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ABI
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ABI
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

See?? This is EXACTLY my point! She better be careful... she's treading on unsafe territory here...and it's affecting us now.

But what I meant to say is, Auror, I don't think your anti-gay. My parents certainly weren't, but I myself wouldn't have known there was such thing as being gay, had I not been introduced to the all powerful information source, as you specified, the MEDIA. I'm thinking perhaps you overestimate our time.. I know TOO MANY people who ARE honestly anti-gay. And I am completely torn apart by this notion, and have ultimately sworn myself against them. Most of these are actually kids. Too bad living in 2007 isn't all that we brag......... usa **%*$^%#!!!! sorry - don't kill me, can't help myself. ............my point being, I'm starting to seriously doubt, asI wasn't yesterday, Jo's pretence for unveiling this...:smileysad:
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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Auror_in_Training
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

I agree with that, I wish this was a thought she'd kept to herself. I just don't know how to explain my position on this matter. I simply wish people would keep their person preferences to themselves and their immediate sphere. Sex or Sexuality is not for public consumption.
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]
Thanks for the thought, b-a! :smileywink: I have had difficulties with these interviews since the first one in July. Maybe years from now they wouldn't bother me so much. Certainly, hearing little tidbits like this from the author 10 or more years from now would be fun in many ways. But, see, to me that's because readers would have had some time to digest the series for themselves, on their own, re-read, think about it, discuss it over lots and lots of time with other readers, etc., you know? There would have been a respectful time for readers if this information were released much, much later (if at all). These comments days and weeks and months after the last book was published just seem irresponsible to me--a kind of disrespect of readers and an effort to maintain control over their reading experience and interpretations. In relation to this particular detail, JKR is quoted as laughing and saying, "You needed something to keep you going for the next 10 years." I understand the playfulness of this in terms of fan frenzy, etc., but I still come back to the thought--shouldn't the books themselves do that?

~ConnieK



b-a wrote:
Connie, I have to say you were the first person I thought of when I heard this revelation. I have kind of stopped listening to what JKR has said post-DH for various reasons. In hindsight, I wish I didn't know what she had said or hinted about after the other books because it had me expecting things for Book 7 which left me disappointed when they were neglected, omitted, or left unresolved, (or were Ginny *shakes head with disappointment*). With the other books I had never paid any attention to the rumors and information so I always got to enjoy and be surprised by the books on their own merit, free from expectation. I do agree with you--if she wanted all of this information in there then she should have written it into the books. Part of the fun IS in the not knowing and speculation. I do think she is kind of ruining it by telling us so much--setting us up for disapointment when what we read doesn't jive with what JKR is telling us (Neville and Hannah? um, okay...).
It did cross my mind that DD might be gay and I do like it for the reasons that someone (forget who) stated above about well basically teaching tolerance, but again, it should have been a part of the books. Yes, think it was very lightly hinted at within the series, but still...it was only VERRRY subtly hinted at. Again, I agree with you Connie. Wish this stuff was in the books instead of outside of it.
Just my humble opinion.



Message Edited by ConnieK on 10-22-2007 09:39 AM
~ConnieAnnKirk




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Re: Dumbledore gay???

Welcome, joshua2017--Thanks for your perspective!

~ConnieK



joshua2017 wrote:
Well, it's okay to be gay, and I can of like it - and now we have a new gay hero (fictional) - Dumbledore, all those straight men have superman, batman and such crap - Gay people have the smartest, most intelligent and intellectual wizard - DUMBLEDORE.

And, I like the way Dumbledore acts in the books, he acts like a normal person, straight or gay, he is not some stupid stereotypical gay nuttcase like Chris Crocker, nope, Dumbledore acts like me, and my gay friends, he is into music, (chambermusic), and he likes to read - he is a typical gay DUDE :-P


~ConnieAnnKirk




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kraziekatie24
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

i totally called that
it was one of my predictions!!!!!
______________________________________________________________

-Kate

Hey Stephen, I could give you fifty reasons why I should be the one you chose. Those other girls, well, they're beautiful, but would they write a song for you?

hisgoldeneyesmesmorizedme

book nerd. music freak. movie fanatic.
major obsesser over so many things.

