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Mollywobbles
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Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Prior to the release of DH, there was a lot of conversation on these boards, about Draco. Was he an evil git, was he a product of his upbringing?

Aside from a few comments about the epilogue, nobody has talked much about Draco. Seems to me there were several posters who defended Draco to the hilt.

So what's the deal with Draco? He was still working on the Voldey side in the battle of Hogwarts..took a few shots at Harry in the ROR. Are we satisfied with the way this plot resolved? I'm not.

I hated the part in the epilogue when there was a nod from Draco. I want to see some punishment! I want to see some retribution!
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

You could tell he was really struggling with everything that was going on around him. I think he wanted to show his father he was capable of being like him, but he didn't want to be part of all the evil. I think he tried to do what he could to help Voldemort, but in some less than responsible ways. I think he just wanted to be a tool, no pun intended, to help the deatheaters. When he was pushed forward to do more dasterdly deeds, it scared the jeepers out of him.

I agree that I wanted to see him punished more, or on some different level. And I definitely wanted to see Lucius punished. To see him just sitting in Hogwarts with his wife and son after everything he did, seemed like a slap in the face. I can't say any of the Malfoys were punished enough.
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Psychee
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.


Mollywobbles wrote:
Prior to the release of DH, there was a lot of conversation on these boards, about Draco. Was he an evil git, was he a product of his upbringing?

Aside from a few comments about the epilogue, nobody has talked much about Draco. Seems to me there were several posters who defended Draco to the hilt.

So what's the deal with Draco? He was still working on the Voldey side in the battle of Hogwarts..took a few shots at Harry in the ROR. Are we satisfied with the way this plot resolved? I'm not.

I hated the part in the epilogue when there was a nod from Draco. I want to see some punishment! I want to see some retribution!




I would have liked to see some retribution there, too, but that was not to be. The Malfoys got away scott free (where does that expression come from? lol ). No jail time.

I'm not sure about Draco's sentiments in the RoR, though. I mostly got the impression that he was with Crabbe and Goyle because he thought he had to be with them or else they might turn around and tell Voldemort later that he had switched sides. Many of his actions seemed to be attempts to limit Crabbe and Goyle's destructiveness, but neither of his friends were listening to him. He was no longer their leader.

Personally, I got the impression that he was a man without a side, just trying to survive in any way he could without looking like a coward. I was happy to see, though, that he did seem to have a protective instinct for Crabbe and Goyle when the fire started. He apparently cared about them more than we ever had known up to that point, as we only ever saw him berating them...
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snapessister
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.



Mollywobbles wrote:


I hated the part in the epilogue when there was a nod from Draco. I want to see some punishment! I want to see some retribution!




I think he probably got it too. Who in the workforce would want to hire an ex death eater after what the wizarding world has been through. Sure, he got away with it (meaning he didn't get sent to askaban), but he's going to pay for it for the rest of his life. He deserves it, but I do feel sorry for him because he's not a sadist, he's a kid who loves his family to a falt.
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

I think draco malfoy is just a really spoilt-rotten , obnoxious, semi-stupid kid. Just like how I feel for Dudley. Their ego’s get in the way , oh and just like snape. You know what I mean? His father made him feel little. I remember the quote’ there’s a hole in every child’s soul, in the form of their fathers’… he was a kid. That was all there is to it. He idolized his dad too much. I thought it was all luscius’s fault. If it wasn’t for him, draco and narcissa didn’t have to go through what they had to go through. I thought the ending for the malfoy’s we’re great. (ALTHOUGH I WANTED TO SEE LUSCIUS PUNISHED TO OBLIVION) it depicts reality –the malofy’s are just plain lucky. I imagine, they still had connections in the end. But they’re keeping a low profile this time. Not with kingsley as prime minister.
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Psychee
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Lucius got SOME punishment. He was in Azkaban for a year and then Voldemort took him out so that he could humiliate him all year in front of all the people he always felt superior to. He was beaten up, his face was messed up, his wand was broken, and he lost all respect from anyone. He no longer has any political power.

