge questions Harry, he's about to say a defiant Yes, when he sees Dumbledore: "but as Harry stared at him (Dumbledore), he shook his head a fraction of an inch to each side."

In PoA page 288, when Snape is asking Lupin of his opinion on the Maruser's Map, Harry get's 'the impression that Lupin is dong some very quick thinking' after Snape hurries him for an answer- 'Lupin looked up and, by the merest half-glance in Harry's direction, warned him not to interrupt'

Not exactly the same motion, but never the less the same idea.
--

The whole OoTP scene with Dumbeldore and Harry in his office, about to explain the Prophecy has a couple of things. In more serious matters- the way Dumbledore speaks in a 'crisis' is usually quite reserved. Not something many of the characters do well.

823- '"What don't I know?" asked Dumbledore calmly.'
831- '"Like the person Sirius cared most about in the world was you," said Dumbledore quietly.
832- '"Harry you know Professor Snape had no choice but to pretend not to take you seriously in front of Dolores Umbridge," said Dumbeldore steadily.
833- '"I trust Severus Snape." said Dumbeldore simply.
833- '"I am aware of it," said Dumbeldore heavily.

He doesn't get mad, he just keeps focused at the matter at hand.

In PoA the scene, er... better make that chapters; with Sirius, Peter and the Trio, show Lupin's manner's are quite the same as well.

348- '"No, he's not." said Lupin quietly. "He's a wizard."'
351- '"Why can't it be true?" Lupin said calmly.'
355- '"A thought that still haunts me," said Lupin heavily.
367- 'Black's wand arm rose, but Lupin siezed him around the wrist, gave him a warning look, then turned again to Pettigrew, his voice light and casual.'
369- '"I must admit, Peter, I have difficulty in understanding why an innocent man would want to spend twelve years as a rat." said Lupin evenly.

Of course there were moments when, he was a bit madder but mostly he was calm about the whole thing- like Dumbledore would be.

And let's not forget my two favorite calm moments between the two men:

Dumbledore's- OoTP, 814 '"We both know there are other ways to of destroying a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldermort as though he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall.'

The second- a bit further down on 814- '"You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldermort and speaking lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks.'

Remus- PoA, 351- '"Why can't it be true?" Lupin said calmly, as though they were in class and Hermione had simply spotted a problem in an experiment with grindylows.'

The second- 366- '"Well, hello, Peter," said Lupin pleasntly, as though rats frequently erupted into old school friends around him.'

The way she compares both of their actions to something else, coincidence, or not?
--

Maybe they are just concidence's, maybe they aren't. But it was fun thinking about it. I know Patty thinks Lupin may be evil, but here I am with a complete reverse... any comments on this??

And may I also add that the most far fetched idea I managed out of my theory had to do with Lupin saying his father had angered Greyback... does Dumbledore not fit the description of someone who could anger Greyback?? And when Lupin left Dumbledore said good bye "soberly". I don't actually think Remus is Dumbledore's son but hey... you never know.




I actually think all of the "similarities" you pointed out are just a matter of semantics. JKR simply used the same adverbs and adjectives and general descriptions (that she commonly uses throughout the books). Otherwise, I see no connection.
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

Thanx for the vote of confidence... and if this did turn out to be right, I'd probably stop reading... because I would have fainted of course :smileywink: but then I'd read the rest with a smile as well. :smileyhappy:



BobbiAnne wrote:
I think there are a few things that are a maybe at this point-you did a fantastic job of pointing one of them out. There are so many theories that can be shot down with a good quote from JKR-but this is NOT one of them...there aren't many things that haven't been asked yet (those seem to be the ones that turn up in the books, aren't they?)-so I will think of you and smile as I read if this turns out to be true.


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Psychee
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Re: Could they be related?

If there is a blood relationship, I really doubt it would be as close as father-son, due to the tremendous age difference between them. Dumbledore would have been what? over 100 years old at the time of Lupin's birth? He could be as much as a fifth generation grandfather to him...