I love to read and write poetry/lyrics and short stories. The layers of music fascinates me. Someday, I want to do movie soundtracks, maybe, or teach. The book to movie transition fascinates me to the extreme. I've been mesmorized by the way Harry Potter and Twilight and so many others have been brought into movies is something I think I would love to do.
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Kreacherteacher
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]
When I duscuss reading with my students, I tell them that, first and foremost, it needs to be meaningful to them; not to their neighbor, not to their parents, not to the author even. Reading is going into a world and living through the lives created for us to enjoy and understand. That said, I have never discussed HP books at length as they have never been part of our class readings. But that's because most kids have read them. I do discuss characters and plot elements to compare or contrast with other books, but I don't really talk about HP. Furthermore, I made the point before as well as someone else, that Tolkien did this with his books about Middle Earth. Now we are quite separated from the time that he wrote these books (I think he wrote them mid 1900's), and it doesn't seem to bother anyone about these books and the backstory that was provided. Perhaps that is due to the time element as you stated.

As for me, I don't think all of these additional facts will confuse readers. What I do think it will do is possibly make them want to reread the books. HP books are very simplistic. Yes, there are many, many subplots, but they are still very simplistic, and in this case, I think kids will not have any comprehension issues.

I have had problems in comprehension of songs or poems as lyric poetry is really hard for me to comprehend sometimes. I don't know really know why either. Maybe because there tends to be more abstract thought, and I just prefer concrete thoughts. So there have been songs that I have found out later mean something completely different. At first, it bothered me. I thought, "No way could the songwriter mean that!" However, I did finally come around to see how it could fit, but to this day I still prefer my own interpretations. One of the songs is "Tyler" by The Toadies (now defunct group). Apparently the song is about a voyeur/possible rapist. I just thought it was a great love song with some pretty strong feelings!

Our kids are developing their thinking skills. Of course they are going to make mistakes in interpretations. This is not bad, and it is part of the process of learning. Will they lose confidence? I think they would if it happens over and over again. But is Jo responsible for that by bringing more info out? No. If kids consistently have comprehension issues, then something else is going on and should be diagnosed and treated. I am of the mindset that it is also great for kids when we show them what we were/are thinking about something, and how way off the mark we can be. That will give them confidence. They can then realize they are not alone, and that everyone makes mistakes. We just need to calibrate our thinking.

The following is for all readers:
I can't seem to say this enough to everyone...Jo only said that she had always "thought" of DD as gay. She is sharing what she thinks, not what was ever on paper. You have to realize that this may not even make it into the encyclopedia when written. It was only given to David Yates because he had some reference to DD and a woman. Perhaps we should take a breather here and relax a bit. I don't think my saying that I am okay with it is any reflection of me being young (ehich I am not), not having a moral compass, or standing up for values. How ridiculous. It is simply me not being judgemental. That is not my job, and I refuse to marginalize people, or push them away from the "norms" of society based on their sexual orientation. I've always thought moral compasses were crap anyway! That's not mine to set, but God. And I don't know about any of you, but I certainly haven't been on some committee of his to set it for the rest of us. How about a human compass?! Furthermore, you can put the term "politically correct" in the trash as well. I'd rather be humanely correct!



ConnieK wrote:
In your teaching, Kreacherteacher, how would it affect your discussion of books the children have read to have all these interview notes, etc. outside of the books? Let's say you're in a class that can talk about Book 1 or all 7 (perhaps unlikely all 7 in the lower grades, I realize). We have all these interview notes. Do you bring them into the classroom discussion about the books or encourage the children to offer their own interpretations of the novels as readers first and leave the notes out? If these notes come to these young readers' attentions later, don't you think there would be an impulse to think, "Oh, I guess I was wrong about such-and-such because the AUTHOR says it was this way and not that way, as I read it." Do you see what I mean? I agree with you about having interpretations challenged for learning and growing. I encourage that all the time in my college lit. classes. What I'm questioning is the presumed "authority" of the author over the text the readers read that these interviews are encouraging. The author will always come off as the ultimate authority to some readers (I actually love authors who say things to readers like, "Oh, my gosh--is that in there? Wonderful that you saw that--I never noticed!" In other words, they create the story and then let go of it and are as delighted as anyone when readers find surprising details or interpretations in it). I'm afraid young readers (who presumably haven't yet gained that confidence mature readers have for separating out interpretations as you mention here) will say, "Oh, I didn't read that *right* because the *author* herself says it's the opposite of what I was thinking."

I guess one of the questions I'm asking is: Isn't this author interfering in readers' territories at this point, trying to influence interpretations outside of the text of the books by continually offering "new" information that keeps the "facts" of the story in flux? An adult reader may say, "She can argue this fact all she wants, but it just isn't evident in the actual story she eventually wrote and published," but a young reader may say, "Where in the book does it say this? I can't find it, but the author says it's in there, so I must be a bad reader." This concerns me.