Now, if they could have only made him forfeit all his money so that he and his family could live in poverty for awhile, I might be satisfied... He should give it to the Weasleys!
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Oh yeah, completely forgot the humiliation luscious got from voldemort stinkbreath. Nah, I was thinking more about real public humiliation, like the whole of Hogwarts binding luscius to the whomping willow and pelt him with disgusting stuff,.. but yeah I guess he got punished.. the end does not justify the means after all
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phrodo41
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

I think that Draco has behaved realistically through the last 2 books. He never seemed to be totally dedicated to either side; he just wanted his family to be safe just like anyone else in his situation.

The curt nod to acknowledge Harry at the end was just about right, I thought. It shows that they would never be good friends, but at least there was a mutual understanding in regards to what both of Harry and Draco have been through.
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ConnieAnnKirk
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

I wanted to see some resolution to the Harry-Draco conflict, more than it just cooling down because they grew up. Seems like their animosity will perpetuate down through their families like it did before with their fathers. Of course, I suppose all conflicts in the books were not going to be solved, but this was a big one for too much of the series to just let it fade away like it did.

~ConnieK
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[CAK's books , website.]
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Psychee
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Funny, but I didn't think it needed more than it got.

Harry and Ron saved Draco's life twice during the Hogwarts battle, and Narcissa saved Harry's.

Draco was ambivalent about Harry at the end and Harry was ambivalent about Draco.

Harry killing off Voldemort saved the Malfoys from continued torture and humiliation by Voldemort.

Harry stopped hating Draco long before the end of the book. His feelings had been replaced by pity.

So I don't think it was age that ended that enmity... I think the events caused both to see eachother with a new perspective. They will never be friends but they are not enemies. Nineteen years later I think they just live in different worlds and don't think about eachother anymore.

I also don't think that their kids will be enemies. Harry's kids aren't celebrities and won't be triggering the kind of intense jealous feelings that Harry triggered in Draco. I suspect they will just be Quidditch rivals...
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agnijay
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Draco is only human. I know that most of you probably aren't from Chicago, but I am. It's kind of like the (s)C(r)ubs-White Sox thing. You just go for whoever is good, like a fair weather fan. And Draco hasn't exactly had the best upbringing either. YOu see his personality coming out when he can't kill DUmbledore. Only than do we know that deep, DEEP down he's a good person. And after all, he IS a Slytherin.
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

You raise some interesting points Psychee. How had Draco lost his leadership position with Crabbe and Goyle? Was it because Lucius was being humiliated by Voldey, and, as children of death eaters, Crabbe and Goyle now felt they didn't have to put up with Draco's superior attitude because the family was essentially disgraced? One of Crabbe or Goyle (can't remember which) actually had lines-previously they just grunted or spoke in monosylables. But, I'm not sure that Draco was with Crabbe & Goyle through fear of them snitching on him. Weren't they looking for the Tiara in the ROR, same as HRH? It seemed perfectly normal that Draco would have Crabbe & Goyle with him to do the grunt work (sorry about that).

Certainly by the middle of HPB, Draco has realized he has bitten off a whole lot more than he can chew. His anger with Harry for causing Lucius' imprisonment has goaded him into joining Voldey, but, like Regulus Black, he realized what a big price tag that decision entailed.

I still found the lack of final resolution between Harry and Draco unsatisfying. The enmity had been there from day one, and had escalated year after year. I know Harry had begun to feel some pity for Draco, but after all those years of animus, I thought it was a tad unrealistic for Harry not to want some kind of payback. I thought Ron's reaction was much more believable (comments like if we die for them, I'll kill you...or, that's twice we've saved your hide..) Yet Harry really took the high road, and that just doesn't seem to ring entirely true. Surely he must have longed to get a little bit of his own back.