Moving away from Lupin for a second, though...

Do any of you think that JKR would include in her world the idea of a re-incarnating Merlin? It sounds kind of bizarre to me, but

(1) she seems to have gone out of her way to include many many similarities of Dumbledore to Merlin AND

(2) that awful scene in the cave where he is saying "Kill me, it is all my fault" is extremely reminiscent of a story of Merlin in which he caused a war resulting in 80,000 deaths. Merlin went crazy with guilt after that episode and lived in the woods as a wild man until a saint reached out to help him. He was then killed.

If it weren't for that guilty cave scene, I would just be thinking along the lines of Merlin-as-relative. But a relative wouldn't have Merlin's memories...
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

I agree to a degree, it could be semantics, there are but so many ways to say certain things. However, JK is a very er... 'wordy' person (as you can see I am not). But to look at the words she chooses to use for Lupin, you can't over look the similarities.

Hagrid does not sigh heavily. When Mr. Weasley is upset at something he gives it away in his voice and his face- a trait he passed to his childrem by the way. Sirius's anger, happiness, or whatever is apparent in his voice as well. Severus never sounds happy... Moody, is paranoid and will hex you first, ask question's later.
Need I go on??? Maybe she just created another character to be calm, or there's more there...




kmelissa wrote:



I actually think all of the "similarities" you pointed out are just a matter of semantics. JKR simply used the same adverbs and adjectives and general descriptions (that she commonly uses throughout the books). Otherwise, I see no connection.


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phrodo41
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Re: Could they be related?

I do hope we get more interesting backstory on Lupin's family. What if he is Abeforth's son, ie, Dumbledore's nephew? If nothing else, it would certainly give us some more insight into the Werewolf prank.

The problem with big revelations about characters being secretly related is that there would need to be a reason for someone's relations to be kept secret. For example, if Lupin is Dumbledore's nephew, why wouldn't people know already?
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

Ooh, Aberforth's nephew, I like that one. Especially as we have no idea if Aberforth is older or younger, or by how many years...

And as for why they wouldn't know, well we can't be sure how many people actually know Aberforth is Dumbledore's brother, but it seems a low amount- mostly Order members at the moment. So it wouldn't be a stretch that no one knew Lupin was Albus's nephew then, would it??




phrodo41 wrote:
I do hope we get more interesting backstory on Lupin's family. What if he is Abeforth's son, ie, Dumbledore's nephew? If nothing else, it would certainly give us some more insight into the Werewolf prank.

The problem with big revelations about characters being secretly related is that there would need to be a reason for someone's relations to be kept secret. For example, if Lupin is Dumbledore's nephew, why wouldn't people know already?


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phrodo41
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Re: Could they be related?

I guess we'd also need a plausible reason for his name to be Remus Lupin instead of Remus Dumbledore...
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kmelissa
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Re: Could they be related?



Proper-T wrote:
I agree to a degree, it could be semantics, there are but so many ways to say certain things. However, JK is a very er... 'wordy' person (as you can see I am not). But to look at the words she chooses to use for Lupin, you can't over look the similarities.

Hagrid does not sigh heavily. When Mr. Weasley is upset at something he gives it away in his voice and his face- a trait he passed to his childrem by the way. Sirius's anger, happiness, or whatever is apparent in his voice as well. Severus never sounds happy... Moody, is paranoid and will hex you first, ask question's later.
Need I go on??? Maybe she just created another character to be calm, or there's more there...




kmelissa wrote:



I actually think all of the "similarities" you pointed out are just a matter of semantics. JKR simply used the same adverbs and adjectives and general descriptions (that she commonly uses throughout the books). Otherwise, I see no connection.







yes, we will have to agree to disagree...what you are describing are personality traits. in your previous quote you mixed in personality traits with general descriptions. there is a difference. i think it is apparent that lupin and dumbledore both had reserved personalities--lupin-to serve as a drastic contrast to james and sirius and DD to show his wisdom and age. i don't think it is anything more than that. Also--this comment is not aimed at you directly Tiffany--but i have noticed something-- i think we (myself included) may be starting to exhaust topics on this message board-to the point where we are starting to overanalyze everything in order to come up with new topics--or as in economics, produce negative returns.
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PattyBNUChick
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Re: Could they be related?