~ConnieK






Message Edited by Kreacherteacher on 10-22-2007 04:17 PM
ABI
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



Auror_in_Training wrote:
I agree with that, I wish this was a thought she'd kept to herself. I just don't know how to explain my position on this matter. I simply wish people would keep their person preferences to themselves and their immediate sphere. Sex or Sexuality is not for public consumption.


Glad no one killed me for that one remark...

Auror, whatever you might think, the fact is, that sex and sexuality happen to be exactly what makes up our society, media, and over all lives. I shouldn't say "makes up," that's not what I mean. But you can't deny it plays a major part, whether we like it or not.

I'd still like to see her unveiling of this as the unveiling of a simple fact. I do. But unfortunately, in the society we live in, simple facts are taken to literal levels, and this will cause and uproar of over-reactions. I see nothing immediately wrong in telling us, but am worried about the affect following this immediacy.
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

OMG i thot my mom was messin with me when she told me about it. she heard it on the news, n im just now gettin a chance to look it all up for myself.

im am honsetly appalled at this..i have never really been able to express how i feel about homosexuality except for disgust..and i really do not mean to offend anybody when i say that. it is a topic i can become very rude about, so i will not discuss it in great detail.

i could have done without that bit of info about DD. it was not needed. (and whoever it is that keeps sayin that my man sirius is gay needs to get it together.) i think some of yall r sickos though for implying that DD may have tried stuff with the students..even if ur joking..news flash! its not funny.

i still love DD and the books..but i know this will taint how i read them from now on. everytime i read about him with another guy im gonna be wonderin wut was DD really thinkin about? which is not what i want out of my books. i had planned on passing my love of the HP world to my nephews..but now idk..it will be hard for me to do that... it kinda sux..i really wish JKR woulda kept her mouth shut about it. she has ruined one of the things i liked about the books so much.. that there was romance without it being overly sexual.

i am glad that i read the entire series before finding this out. i will have my memories of blissful ignorance at least.

PS: Hi to everybody who remembers me from a while back!!!
Julie
ABI
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ABI
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

ughhh. sorry. avoiding a certain topic... Welcome back Julie!
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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halfscripts
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

I think I've given the wrong impression in my replies- rereading my comments so far, I sound a lot more annoyed with this than I really am. I think I'm more disappointed in this more than anything else- not that Dumbledore is gay, but because it was only "allowed" to be vaguely hinted at and could only really be a fact three months after the book had come out. I can understand her not wanting the information to take away from the rest of the plot but who said it had to? I think it's the WAY the information was put out there that irritates me more than anything else- like, okay who cares if he's gay? It's as unimportant to the plot whether or not Dumbledore was gay as whether or not McGongall (I'm butchering the spelling. I know :\) was straight.

And now that I've gone back and thought about it, the whole unrequited love affair thing sort of explains why Dumbledore seemed so sad to me throughout the whole series. Aside from the whole sacrificing Harry Potter to save the world thing.


Is it too early to draw Lily/Snape comparisons?

Oh, how wrong we were to think that immortality meant never dying.
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Solitud
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



Kreacherteacher wrote:
What do you mean by mannerisms? Do you mean to make him more picturesque in his gayness? That is not what his character is about. His sexuality does not define him just as it doesn't or shouldn't define anyone. Michael Gambon has played another gay character in the movie "The Good Shepherd", and I didn't think he had any overtly gay mannerisms. We can't and shouldn't play to stereotypes. Sorry if I misunderstood your post.



Solitud wrote: the face I'd love to see is Michael Gambon's!!! Maybe now he'll give the character some mannerisms







I didn't mean anything serious (much less offensive) with the comment, but if we want to look seriously at the idea then we can consider what a Hollywood director would want to do with this information. You have seen how they have changed Hogwarts grounds and how the cinematography has gone darker, almost colorless when I think it could be brighter for some happier scenes. You see how they put Hermione's words out of Ron's mouth, and how they made Cho a tattler (even if it was unintentional from her part). A Hollywood director (whoever does the 7th) could very well want to appeal to the gay community and make him a little more "defined" or obvious. Perhaps they do that with those memories of Aberforth as he is telling the story of how DD and GG were friends, perhaps they throw the hint of DD's true feelings toward GG in that moment. Don't you agree some director could do that?

Now, since I was trying to joke about it all, I imagined Michael Gambon's interpretation more like that extremely gay guy in the TV show "Will and Grace" (forgot his name). What do you think Jo meant when she said something about "the fanfiction!"? Some can make big drama kind of things others will make comedic kind of things... I go for the comedy! That is because life is too serious to take it too seriously.