Lucius was punished, but that was as a result of Dumbledore capturing him at the MOM-but he only did a year before he was released. I don't know that Narcissa did anything to warrant true punishment-I don't recall her killing or torturing anybody-besides living with Lucius would have been punishment enough-not to mention having a sister like Bella. But Draco should have gotten some comeuppence. He brought about the death of Dumbledore,(even though he didn't cast the AK), he let death eaters into Hogwarts which put all the students in danger, caused injury to Katie and Ron, yet he just skates.

Off on a different tangent, since Harry et al saved Draco, and Narcissa saved Harry by saying he was dead, are there Life Obligations now within this group? Didn't Dumbledore say that saving a Wizards life created some kind of an obligation, and wasn't this borne out with Peter Pettigrew? So how does Draco expunge his life debt to Harry, and has Harry expunged his life debt to Narcissa by saving Draco?



br>



I would have liked to see some retribution there, too, but that was not to be. The Malfoys got away scott free (where does that expression come from? lol ). No jail time.

I'm not sure about Draco's sentiments in the RoR, though. I mostly got the impression that he was with Crabbe and Goyle because he thought he had to be with them or else they might turn around and tell Voldemort later that he had switched sides. Many of his actions seemed to be attempts to limit Crabbe and Goyle's destructiveness, but neither of his friends were listening to him. He was no longer their leader.

Personally, I got the impression that he was a man without a side, just trying to survive in any way he could without looking like a coward. I was happy to see, though, that he did seem to have a protective instinct for Crabbe and Goyle when the fire started. He apparently cared about them more than we ever had known up to that point, as we only ever saw him berating them...

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Psychee
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.


Mollywobbles wrote:
You raise some interesting points Psychee. How had Draco lost his leadership position with Crabbe and Goyle? Was it because Lucius was being humiliated by Voldey, and, as children of death eaters, Crabbe and Goyle now felt they didn't have to put up with Draco's superior attitude because the family was essentially disgraced? One of Crabbe or Goyle (can't remember which) actually had lines-previously they just grunted or spoke in monosylables. But, I'm not sure that Draco was with Crabbe & Goyle through fear of them snitching on him. Weren't they looking for the Tiara in the ROR, same as HRH? It seemed perfectly normal that Draco would have Crabbe & Goyle with him to do the grunt work (sorry about that).




I think Draco lost his influential status with Crabbe and Goyle in a number of ways:

1) His father was no longer powerful and worse, he was being openly humiliated by Voldemort every chance he got.

2) Amicus and Alecta, were part of the in-crowd, and they were teachers at the school. I imagine they gave Draco no special status.

3) Crabbe and Goyle, normally awful students, were shining in the classes offered by the Death Eaters. This would go to their heads and no longer would they feel like second class citizens in the Death Eater camp.

4) Draco had lost his wand to Harry and we all know about boys and their wands, lol... He probably had difficulty getting his mother's wand to perform as well as his old one, at least in the beginning, so he would once again look a bit impotent.


Regarding Harry's forgiveness of Draco... remember that in addition to feeling sorry for Draco in HBP, in DH he had images of Draco being bullied by Voldemort, being forced to do things he didn't have the stomach for. And since he saw it through Voldemort's eyes, and through Voldemort's venomous feelings, for him, it might have felt like he had already tortured Draco vicariously enough for a lifetime.

Regarding Life Obligations... I would imagine that every person who was at the battle of Hogwarts owes their life to someone! But does it really matter? Apparently the only thing it does is to make you think twice about killing the person whom you owe... I doubt that anyone will need to test that in the future...

Regarding your question about the tiara in the RoR, Draco was only interested in it because Harry was and he suspected it had to have been very important to Voldemort. Crabbe and Goyle didn't care about it at all -- they just wanted to torture Harry and bring him to the Dark Lord. It is also possible that Draco used the Diadem interest as a way to distract his hot-headed friends from hurting Harry... He was walking the walk and talking the talk of a DeathEater there in front of Crabbe and Goyle, but I think he was just going through the motions, not really wanting to leave the safety of the castle at all.