Actually, I don't think you can overanalyze JKR's books. I know a number of people on this board would disagree with me, but there are so many tiny hints, we could analyze for another year and come up with more clues that point to new stuff : )



kmelissa wrote:


Proper-T wrote:
I agree to a degree, it could be semantics, there are but so many ways to say certain things. However, JK is a very er... 'wordy' person (as you can see I am not). But to look at the words she chooses to use for Lupin, you can't over look the similarities.

Hagrid does not sigh heavily. When Mr. Weasley is upset at something he gives it away in his voice and his face- a trait he passed to his childrem by the way. Sirius's anger, happiness, or whatever is apparent in his voice as well. Severus never sounds happy... Moody, is paranoid and will hex you first, ask question's later.
Need I go on??? Maybe she just created another character to be calm, or there's more there...




kmelissa wrote:



I actually think all of the "similarities" you pointed out are just a matter of semantics. JKR simply used the same adverbs and adjectives and general descriptions (that she commonly uses throughout the books). Otherwise, I see no connection.







yes, we will have to agree to disagree...what you are describing are personality traits. in your previous quote you mixed in personality traits with general descriptions. there is a difference. i think it is apparent that lupin and dumbledore both had reserved personalities--lupin-to serve as a drastic contrast to james and sirius and DD to show his wisdom and age. i don't think it is anything more than that. Also--this comment is not aimed at you directly Tiffany--but i have noticed something-- i think we (myself included) may be starting to exhaust topics on this message board-to the point where we are starting to overanalyze everything in order to come up with new topics--or as in economics, produce negative returns.


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dcsbelle
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Re: Could they be related?

And it keeps us out of trouble...usually.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PattyBNUChick wrote:
Actually, I don't think you can overanalyze JKR's books. I know a number of people on this board would disagree with me, but there are so many tiny hints, we could analyze for another year and come up with more clues that point to new stuff :
Debbie

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Vixx
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Re: Could they be related?

I have no evidence either way and I doubt it's true but I really love this theory! It's so sweet and nice and a happy thought.
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

[ Edited ]
Don't worry I don't take offense. I know this would be a long shot, but as they're stating in the thread 'Questions for our new guests' if we only looked at stuff that could be proved then we would have exhausted everything. And the boards would be filled with the same stuff. I mean how many Snape boards have we done??? It's just fun to throw something else out there, like McGonagall being evil, Aberforth being a squib, Sirius being that 'awful boy'...

And maybe we are setting ourselves up for negative returns, but my little knowledge of the stock world has always led me to believe that it's the biggest legal gambling ring in the world, and if your hunch on an item turns out to be right, you stand to be one very satisfied individual. And I just can't pass that by :smileywink:



kmelissa wrote: yes, we will have to agree to disagree...what you are describing are personality traits. in your previous quote you mixed in personality traits with general descriptions. there is a difference. i think it is apparent that lupin and dumbledore both had reserved personalities--lupin-to serve as a drastic contrast to james and sirius and DD to show his wisdom and age. i don't think it is anything more than that. Also--this comment is not aimed at you directly Tiffany--but i have noticed something-- i think we (myself included) may be starting to exhaust topics on this message board-to the point where we are starting to overanalyze everything in order to come up with new topics--or as in economics, produce negative returns.

Message Edited by Proper-T on 06-04-200703:41 PM

I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...
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Proper-T
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Re: Could they be related?

Yes I like to think it keeps us out of trouble as well.

And I'm glad you like it Vixx.
I don't think I'm better than you, I just know better...