On more anecdotal kind of thoughts: I agree that lots of people have mannerisms and are not homosexual, and lots of others do not have any and couldn't be more homosexual. Throughout my life I've met quite a few homosexuals: some have become great friends, others I disliked big time, the same I can say about lots of heterosexual people. If anyone of them asked me what I believe of homosexuality I'll tell them, but that does not mean I hate them as people. Jesus told us to love our neighbor like ourselves. The Bible also tells us not to judge others because in the same way we'll be judged. We don't' know all the facts, we don't' know what's in other's minds, hearts or genome. We should make sure of what is in our own minds, hearts and ... well, the genes will have to wait!

Sorry if I've gone a little off the train of thoughts of the thread but I wanted to make sure no one feels like "there is a homophobic here"
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



jftapia88 wrote:


im am honsetly appalled at this..i have never really been able to express how i feel about homosexuality except for disgust..and i really do not mean to offend anybody when i say that. it is a topic i can become very rude about, so i will not discuss it in great detail.






Isn't that kind of like telling someone they look fat in those jeans, but then saying "oh, but I don't mean to offend you". Doesn't that seem like a bit of a contradiction? Even if you don't "mean to offend" people with comments like that, you still end up offending them.

I am not saying you are a horrible person for feeling discusted by homosexuality, it is obvious by this thread that it is a very controversial subject, but I am saying that if you don't want to offend people, do not voice that it discusts you.
"Who's that little old man?
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ABI
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ABI
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]

tigerlilly wrote:


jftapia88 wrote:


im am honsetly appalled at this..i have never really been able to express how i feel about homosexuality except for disgust..and i really do not mean to offend anybody when i say that. it is a topic i can become very rude about, so i will not discuss it in great detail.






Isn't that kind of like telling someone they look fat in those jeans, but then saying "oh, but I don't mean to offend you". Doesn't that seem like a bit of a contradiction? Even if you don't "mean to offend" people with comments like that, you still end up offending them.

I am not saying you are a horrible person for feeling discusted by homosexuality, it is obvious by this thread that it is a very controversial subject, but I am saying that if you don't want to offend people, do not voice that it discusts you.




Okay, seriously, I'm boring you with my posts. So this is my last post - for the day. Tigerlilly, I doubt it is the best idea to start this debate here. I LOVE to talk political. But as you can see, I'm **attempting** to refrain from doing so.

Connie would kill us. :smileyhappy:

BN should have a political board by the way...hm. not sure how great that would go. But it would be interesting.

(Don't misunderstand me, though. I completely agree with you. **ahem** sorry.)

Message Edited by ABI on 10-22-2007 07:52 PM
"There is nothing easier than self-deceit."
"Bombing for peace is like f***ing for virginity"
"There is no such thing as death, only the absence of life."
"There is no end, unless you let it."
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halfscripts
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



jftapia88 wrote:
OMG i thot my mom was messin with me when she told me about it. she heard it on the news, n im just now gettin a chance to look it all up for myself.

im am honsetly appalled at this..i have never really been able to express how i feel about homosexuality except for disgust..and i really do not mean to offend anybody when i say that. it is a topic i can become very rude about, so i will not discuss it in great detail.

i could have done without that bit of info about DD. it was not needed. (and whoever it is that keeps sayin that my man sirius is gay needs to get it together.) i think some of yall r sickos though for implying that DD may have tried stuff with the students..even if ur joking..news flash! its not funny.

i still love DD and the books..but i know this will taint how i read them from now on. everytime i read about him with another guy im gonna be wonderin wut was DD really thinkin about? which is not what i want out of my books. i had planned on passing my love of the HP world to my nephews..but now idk..it will be hard for me to do that... it kinda sux..i really wish JKR woulda kept her mouth shut about it. she has ruined one of the things i liked about the books so much.. that there was romance without it being overly sexual.

i am glad that i read the entire series before finding this out. i will have my memories of blissful ignorance at least.

PS: Hi to everybody who remembers me from a while back!!!




..I agree with what tigerlilly said, saying that homosexuality disgusts you and then following it up with "oh but i don't want to offend anyone" is hypocritical. Ignorance always offends.

Also I seem to have missed the part where they went back and re-edited the series so that Dumbledore was off having sex with men rather than destroying Horocruxes. Because I can't think of any other way that the series can suddenly be "sexual", as you said.

Oh, how wrong we were to think that immortality meant never dying.
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tigerlilly
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Re: Dumbledore gay???



Kreacherteacher wrote:
.

As for me, I don't think all of these additional facts will confuse readers. What I do think it will do is possibly make them want to reread the books. HP books are very simplistic. Yes, there are many, many subplots, but they are still very simplistic, and in this case, I think kids will not have any comprehension issues.