As for Draco's punishment which he never got from the Ministry... I imagine his lawyers argued that he was under age at the time of the Tower incident and had been forced to do that under threat of having his parents killed. Harry would also testify that Draco lowered his wand and could not kill Dumbledore. Or maybe he stood up and told the court that "The Devil made me do it!" (remember Flip Wilson? ) :smileyhappy:
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ConnieAnnKirk
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

IMO--More of a conclusion to the Harry/Draco conflict could have helped readers see that long-standing rivalries, enmity, etc. are often there just out of habit and igorance and need not keep going generation after generation. I was hoping for that. I think much of the story developed a subplot between Harry and Draco and led readers to look for more of a conclusion than we got. This kind of thing happened with many of the subplots.

~ConnieK
~ConnieAnnKirk




[CAK's books , website.]
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

.

3) Crabbe and Goyle, normally awful students, were shining in the classes offered by the Death Eaters. This would go to their heads and no longer would they feel like second class citizens in the Death Eater camp.

4) Draco had lost his wand to Harry and we all know about boys and their wands, lol... He probably had difficulty getting his mother's wand to perform as well as his old one, at least in the beginning, so he would once again look a bit impotent.


Regarding Harry's forgiveness of Draco... remember that in addition to feeling sorry for Draco in HBP, in DH he had images of Draco being bullied by Voldemort, being forced to do things he didn't have the stomach for. And since he saw it through Voldemort's eyes, and through Voldemort's venomous feelings, for him, it might have felt like he had already tortured Draco vicariously enough for a lifetime.

Regarding Life Obligations... I would imagine that every person who was at the battle of Hogwarts owes their life to someone! But does it really matter? Apparently the only thing it does is to make you think twice about killing the person whom you owe... I doubt that anyone will need to test that in the future...

Regarding your question about the tiara in the RoR, Draco was only interested in it because Harry was and he suspected it had to have been very important to Voldemort. Crabbe and Goyle didn't care about it at all -- they just wanted to torture Harry and bring him to the Dark Lord. It is also possible that Draco used the Diadem interest as a way to distract his hot-headed friends from hurting Harry... He was walking the walk and talking the talk of a DeathEater there in front of Crabbe and Goyle, but I think he was just going through the motions, not really wanting to leave the safety of the castle at all.

As for Draco's punishment which he never got from the Ministry... I imagine his lawyers argued that he was under age at the time of the Tower incident and had been forced to do that under threat of having his parents killed. Harry would also testify that Draco lowered his wand and could not kill Dumbledore. Or maybe he stood up and told the court that "The Devil made me do it!" (remember Flip Wilson? ) :smileyhappy:





Again, all good points. Further, Draco had been smarting for a year because Slughorn praised Harry's potions skills and virtually ignored Draco, both in class, and at his little soirees.

I'm not sure about your comment that Draco didn't want to leave the safety of the castle, however. Didn't he exit the building with all the other slimy Slytherins, but sneak back in? He must have had a reason to do so, otherwise, he could have just joined mom and dad on the outside. That's why I thought he had been sent after the tiara. Perhaps I'm getting the timeline mixed up. There was the initial salvo, then a pause, then resumption of battle. I can't remember when the students were given the opportunity to leave, or stay and fight. Perhaps this was after the scene in the RoR.

Yes, I do remember Flip Wilson's The Devil made me do it!:smileyhappy: Didn't that start on Laugh-in, and continue on to his own series? Loved him in the blonde wig :smileyhappy:
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

By the way, loved the expression...Voldemort's venomous feelings!
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Mollywobbles
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.

Well, like Filch in the movie (COS, I think) not the book, I wanted to see some punishment! Draco did so many rotten things, and while I agree he suffered many tortures once he joined the Voldemort camp, he did, after all bring it on himself. Like Regulus, he joined up voluntarily, but unlike Regulus who also had a change of heart, Draco emerged without any further punishment. Just doesn't seem sufficient. I also would have felt happier with some kind of a personal confrontation between Harry and Draco, one on one. The enmity between the two was such a huge part of all the books, that I thought there would be something a little more definitive in the conclusion.




ConnieK wrote:
IMO--More of a conclusion to the Harry/Draco conflict could have helped readers see that long-standing rivalries, enmity, etc. are often there just out of habit and igorance and need not keep going generation after generation. I was hoping for that. I think much of the story developed a subplot between Harry and Draco and led readers to look for more of a conclusion than we got. This kind of thing happened with many of the subplots.

~ConnieK


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Psychee
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.



Mollywobbles wrote:
I'm not sure about your comment that Draco didn't want to leave the safety of the castle, however. Didn't he exit the building with all the other slimy Slytherins, but sneak back in? He must have had a reason to do so, otherwise, he could have just joined mom and dad on the outside. That's why I thought he had been sent after the tiara. Perhaps I'm getting the timeline mixed up. There was the initial salvo, then a pause, then resumption of battle. I can't remember when the students were given the opportunity to leave, or stay and fight. Perhaps this was after the scene in the RoR.

Yes, I do remember Flip Wilson's The Devil made me do it!:smileyhappy: Didn't that start on Laugh-in, and continue on to his own series? Loved him in the blonde wig :smileyhappy:




No one knew about the tiara except Voldemort, who wouldn't have told anyone, and the trio. Draco and his cronies were invisible outside the RoR when the trio were discussing the diadem, and that's how Draco learned about it, but he had no idea what it was. It just sounded important.

I imagine Draco either left and came back or otherwise stayed aside with Crabbe and Goyle and never left the castle. Crabbe and Goyle wanted to get Harry for Voldemort (like Pansy Parkinson had wanted to earlier) and be heros, and assuming that Draco was with them when they had that bright idea, he would have stayed with them.

I had the notion, though, and this was purely a guess on my part, that Draco would not have wanted to leave the castle and join his parents because they were with Voldemort, and Draco didn't want to be anywhere near His Snakeness because all the guy ever did was torment him. Alternatively, he would have had to join the battle, and I can't see him wanting to do that, either. So the notion of staying in the castle would have appealed to him -- going along with Crabbe and Goyle would in turn give him cover should Voldemort win the battle and then ask why Draco didn't come out to fight. Those were just my personal thoughts, though, based on the premise that Draco was a bit cowardly and terribly ambivalent about supporting Voldemort anymore.

Off Topic -- "You bet your sweet bippy!" Yes, Flip Wilson started his "Geraldine" thing on Laugh-In... That wig was classic... :smileyhappy:
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hihi
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.



Kreacherteacher wrote:
You could tell he was really struggling with everything that was going on around him. I think he wanted to show his father he was capable of being like him, but he didn't want to be part of all the evil. I think he tried to do what he could to help Voldemort, but in some less than responsible ways. I think he just wanted to be a tool, no pun intended, to help the deatheaters. When he was pushed forward to do more dasterdly deeds, it scared the jeepers out of him.

I agree that I wanted to see him punished more, or on some different level. And I definitely wanted to see Lucius punished. To see him just sitting in Hogwarts with his wife and son after everything he did, seemed like a slap in the face. I can't say any of the Malfoys were punished enough.






Hi ya'll! I'm back and ready to discuss some more. Sorry for my absence over the past months, everything has been really busy. Kreacherteacher, I agree with you in some ways. Draco reminds me of the kid (we all have had them) that wants to live up to his fathers name. The one whose father has like a family buisness, adn wants his son to be a part of, though his son doesn't want to. in this case, I think Draco thought that being bad was cool, until of course, he had to kill DD (which he didn't) and when Voldemort killed Proffesor Bourbage.
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mrsronaldweasley
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Re: Draco Malfoy, dupe, or dope.kinda off topic

Ok, who’s a better kid? Who would you pick?
Draco? Or Dudley?
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