I have had problems in comprehension of songs or poems as lyric poetry is really hard for me to comprehend sometimes. I don't know really know why either. Maybe because there tends to be more abstract thought, and I just prefer concrete thoughts. So there have been songs that I have found out later mean something completely different. At first, it bothered me. I thought, "No way could the songwriter mean that!" However, I did finally come around to see how it could fit, but to this day I still prefer my own interpretations. One of the songs is "Tyler" by The Toadies (now defunct group). Apparently the song is about a voyeur/possible rapist. I just thought it was a great love song with some pretty strong feelings!

:
I can't seem to say this enough to everyone...Jo only said that she had always "thought" of DD as gay. She is sharing what she thinks, not what was ever on paper. You have to realize that this may not even make it into the encyclopedia when written. It was only given to David Yates because he had some reference to DD and a woman. Perhaps we should take a breather here and relax a bit. I don't think my saying that I am okay with it is any reflection of me being young (ehich I am not), not having a moral compass, or standing up for values. How ridiculous. It is simply me not being judgemental. That is not my job, and I refuse to marginalize people, or push them away from the "norms" of society based on their sexual orientation. I've always thought moral compasses were crap anyway! That's not mine to set, but God. And I don't know about any of you, but I certainly haven't been on some committee of his to set it for the rest of us. How about a human compass?! Furthermore, you can put the term "politically correct" in the trash as well. I'd rather be humanely correct!





Oh, Kreacherteacher, you've got it going on, you are on fire!!!
I couldn't agree with you more. You've said everything I would have wanted to say, except you said it with calm, eloquent, conviction. You are my hero.

I know what you mean about the song interpretation thing. I do that all the time too. And, like you, I stick with my interpretation of the song, as opposed to the artist's view. I think you can apply that same logic to the HP books.

Maybe you don't like the idea of a gay DD. If it really irks you and you can't read the books the same way , then , I beg you all, just stick with your interpretation of DD's character. As Kreacherteacher said before, Jo only said she THOUGHT of DD as gay. So give yourself a little more credit and realize that the books can still mean as much to you as they always have, no matter what you find out later. It's like the song Kreacherteacher was talking about. Who cares what other people say, even if it is the author or artist or whatever! Like many of you have said already, the books have taken on a life of their own. If you really believe this, than there shouldn't be a problem.

And I really don't think that Jo is trying to be an almighty controller of the books by telling us stuff like she tought of DD as gay. Think about it, her whole life has been these books for over ten years. Now, she is finally at a point in her life where she can really discuss it with everyone. After that many years of silence and stealthiness, don't you think you'd be bursting to talk about this story, this world? Don't get upset with Jo, she has the right to express her views just like anyone else.
"Who's that little old man?
PAUL'S GRANDFATHER!"
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tigerlilly
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

Halfscripts, you seriously made me giggle with that last post. But, ABI is right, we can't start this debate here(even though I really want to). But no, we must practice restraint, young grasshopper, only then can we catch the fly! Or something like that. Hope you get what I meant by that, because I sure didn't.

jftapia88, truce?
"Who's that little old man?
PAUL'S GRANDFATHER!"
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

LOL tigerlilly. Thank you! However, I did say the word "crap" and I am not sure that is all that eloquent, but I'll take the compliment anyway.
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Re: Dumbledore gay???

Thanks for your perspective on HP, young readers, and interpretation, Kreacherteacher!

~ConnieK



Kreacherteacher wrote:
When I duscuss reading with my students, I tell them that, first and foremost, it needs to be meaningful to them; not to their neighbor, not to their parents, not to the author even. Reading is going into a world and living through the lives created for us to enjoy and understand. That said, I have never discussed HP books at length as they have never been part of our class readings. But that's because most kids have read them. I do discuss characters and plot elements to compare or contrast with other books, but I don't really talk about HP. br>

~ConnieAnnKirk




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Re: Dumbledore gay???

[ Edited ]
It bears reminding in this thread, I think, that per Barnes & Noble.com policy, let's not see any bashing or harrassment of any groups of people in this forum. If readers see anything questionable in this regard that may have been overlooked, please do bring it to the moderators', editors', and/or administrators' attentions through a private message or through use of the "report abuse" button. The book clubs are a place for safe and enjoyable discussion of books.

Thank you!

~ConnieK

Message Edited by ConnieK on 10-22-2007 08:27 PM
~ConnieAnnKirk




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Re: Dumbledore gay???

My pleasure Connie. I am not sure I answered your question as I think it is such a subjective issue. Also, your comments are well taken and great food for thought. I will keep an ear/eye out in class for questions of this nature.